Anyone else annoyed?

[Aheadatime]

I keep hearing about these "deeming regulations" and how they're right around the corner. The fact that some type of regulation will occur is inevitable imo, which I was hoping to boil down to "you can't sell to minors and you have to pay a small tax". But it seems like even dirtier things are going on. Bust out the tin foil hats, but I'm pretty sure the FDA plans on targeting the flavors themselves.

In 2009 the federal government banned flavored cigarettes because they said that kids wanted them (where are the parents). Now, after reading some articles here and there, I'm beginning to think they might try the same thing with ecigs. I'm also under the suspicion that corporate tobacco is ready for this switch, and is getting their hand involved in the cigalikes simply for profit margin (which usually only come in tobacco and menthol, flavors highly unlikely to be banned). I dunno exactly what the regulations will be, or if they'll delay (again), but I do know that this whole debate has me annoyed to no end. I've been a member of CASAA for a while now, but if these regulations are too harsh and over reaching, I'll be contacting my reps.

States Urge FDA to Regulate E-Cigarettes - WSJ.com

"The attorneys general expressed concern that e-cigarettes are marketed on prime-time TV, 'making it easier for those advertisements to reach children.' It noted some manufacturers pitch e-cigarettes with the help of cartoon characters such as monkeys, years after makers of traditional cigarettes were banned from using cartoons in advertising. They said e-cigarette flavors such as gummy bear and bubble gum appeal to youth."

 

[Rocketpunk]

Nothing's going anywhere. The worst thing that could happen is you might have to pay a little more for juice. If you have a local B&M that's active in the national vaping community, just ask them if they're nervous. They're probably not. No need to get annoyed.

 

[Tvan]

I've been a member of CASAA for a while now, but if these regulations are too harsh and over reaching, I'll be contacting my reps.

Now is the time.

 

[Whosback]

This is why we have organizations like the CASAA, even if you do not wish to join as a member they use this forum as a way of giving us a heads up when regulations are being considered or laws are being debated. We have managed to make differences already. Get some good people on our side and have made good changes.

Check um out on the forum. They do a great job of giving us a singular voice and they also have links to actual studies that have been done. Facts are on our side in this.

 

[retired1]

Moved to Media and General News.

 

[Petrodus]

Yeah ... Contact your reps ... Let us know how that went !!

 

[Spazmelda]

I wrote to my senator about ecigs, and I got an email back thanking me for my email about the government shut down and assuring me that he was doing everything possible in that matter. @@.

 

[OldDragon]

so he missed the e-cig thing??

 

[Uma]

It's our job, as free citizens in a free world, to annoy those, who rule over us with iron fists and injustice, to the point they are even more annoyed than we are.

Fight. If not for yourself, then for your future generations.

 

[2coils]

I keep hearing about these "deeming regulations" and how they're right around the corner. The fact that some type of regulation will occur is inevitable imo, which I was hoping to boil down to "you can't sell to minors and you have to pay a small tax". But it seems like even dirtier things are going on. Bust out the tin foil hats, but I'm pretty sure the FDA plans on targeting the flavors themselves.

In 2009 the federal government banned flavored cigarettes because they said that kids wanted them (where are the parents). Now, after reading some articles here and there, I'm beginning to think they might try the same thing with ecigs. I'm also under the suspicion that corporate tobacco is ready for this switch, and is getting their hand involved in the cigalikes simply for profit margin (which usually only come in tobacco and menthol, flavors highly unlikely to be banned). I dunno exactly what the regulations will be, or if they'll delay (again), but I do know that this whole debate has me annoyed to no end. I've been a member of CASAA for a while now, but if these regulations are too harsh and over reaching, I'll be contacting my reps.

States Urge FDA to Regulate E-Cigarettes - WSJ.com

"The attorneys general expressed concern that e-cigarettes are marketed on prime-time TV, 'making it easier for those advertisements to reach children.' It noted some manufacturers pitch e-cigarettes with the help of cartoon characters such as monkeys, years after makers of traditional cigarettes were banned from using cartoons in advertising. They said e-cigarette flavors such as gummy bear and bubble gum appeal to youth."

You have EVERY reason to be annoyed and worried. The number one reason we may not get a desirable outcome, is due to the lack of vendors not getting involved! Same could be said for some vapers.

I just finished listening to a replay of Click Bang (a vaping podcast/radio show). They were talking about some idiot that made a video walking down the toy section of a department store, with a sub-ohm set-up, blowing plumes of vapor in the toy isle. This can do the community no good for obvious reasons. As for those who don't believe there is a looming devastation out there for the e-cig industry, please rethink your position and help preserve vaping in its current state. All the evidence throughout the world should be enough to have EVERYONE worried!

 

[Bob Chill]

We have been in an overreaching regulatory environment since the economic crash. The Government only knows how to go too far right now. I owned a long standing company that got devastated and closed by the Dodd/Frank bill. We all knew it "was going to be different" but once the bill passed it became painfully obvious that "going to be different" meant "going out of business". Virtually all of the small guys vanished over the ensuing 2 years. Who was left? The BIG guys.

The ecig industry has been spared for years due partly to some good luck but most importantly because it was too small and too unknown to really worry much about. Public, Gov, and Corp awareness is pretty wide open right now and the industry is poised to grow beyon $2Byr. It a pretty ripe time to drop the hammer with support from a lot of different interests.

The comparison to what happened to my business in 2009 is not apples to apples but it hits pretty close to home in some ways. I've already seen upclose and personal what "bad and far reaching" regulation can do. And it does happen virtually overnight. All we can do is speculate right now. Some things are obvious like age restrictions and taxation. Other things like products and supply channels are much more complicated and unknown. But expecting a soft blow is a mistake. Complacency in this case will likely lead to many folks looking like a deer in headlights if one of the worst case scenarios plays out.

 

[rothenbj]

We have been in an overreaching regulatory environment since the economic crash. The Government only knows how to go too far right now. I owned a long standing company that got devastated and closed by the Dodd/Frank bill. We all knew it "was going to be different" but once the bill passed it became painfully obvious that "going to be different" meant "going out of business". Virtually all of the small guys vanished over the ensuing 2 years. Who was left? The BIG guys.

The ecig industry has been spared for years due partly to some good luck but most importantly because it was too small and too unknown to really worry much about. Public, Gov, and Corp awareness is pretty wide open right now and the industry is poised to grow beyon $2Byr. It a pretty ripe time to drop the hammer with support from a lot of different interests.

The comparison to what happened to my business in 2009 is not apples to apples but it hits pretty close to home in some ways. I've already seen upclose and personal what "bad and far reaching" regulation can do. And it does happen virtually overnight. All we can do is speculate right now. Some things are obvious like age restrictions and taxation. Other things like products and supply channels are much more complicated and unknown. But expecting a soft blow is a mistake. Complacency in this case will likely lead to many folks looking like a deer in headlights if one of the worst case scenarios plays out.

Well stated. Hopefully, a lot of people are listening from consumers to vendors. Taking money out of the pockets of Big Business and Government is never favorably looked upon and readily get squashed.

 

[Tray475]

The worst part from what I'm reading is that they are gonna make it very hard for the little guy to produce e-juice all those great flavor and boutique style shops will prolly be shut down in my job I work with FDA often and they are nothing to play with they need financing and how they get it is by setting ridiculous fines and ridiculous inspections they will even fine you for having dust bunnies on your warehouse floor.


Tray475

 

[Valhalla17]

It's our job, as free citizens in a free world, to annoy those, who rule over us with iron fists and injustice, to the point they are even more annoyed than we are.

Fight. If not for yourself, then for your future generations.

And this is why Uma is my hero.

 

[Valhalla17]

We have been in an overreaching regulatory environment since the economic crash. The Government only knows how to go too far right now. I owned a long standing company that got devastated and closed by the Dodd/Frank bill. We all knew it "was going to be different" but once the bill passed it became painfully obvious that "going to be different" meant "going out of business". Virtually all of the small guys vanished over the ensuing 2 years. Who was left? The BIG guys.

The ecig industry has been spared for years due partly to some good luck but most importantly because it was too small and too unknown to really worry much about. Public, Gov, and Corp awareness is pretty wide open right now and the industry is poised to grow beyon $2Byr. It a pretty ripe time to drop the hammer with support from a lot of different interests.

The comparison to what happened to my business in 2009 is not apples to apples but it hits pretty close to home in some ways. I've already seen upclose and personal what "bad and far reaching" regulation can do. And it does happen virtually overnight. All we can do is speculate right now. Some things are obvious like age restrictions and taxation. Other things like products and supply channels are much more complicated and unknown. But expecting a soft blow is a mistake. Complacency in this case will likely lead to many folks looking like a deer in headlights if one of the worst case scenarios plays out.

Exactly, what is the reason for any restriction on the ecig industry? I mean really, there is zero evidence of harm, zero reason to regulate and tax another industry into the ground. They talk on one hand about stimulating the economy then they tax and restrict which does the opposite of that. Someone earlier said the worse that will happen is we will pay a little more for ejuice. And why would you believe that? They are in phase 1, the propaganda campaign. Next will be the regulation and taxes. Why would it be OK if they JUST tax ejuice? It isn't their product to tax, not their business to regulate and everything we own isn't theirs to screw with. Here's an idea, quite screwing with honest, law abiding people, pass a budget and adhere to it and fix the problems the actually exist. Most of which were created by decades of fiscal mismanagement of the government itself. So how is it again that they think they are qualified to decide what is best for us?

 

[Tvan]

Exactly, what is the reason for any restriction on the ecig industry? I mean really, there is zero evidence of harm, zero reason to regulate and tax another industry into the ground. They talk on one hand about stimulating the economy then they tax and restrict which does the opposite of that. Someone earlier said the worse that will happen is we will pay a little more for ejuice. And why would you believe that? They are in phase 1, the propaganda campaign. Next will be the regulation and taxes. Why would it be OK if they JUST tax ejuice? It isn't their product to tax, not their business to regulate and everything we own isn't theirs to screw with. Here's an idea, quite screwing with honest, law abiding people, pass a budget and adhere to it and fix the problems the actually exist. Most of which were created by decades of fiscal mismanagement of the government itself. So how is it again that they think they are qualified to decide what is best for us?

Very well said. In my eyes it's plain and simple, greed. They want the tax revenue that they havn't been getting from the loss of cigarette sales tax.

As far as the propaganda goes we are being set up for the kill. They would love nothing better than to have us sitting in silence.

 

[Valhalla17]

Very well said. In my eyes it's plain and simple, greed. They want the tax revenue that they havn't been getting from the loss of cigarette sales tax.

As far as the propaganda goes we are being set up for the kill. They would love nothing better than to have us sitting in silence.

That's exactly right. Villianize the industry to erode support. When the support is low then they tax. It not about people's health, or the "children", or what's best for this country. They couldn't give a crap if anyone smokes or doesnt smoke. It about control and taxes like everything else.

 

[Bob Chill]

Exactly, what is the reason for any restriction on the ecig industry? I mean really, there is zero evidence of harm, zero reason to regulate and tax another industry into the ground. They talk on one hand about stimulating the economy then they tax and restrict which does the opposite of that. Someone earlier said the worse that will happen is we will pay a little more for ejuice. And why would you believe that? They are in phase 1, the propaganda campaign. Next will be the regulation and taxes. Why would it be OK if they JUST tax ejuice? It isn't their product to tax, not their business to regulate and everything we own isn't theirs to screw with. Here's an idea, quite screwing with honest, law abiding people, pass a budget and adhere to it and fix the problems the actually exist. Most of which were created by decades of fiscal mismanagement of the government itself. So how is it again that they think they are qualified to decide what is best for us?

Frustrating as heck isn't it? From our perspective it seems totally illogical. Goes directly against the grain of the end goal. I mean, isn't the end goal to eliminate tobacco smoking from society? That message has been blaring through loudspeakers for decades now. But anyone with a shred of intellect can see right through the opaque window of the truth.

There are some almost insurmountable headwinds with the entire issue though. First off, our subculture is really small. It's tiny really. Yea's vs Nea's are really lopsided and stacked against us. It would be different if the majority of the population smoked and this whole thing came along. Smoking has been demonized for all of my adult life. No matter how much we want the public to make a defined distinction between ecigs and regular cigs, we are on the losing end for the time being. Nothing can change that except time and unfortunately we are out of time it seems.

The only close comparison we have to an unregulated / untaxed vice is coffee. But there are some stark historical and societal differences that don't really help us much. Coffee has been around and consumed since at least the 14th century and nobody has figured out anything wrong with it. Coffee hasn't evolved much in 100's of years in regards to how it is consumed. The chance to tax and regulate passed centuries ago. Things would be different if coffee evolved from a harmful delivery method of caffeine to a safe delivery method.

I can say with 100% certainty that if caffeine was deemed a health hazard at any time in the 20th century but still legal to consume, it would be taxed and regulated. The whole reason for astronomical tobacco taxation is because of heath hazards and the associated costs. Stating the obvious of course but it's worth pointing out.

Legal vices don't go untaxed or unregulated. Ever. If we are going to have legal fun that is borderline dangerous then we pay. Don't want to pay then don't partake. Make it a habit and you pay for years and years. But we know that vaping is safe right? 100% certain? Nobody can say that. We are all consuming a stimulant in the name of fun, habit, and recreation so we will pay for that (for a laundry list of reasons). And unfortunately, it's very difficult to get anyone important to accept a clear line in the sand between what we do and what we used to do.

I want to win this battle as much as anybody but at this stage in the game it's a big long shot. I've said this before but if the reg hammer drops hard on us, this is actually a situation that could easily have some sort of deregulation in the near future. Like within 5 years. The window between now and then will be uncomfortable for us to say the least.

I totally agree with the points you raised in your post. But the machine does what it does unless there is a real outcry. One that can costs people elections and such. We're just not there yet.

 

[Vocalek]

Frustrating as heck isn't it? From our perspective it seems totally illogical. Goes directly against the grain of the end goal. I mean, isn't the end goal to eliminate tobacco smoking from society? That message has been blaring through loudspeakers for decades now. But anyone with a shred of intellect can see right through the opaque window of the truth.

That's what they led us to believe, until they started switching out the word "smoking" and switching in the word "tobacco". That's when we found out that their goal was bigger--they want to eliminate the use of any and all tobacco products from the face of the earth and put tobacco companies out of business. Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

They do not view long-term use of nicotine as acceptable, even if it isn't purely "recreational", but rather intended to prevent relapse to smoking. If they have their way, there won't be any products at all. They will take care of the relapse to smoking problem by gradually reducing the nicotine levels in combusted cigarettes to the imaginary point of "below addictive levels."

They refuse to acknowledge the research that shows using modern Western smokeless tobacco products (and hence, using NRTs or e-cigarettes) does not increase the risks of smoking-related diseases over those of non-tobacco users. They use propaganda techniques to demonize the tobacco industry and smokers themselves.

If you read through the document at the link I supplied, notice how one of the suggested tactics was to paint a very negative picture of tobacco users as weak, addicted, not very bright, etc. Therefore any punishment that is heaped on their heads is well-deserved. They deserve to be pushed out into the elements without shelter. They deserve to be unemployable. They deserve to be evicted from their homes.

 

[Bob Chill]

Well put, Vocalek. I'm not nearly as versed in this fight as many on here but I have enough experience in the mechanics of the regulatory process to know one thing for certain. One thing our Government does not do well or ever is go backwards. Especially since 9/11 and the econ crash. It's very troubling to me. It become accepted that our freedom and liberty can continuously be eroded but for some reason too many people are "ok" with it.

The Patriot Act is an American rights tragedy. It was never really intended to become permanent. Or was it? It was sold on the heels of a great American tragedy. It was an easy sell. And here we are 12 years later with many of the provisions still intact. I suppose if I had blind faith and trust in the Government using it solely for its intended purpose I would feel "ok" about it but I personally will never have that kind of faith and trust.

So here we are at a crossroads with tobacco vs ecigs. It's a sad truth that the decision makers will likely view any and all proposed regulation on ecigs that is softer than tobacco as going backwards. The really disturbing part is that the entire rise of ecigs is actually going forwards at breakneck speed compared to the last....i don't know....since the invention of the cigarette? Sheesh.

I'm in the large minority in my political beliefs but I honestly believe our Country would greatly benefit from a moderate libertarian President for at least one term. If we never go backwards with the erosion of the freedom and liberty that our Founding Fathers put in writing then each year that passes is as good as it gets and they are consecutively getting worse. Would a libertarian President have collateral damage? Absolutely. I'm willing to sacrifice some things to regain some sense of what America was originally supposed to be.