Are Premium Juice Vendors Taking Advantage of us?

[Serenity]

I will warn you that this is rather long so you may want to just not read it. LOL

I honestly don't think there is going to be an actual answer to the DIY vs buying liquid debate because this very subject has been going on for ages in the vaping community with no real answer. I think it just depends on the buyer and where they fall with their opinions. Overall I really don't care one way or the other honestly, but my big problem with purchasing liquid is this:

Ok, so let's say I am cruising the internet and I see that someone is raving about this amazing liquid or vendor that they just found. Alright, that's awesome - you found something you love. Let's say this liquid company is named company X. So I dig around and discover that liquid company X has fabulous packaging and they take great pride in the fact that they manufacture most (if not all) of their own flavorings themselves. They painstakingly mix up these flavors and are proud of them. Ok, I get that. They hire artists to make their logos with the pretty pictures - that costs money; I get that too. They charge $25 for 30 ml of liquid. So far I have no issue with any of this. The part that really annoys the crap out of me is the fact that I can't order say 10 ml of this fabulous "nectar of the gods" liquid in order to try it out before I shell out $25 for the 30 ml bottle. I don't mind paying the $25 on a liquid that I love, but spending it on a liquid that I've never vaped, smelled or even touched is a bit much to ask of the average consumer IMO. Let's face it the person who loves this liquid may have different tastes than I do and I may hate that same liquid no matter how much care company X takes in making it. I mean I don't like black licorice so I don't care how you color it up it's still black licorice and I'm going to have a very fancy paperweight on my desk that I spent $25 for...just sayin'. At the beginning of my long vaping career they used to offer smaller sized samples of liquid, so where did that go?

For me, it is far easier for me to buy sample sizes of flavorings that I can use to DIY my own liquid. This allows me the option of knowing the flavors that go in my liquid and there is no way in hell that black licorice can sneak it's way in because I don't own it. Plus, if I do pick up something that I've never tried before and find that I don't like it, well I can color it up with other flavors so that the flavor can become something that I can vape. It may not be my favorite liquid in the whole world and I may not vape it every day, but I will use the flavor eventually and simply not purchase that flavor again. I don't feel so much like I'm throwing my money away knowing these things. I only offer this up for consideration. Ultimately vape 'em if ya got 'em and at least you're not smoking analogs

 

[alicewonderland]

Not, with NET juices they really need to steep for along time...well actually they are OK mixed fresh, but they really develop with a long steep. I find the idea of making complex juices the most appealing....the juices I prefer usually are complex juices....The thing I like about the idea of DIY is control over ingredients....it's like cooking the most important thing about great food is the quality of the ingredents you use...the best recepies in the world don't mean squat if you have inferior ingredients...I think alot of juice makers high brow and low brow use inferior flavorings,,,,they just use alot of them and make everything sweet as hell. with DIY you can use high quality extracts.

yeah but those juices are kind of a rare variety and not the majority of the eliquids out there. In cases like that then prices will be justified because iot would take more time and effort for one to recreate this eliquid even with the recipe. I'm mainly referring to 'boutique' 'premium brand' base flavors that anyone can make easily that is not time consuming. In my opinion, stuff like that that 'requires' steeping justifies its price tag, stuff that is complex that include like 5+ flavorings or extracts at certain ratios and tastes good (and possibly impossible to recreate) deserves high price tags. Stuff that is basic 1 or two flavoring concoctions is unfjustified at 20$+ to 30ml for me.

 

[AndriaD]

Not a big fan of Halo. I have tried at least 5-6 of their juices and literally hated them all. Fortunately I got them from another member here and was not out a lot of money when I threw the bottles in the trash. It leaves me wondering if their flavors were developed for use with ego/tank set-ups as juice can taste radically different on higher powered devices in drippers and RTAs. I was dripping them and...blech...horrible. Maybe they taste better in an evod with an ego battery, but I'll never know.

The shop where I tasted them uses the Volcano BCCs as testers. They seemed like a fairly decent vape to me, with a few juices I tried there and liked, which also tasted good at home -- some of Hard Rock Vapor's juices, which is where/how I first encountered a Blueberry Muffin flavor -- HRV's is excellent, but too high in VG for me (50/50) so I started getting it from sweet-vapes, which lets me specify 80% or 90% PG. A fairly decent vape -- better than the T3S's I started out with, but not worth $12 that I could tell, so I've never bought one; when I "graduated" from T3Ss, it was to Kayfuns, and no clearo seems worth a darn to me after getting used to Kayfuns.

But I really tried to like those Halo tobacco flavors, when I was getting started and desperate to find a tobacco vape that I could use as a transition from smoking -- finally found MFS Virginia, which did the trick -- 4.50 for 10ml, or $25.99 for 60ml -- excellent prices for a juice that I thought at the time was the end-all and be-all. Lately I've been getting a yen for something "not-sweet," so I've been trying it out again, the 60ml bottle of the stuff I have left, and it's really not bad; if nothing else, the tobacco taste makes me appreciate the Blueberry Muffin all the more.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Wow what a train wreck this thread has turned into. Loving it !!

Ain't it the truth.



Andria

 

[AndriaD]

WOW!!!! I can't believe I spent my Friday night reading all of these oh wait I can: You know alice.... that is exactly how I got into my DIYing (well now I realized what you did, mine was actually taking diff flavored ejuices and mixing the 2)and now I can say I will buy premium as a treat because of the Customer Service I receive at my local B&M @Andria when I figure out a Very good Blueberry muffin type DIY, I will PM you a recipe just for you. I'm also a Blueberry Flavor junkie so to speak...

I'm always interested in new Blueberry Muffin recipes. At the moment, I've kinda put that on hold, I've discovered there are so many other flavors that are also great, that I might actually have a hope of creating.

I really don't go in for "simple" recipes, although I will say that TFA's Banana Nut Bread flavoring is very good, all by itself. My usual recipes look more like this:

Strawberries and Cream
Inawera Shisha Strawberry 16%
TFA DX Bavarian Cream 6%
TFA Vanilla Swirl 4.50%
CAP Sweet Cream 2%
TFA Sweetener 3%

or this:

Smoky Cappucino
Inawera Cappucino 2%
Inawera Coffee Tobacco 2%
Inawera Virginia Tobacco Absolute 2.50%
CAP Sweet Cream 6%
CAP Hazelnut v2 2.50%
TFA Milk Chocolate 3%
TFA Dbl-Chocolate Dark 2%
TFA Vanilla Swirl 2%
TFA Sweetener 2%

The Smoky Cappucino presents a different flavor profile, depending on the wattage -- lower wattage, it's a smooth, sweet, creamy, lightly smoky coffee flavor; higher wattage (above 10w), it's more like a bittersweet smoky tobacco, with a dark choc note.

Both of those recipes, I developed myself, just adding this and that until I reached a flavor I liked. I kinda go back and forth with both of them, too sweet, not sweet enough, so the sweetener is definitely optional and to-taste. I just started getting into "serious" DIY (as opposed to mixing two pre-mades) in the autumn, last year, so I'd say it's coming right along.

Andria

 

[narrdarr]

so i have only read through some of this thread, but i just wanted to say a couple things.
i haven't started DYI'ing mainly because its intimidating with so juice flavoring vendors to choose from i have no idea where to start. although it would be cheaper.
IMO anyone spending more than 10$ for 30ml of juice is crazy in my book there are a bunch of vendors with great juices and are fair with their pricing(7-10$).

 

[Equality 7-2521]

yeah but those juices are kind of a rare variety and not the majority of the eliquids out there. In cases like that then prices will be justified because iot would take more time and effort for one to recreate this eliquid even with the recipe. I'm mainly referring to 'boutique' 'premium brand' base flavors that anyone can make easily that is not time consuming. In my opinion, stuff like that that 'requires' steeping justifies its price tag, stuff that is complex that include like 5+ flavorings or extracts at certain ratios and tastes good (and possibly impossible to recreate) deserves high price tags. Stuff that is basic 1 or two flavoring concoctions is unfjustified at 20$+ to 30ml for me.

I hear you...there are so many issues.....we all know how prone to fads vaping is....every six months there's a new unicorn atty, the must have atty,the must have,game changing atty, and alot of the times within a year you can't sell them for half of what you bought them for....fads.....
And I have bought a boatload of "artisan" "botique" juice that was no better than juice half it's price.
But for instance "Dripezz" is a small company or it was a small company, that makes simple juices, one or two flavors...last time I bought from them it was about 20.00 for 30ml...but they make their own extracts in house,and their juice is amazing...
You can buy a plum from Chile in the middle of January, that's been shipped a couple of thousand miles, and picked green, or you can go out in the middle of the summer in your back yard and pick a fresh ripe plum off yourr trees.....simple,but a world of diffrence.....
I wear glasses,wearing glasses is not a reflection on me as a person,and says nothing about who I am, other than my eyesight is not as good as my brother's eye sight....Some people just don't have a palatte..they just aren't able to detect nuances within a food or juice....you give them an amazing juice and all they taste is "apple" or "chocolate"...it taste about the same as the "apple' or "chocolate" of a juice half the price, and they think your stupid or a snob for paying top dollar...It's not just that taste is subjective...the ability to detect flavors is not the same for everyone....people who can detect flavor very well...are not crazy,or fools, or snobs for paying top dollar..People that are not that sensitive to flavors, are not dolts, or provincial,or knuckle draggers.for being satisfied with more modest juices.
All that being said I don't like paying 25.00 for 30 ml of juice either,and it pisses me off as well.one of the reasons I'm interested in DIY high quality juice.

 

[VNeil]

so i have only read through some of this thread, but i just wanted to say a couple things.
i haven't started DYI'ing mainly because its intimidating with so juice flavoring vendors to choose from i have no idea where to start. although it would be cheaper.
IMO anyone spending more than 10$ for 30ml of juice is crazy in my book there are a bunch of vendors with great juices and are fair with their pricing(7-10$).

It only looks intimidating because you are reading posts from people that have advanced far into DIY and have developed very specific preferences. And this is no different than vapers that have tried 6 different Banana Cream commercial juices and found one they like more than the others. Just because something can be made does not mean you need it!

There is a long running thread in DIY concentrating on TFA flavors. That is where I started. Not because I thought TFA is better than Capella or Lorann Oils, but there were so many recipes available without getting bogged down in a worldwide search for the ingredients that matched the recipes. There are a lot of simple recipes that taste great. I started by mixing TFA Banana Cream and Strawberry Cream and got great vape for about $1/30 ml bottle.

Just find a couple of recipes for flavors you like, buy the flavorings and the nic base, and give it a try! Here is a good place to start... E-Cigarette Forum - Bill's Magic Vapor - Blogs.

There are probably far more ready made mixes than flavors available, considering there are only about a half dozen major flavor makers discussed here. DIY actually simplifies things because it is so much easier to evolve into a taste you want, once you understand the basic flavors. Just start simple and work your way into it.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

I started the DIY about a month or two after I started vaping mostly because I worked my through college as a chef and figured it would be a nice avenue to try that side of creativity with taste. Its really a blast, its easy, quick, and very cost effective. The upside is if the feds get involved you'll have a good backup plan. Self sufficiency is priceless. Plus, when I do buy juice its like an extra 'treat'.

THAT is the only thing that could make me go DIY.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

The part that really annoys the crap out of me is the fact that I can't order say 10 ml of this fabulous "nectar of the gods" liquid in order to try it out before I shell out $25 for the 30 ml bottle. I don't mind paying the $25 on a liquid that I love, but spending it on a liquid that I've never vaped, smelled or even touched is a bit much to ask of the average consumer IMO. [/QUOTE]

Okay, that annoys the crap out of me, too. But back to the whole capitalism thing, if a site only offers large bottles at, say $20.00 and up, then they're not gonna get my business. Dr. Crimmy's drives me nuts! Sounds like great e-juice, but there is no way I'm buying 60 freakin' mls (and that's the smallest bottle Doc offers!) of a juice I've never tasted before.

Yew lives yer life, you makes yer choice.

 

[Serenity]

60 ml being the smallest size available does seem extremely excessive...just sayin'

 

[Zazoie]

Watching the twilight zone A Game of Pool. I heard scratching in the closet and my cat blasted out of it like it saw a ghost. Can't find the cat and wondering where it's gone off too. In pursuit of nachos.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

THAT is the only thing that could make me go DIY.

And that was a good enough reason alone for me to pick it up in the first place .
The fact that I happen to make a few very good liquids is a very welcomed side effect.
2000 ml of base runs me about 40$ the flavorings from 'the flavor apprentice ' for 3 different juices in total cost me about 20$ a month so after doing the math at 15ml a day vaped I may spend a total of 28$ a month on DIY liquid. The only reason I buy any liquid at all outside of what I make is to change it up and get ideas for mew stuff.
Its also nice to enjoy something you made yourself and watch other people enjoy it.

 

[IM_ALL_IN]

I like VapersTek nicotine too... the THROAT HIT NICOTINE! Don't have to add so much Flash to a recipe, to get throat hit!

Because I consider a juice with no TH as just unvapable. Sure it may taste good... but it's not finished! If there's no TH, there's no satisfaction.

And I agree that juice makers are gouging us, and I kinda understand why: a) with pre-made juice, you're paying not just for ingredients and packaging, but also for the expertise to make a really good juice, and b) they understand that probably 50% of whoever tries their juice and likes it, is going to eventually wind up DIYing, so they have to get while the gettings good -- just like B&M shops have to gouge on hardware, because once a vaper discovers buying online, that customer is GONE -- they have to get their money while they can!

Andria

Exactly, there's no doubt they're trying to capitalize on the market ignorance. There's a gradual trend toward DIY'ing and once enough vapors figure out how easy it is, juice prices are going to take a tumble. Right now is going to be the only time possible for these "premium" companies to maximize profits, so as long as enough customers are willing to pay, the prices will hold for the time being.

It will be a totally different story soon IMO. Not only b/c of DIY'ers, but all the new juice companies getting into the "premium" market will drive prices down. Some of the "premium" juices may be good, but I don't feel good about paying those prices, so I don't purchase them. Voting with your wallet determines market prices.

 

[stevegmu]

Not everyone wants simple flavors or has the time or patience to try 100 mixes to get a decent one. That will never change.
Will e-liquid prices go down? Not as long as the companies making 'premium' juice keep putting out a good product people are willing to pay for. It is the same argument some make on my travel forum. Why stay in a 5 star luxury hotel in the center, when one can rent a flat 20 minutes away? Convenience...

 

[WharfRat1976]

The premium premium joose makers not only charge for the freight, they only release to a few sellers in any particular market. They are all using the Beanie Baby concept in marketing thus holding their prices and making us beg...Brilliant.

 

[HgA1C]

I will jump in and add another thought. Premium prices should at the worst case mirror the prices of Nicotine gum. A piece of Nicotine gum should cost no more than 1ml of premium juice. Nicorette is priced <$0.50 a piece. The premium makers need to wake up to these facts if they wish to stay in business. Honestly once the regulations are in place and rules are set very few of these companies will be able to compete with BT and the Pharmaceutical companies.

100 years ago there were many automobile companies starting up and making vehicles. Once all of the regulations came to bear on the market, very few survived.

I still purchase juices from various suppliers. However, I have 2L of Nic and will be getting all of my DIY supplies around in the coming months.

 

[stevegmu]

I will jump in and add another thought. Premium prices should at the worst case mirror the prices of Nicotine gum. A piece of Nicotine gum should cost no more than 1ml of premium juice. Nicorette is priced <$0.50 a piece. The premium makers need to wake up to these facts if they wish to stay in business. Honestly once the regulations are in place and rules are set very few of these companies will be able to compete with BT and the Pharmaceutical companies.

100 years ago there were many automobile companies starting up and making vehicles. Once all of the regulations came to bear on the market, very few survived.

I still purchase juices from various suppliers. However, I have 2L of Nic and will be getting all of my DIY supplies around in the coming months.

I just don't equate e-nic to anything else. It isn't a choice for me between nic gum, nic inhalers, cigarettes or e-nic. I don't want the others and have no problem with the cost of the e-liquid I like. Apparently there are many like me, or the 'premium' vendors would go out of business.

I also imagine the 'premium' vendors will satisfy the FDA when it comes to regulations and still be around in 5 or more years when regulations appear...

 

[alicewonderland]

I just don't equate e-nic to anything else. It isn't a choice for me between nic gum, nic inhalers, cigarettes or e-nic. I don't want the others and have no problem with the cost of the e-liquid I like. Apparently there are many like me, or the 'premium' vendors would go out of business.

I also imagine the 'premium' vendors will satisfy the FDA when it comes to regulations and still be around in 5 or more years when regulations appear...

I'm sure most would go into DIY if they weren't so scared to try it in the first place thinking its some kind of laborious craft.

 

[IM_ALL_IN]

Not everyone wants simple flavors or has the time or patience to try 100 mixes to get a decent one. That will never change.
Will e-liquid prices go down? Not as long as the companies making 'premium' juice keep putting out a good product people are willing to pay for. It is the same argument some make on my travel forum. Why stay in a 5 star luxury hotel in the center, when one can rent a flat 20 minutes away? Convenience...

I can sympathize with your first point, but your analogy doesn't make any sense. What happens when countless 5 star hotels are built? That's what the "premium" juice market is heading toward.