Are those who claim that vaping is safer than smoking liars?

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Purplepeeps

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Mar 10, 2014
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I once woke up with the imprint of my Volt X2 on my thigh. I slept on it for about six hours.

My excuse is that I was sick at the time and doubtless feverish.

However, there was no fire, flame, nor dead me.

This cracked me up! I just about sleep with mine too LOL!:laugh:
 

FireDragon1138

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I theory... vaping should be safer than smoking. And it probably is. But that doesn't mean it's "completely safe", or that it can't have long-term health consequences. But there's nothing in vapor to compare to what is in cigarette smoke. Still, that is just theory, not hard evidence.

Remember, in theory light cigarettes were a good idea. In practice, they did little to mitigate the risks of smoking, and often provided false assurance to smokers. vaping could be a similar issue, people could be theorizing well beyond where the evidence leads.
 

Shanny

Full Member
Mar 13, 2014
5
7
Toronto ON
In the end I think it's just a question we answer for ourselves.

I'm skeptical of experts because it seems experts have strong opinions supporting both sides.
I trust my own personal experience over all the experts.

I did read just yesterday that Vegetable Glycerin is used by some athletes to help them maintain hydration. There was a link to studies done on it but I didn't go there.
I think a lot of people just like to have an opinion, whether or not they know much about the subject or not. I choose for myself, no one else. And that is enough.
 

twgbonehead

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Apr 28, 2011
3,705
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Since you have accused me, by inference, of being a liar, I feel I must respond to your post.

I don't want to accuse anyone but personally I think they are, although for most of them, not intentionally.

A few considerations:

For vapers, it's very tempting to ignore the potential dangers:
Most vapers were former smokers, including myself. For most of us it is extremely tempting to jump on something that satisfies our craving for nicotine and is very similar to smoking. I was a smoker (2 packs a day of Camels) for 46 years and like most smokers I've tried all alternative methods for quitting, without success. I quit smoking after the fist puff of vapor and never thought about cigarettes again (it's been 6 months now). It's very tempting for me to try to ignore any argument that would point to potential dangers of vaping.
Do you subscribe to some religion where temptation is a sin, or something like that? The above paragraph seems to be saying basically "If someone says something is a good thing and I believe them, then they're a liar".
Those who claim that vaping is safe might very well be protecting financial interests of their own:
One argument I often read about those pointing to the potential dangers of vaping is that they are protecting interest of big tobacco or pharmaceutical (patches, gums, etc) companies. That may very well be true but let's not forget that although the vaping industry represent only a small fraction of revenues compared to the 2 mentioned above, the vaping industry is still cashing billions and that amount is growing exponentially (estimates vary from 100% to 400% yearly growth). Are we forgetting that those who claim so loudly that vaping is so much safer than smoking might very well be protecting their own financial interests?
I have no financial interest in whether you vape, smoke, or mainline clorox. I claim loudly that vaping is safer than smoking.
I also claim that the world is round. Hitler claimed that too. Obviously that means I'm the same as Hitler.
The fact that most or all ingredients found in e-liquids are considered safe to eat doesn't mean that they're safe to vape:
First there's the fact that ingesting PG or VG or any of the thousands of chemicals contained in flavoring and/or coloring with food or medication is NOT the same as ingesting them through vapor. As we all know heating something sometimes modifies its chemical structure, can create chemical interactions and/or modifications of the components involved. In other words it's not because it's safe to eat something that it's safe to inhale the same thing that has been submitted to extreme heat and vaporized.
And then of course there's the question of pure quantity. My wife is asthmatic and inhales (non heated) PG with her medication. But let's face it, quantities involved are hugely different. I vape more or less 10ml/day. Can I assume that because the few micro mls of PG contained in asthma medication have been deemed safe I can with impunity ingest million of times that quantity when vaping?
Food flavorings are subject to much heavier restrictions than scents (like in scented candles). Most scents are NOT considered GRAS, but are not restricted because inhaling them has shown relatively few problems. (You are much much much more likely to die in a candle fire than from inhaling candle scents and other candle emissions).
Inhalation of both VG (In high concentrations, for extended periods of time) and PG have BOTH been studied. Not as thoroughly for PG. Do you contend that because you don't know about these they must not exist? And that anyone who believes these studies do exist must have a financial interest in killing you somehow?
And then there is the fact that amongst some of the thousand of chemicals involved in the composition of e-liquids a few ARE extremely dangerous:
If you're vaping and find my post ridiculous, please at least read this thread: XXX.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many.html (Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?) Forgive the XXX but I'm not allowed to post links. Please replace with www

OH MY GOD! I just discovered a box of microwave popcorn in my kitchen!!! HELP! My wife must be trying to kill me!

Long term research is non-existent:
We do have a few researches about short term effects of vaping and they do seem to indicate, for most of them at least, that vaping is much safer than smoking. But of course we have absolutely no long term researches due to the simple fact that vaping hasn't been around for that long. In other words, me and other vapers are guinea pigs and our cadavers, when we die, are hopefully going to provide data for future generations of vapers.
We DO have long-term studies of inhalation of VG in the environment. We DO have MASSIVE population-level studies of nicotine use outside of smoked tobacco (for example, SNUS). You act like vaping is the equivalent of cold fusion, and that "nothing" is known about it. Here's a clue. Taken any prescription medication lately? Non-prescription drugs other than aspirin? Here's a clue: 90% of the stuff on the drugstore shelves has less known about the long-term effects than the ingredients in e-cigarettes. Eaten any corn lately?
Does it mean we should panic and stop vaping?
Of course that's for each of us to decide. Personally, I consider that if we think that we are daily ingesting GMO's, breathing polluted air, eating transformed food containing millions of chemicals, vaping is probably not much worse than all that stuff.
But blindly believing that vaping is safe and that as ex-smokers, we can have our cake and eat it too is a bit unrealistic.
And also let's try to keep in mind that those defending vaping so loudly may have strong financial motivations to do so. Pointing the finger at tobacco and pharmaceutical companies doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have financial interests of your own to protect.
I have little to say to that which would get through ECF's filters and guidelines. I think the best way to put it is this:

"Your arguments, particularly those expressed in the last section make me believe that you would benefit greatly from outside help. I do not believe this forum is an appropriate place to address the life-difficulties you are going through".
 

Maurice Pudlo

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Nov 27, 2013
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I don't want to accuse anyone but personally I think they are, although for most of them, not intentionally.

A few considerations:

For vapers, it's very tempting to ignore the potential dangers:
Most vapers were former smokers, including myself. For most of us it is extremely tempting to jump on something that satisfies our craving for nicotine and is very similar to smoking. I was a smoker (2 packs a day of Camels) for 46 years and like most smokers I've tried all alternative methods for quitting, without success. I quit smoking after the fist puff of vapor and never thought about cigarettes again (it's been 6 months now). It's very tempting for me to try to ignore any argument that would point to potential dangers of vaping.

Those who claim that vaping is safe might very well be protecting financial interests of their own:
One argument I often read about those pointing to the potential dangers of vaping is that they are protecting interest of big tobacco or pharmaceutical (patches, gums, etc) companies. That may very well be true but let's not forget that although the vaping industry represent only a small fraction of revenues compared to the 2 mentioned above, the vaping industry is still cashing billions and that amount is growing exponentially (estimates vary from 100% to 400% yearly growth). Are we forgetting that those who claim so loudly that vaping is so much safer than smoking might very well be protecting their own financial interests?

The fact that most or all ingredients found in e-liquids are considered safe to eat doesn't mean that they're safe to vape:
First there's the fact that ingesting PG or VG or any of the thousands of chemicals contained in flavoring and/or coloring with food or medication is NOT the same as ingesting them through vapor. As we all know heating something sometimes modifies its chemical structure, can create chemical interactions and/or modifications of the components involved. In other words it's not because it's safe to eat something that it's safe to inhale the same thing that has been submitted to extreme heat and vaporized.
And then of course there's the question of pure quantity. My wife is asthmatic and inhales (non heated) PG with her medication. But let's face it, quantities involved are hugely different. I vape more or less 10ml/day. Can I assume that because the few micro mls of PG contained in asthma medication have been deemed safe I can with impunity ingest million of times that quantity when vaping?

And then there is the fact that amongst some of the thousand of chemicals involved in the composition of e-liquids a few ARE extremely dangerous:
If you're vaping and find my post ridiculous, please at least read this thread: XXX.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many.html (Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?) Forgive the XXX but I'm not allowed to post links. Please replace with www

Long term research is non-existent:
We do have a few researches about short term effects of vaping and they do seem to indicate, for most of them at least, that vaping is much safer than smoking. But of course we have absolutely no long term researches due to the simple fact that vaping hasn't been around for that long. In other words, me and other vapers are guinea pigs and our cadavers, when we die, are hopefully going to provide data for future generations of vapers.

Does it mean we should panic and stop vaping?
Of course that's for each of us to decide. Personally, I consider that if we think that we are daily ingesting GMO's, breathing polluted air, eating transformed food containing millions of chemicals, vaping is probably not much worse than all that stuff.
But blindly believing that vaping is safe and that as ex-smokers, we can have our cake and eat it too is a bit unrealistic.
And also let's try to keep in mind that those defending vaping so loudly may have strong financial motivations to do so. Pointing the finger at tobacco and pharmaceutical companies doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have financial interests of your own to protect.

Cooks have been inhaling heated flavors for quite some time now, its kind of part of the job.

Vaping is a little like smeing your cooking, smoking is a bit like breathing smoke. Its not that vaping is safe, safer, or safest, it is missing every harmful component of smoke and replacing it with exactly the same stuff you might inhale from your cup of tea, or coffee.

Maurice
 

airdogvan

Full Member
Oct 27, 2013
13
28
I'm the OP.

If I may be allowed some answers to some of the arguments that I have read.

First I have been labelled a troll and I somewhat agree. The word "liars" was chosen for a reason. Not to throw the stone at anybody (although I do admit that it is a "side effect" so to speak), but to grab attention.

And I didn't wish to grab attention for my own self gratification but to suscitate reflection on the subject at hand.

I am vaping, I smoked for almost 50 years, so obviously what goes in my body is not so important to me. I was thinking more of younger members vaping, maybe it's worth the effort for them to not give in blindly to the hype and think seriously about what they are getting into. Let's not forget that nicotine is addictive.

Then also I think that controversies such as this one will bring the vendors to be more careful and care more about their customer's needs and wishes. That's important to everyone. How many vendors actually state clearly that their products are diacetyl free? How many vendors give actual factual descriptions, beyond the vague "100% USA made", of what goes into their products?

And please let's not forget the fact that this industry is not regulated. This is practive means that anybody can mix up a juice, containing whatever that person wants to put in, and sell it out. Granted I don't think that major vendors do this, but the fact remains this is very possible.

Now I'm sorry to say that I do not agree with the argument that comes back again and again to the effect that no matter what vaping is better than smoking. Let me explain. Yes I agree that most of us feel a huge health benefit after quitting the cigarette and doctors also see these changes for the better. BUT:
We are watching out for changes concerning the bad effects caused by smoking but not paying attention to any other changes that might arise in places we are not expecting and are not caused by smoking. Let me give a possible example. We all know that PG causes dehydration. Is it possible that the huge amount of PG circulating in our blood and being distributed to all of our organs brings about general dehydration? I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's not impossible, it will possibly not appear before a few years and we and our doctors are not watching out for this.

And seeing an immediate amelioration to smoking symptoms is good and probably not seeing the changes for the worst tthat might happen because of vaping also feels good. But how many of us saw really bad effects from smoking after a few months or even a few years. These things take years to become perceptible.

So again I don't agree that vaping is so obviously better than smoking. I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying we just don't know yet, it's just too early.

And pleaes don't accuse me of trying to bring fear in the community. I'm pretty sure I am raising legitimate concerns and questions and it's not because I do love vaping that I'm just going to shut down my brain and ignore all possible consequences. Sorry, not going to happen. Vaping is my pleasure, not my religion.

And again I repeat I'm no expert but I believe that those who state so categorically that here are only 4 or 5 chemicals in a juice are wrong. From what I've read (again sorry can't post links) flavoring and coloring contain hundreds or thousands of different chemicals each and most flavors in our juices are made from a mix of different flavors.

And to all those who accuse me of this or that, I don't think that accusations are going to bring anything valid to the argumentation, it just proves that you are going into this blindly whithout asking yourselves too many questions.

I do thank those who bring valid and interesting arguments to the debate and hope to see more of those interventions.

Sorry for the long rant...
 

TigerLadyTX

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Verified Member
Feb 16, 2012
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Garland, TX
I absolutely, 100%, believe vaping to be less damaging to one's health than smoking. I believe it and tell people that.

Do I know for certain that there are positively no health risks associated with vaping? No.

Do I know for certain that there will never be any health risks associated with vaping? No.

Do I know for certain that vaping won't someday in the future be found to have caused some folk health issues? No.

What I do know, however, is that smoking DOES cause folk health problems. Heck, I was always sick when I was a smoker with some sort of a URI. And I burned holes in things and stank when I was a smoker. And my teeth were yellow when I was a smoker. And I had to take 2 to 3 breathing treatments a day when I was a smoker. And I had to use my rescue inhaler at least once a day when I was a smoker, (I have asthma). And I once set my pillow on fire when I was a smoker because I fell asleep in bed while smoking.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I believe vaping to be far, far less dangerous to my health than smoking EVER was and I tell people exactly that when they ask me about vaping.

I've never told anyone that I knew, for certain, that there would never EVER be any risks associated with vaping. But I DO tell them how vaping worked for me to quit smoking, (33 year smoker; 50 to 60 cigs per day the last few years and tried everything know to God and man to quit smoking over the years and always failed), and how much better I have felt since becoming smoke free.
 

NealBJr

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Jul 27, 2013
2,469
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Lawrenceville, Ga.
I will answer my research and my reactions.


Those who claim that vaping is safe might very well be protecting financial interests of their own:
One argument I often read about those pointing to the potential dangers of vaping is that they are protecting interest of big tobacco or pharmaceutical (patches, gums, etc) companies. That may very well be true but let's not forget that although the vaping industry represent only a small fraction of revenues compared to the 2 mentioned above, the vaping industry is still cashing billions and that amount is growing exponentially (estimates vary from 100% to 400% yearly growth). Are we forgetting that those who claim so loudly that vaping is so much safer than smoking might very well be protecting their own financial interests?

There is potential dangers for these companies in general just to open the doors. With the FDA warnings, Govornment taxing, and many other potential problems that could simply shut someone's whole operation down, the fact they have a markup is no surprise. Someone invests money into opening up any sort of shop, and in 3 months, some regulation could shut their entire investment down. Those who shout the loudest usually aren't the shops themselves, nor the vapers. Most of the proposed regulations stem from LACK of knowlege. they are trying to shut down the industries where the current research is that it is SAFER. I'll get into that in a moment, but the loudest people aren't the vape shops, aren't the vapers, but congressmen and diplomats who find the whole vaping scene as a threat to THEIR financial gains. That is why you find regulations wanting to tax it up to being as or more expensive than using regular cigarettes, so people won't want to switch from their current trend and taxes.

The fact that most or all ingredients found in e-liquids are considered safe to eat doesn't mean that they're safe to vape:
First there's the fact that ingesting PG or VG or any of the thousands of chemicals contained in flavoring and/or coloring with food or medication is NOT the same as ingesting them through vapor. As we all know heating something sometimes modifies its chemical structure, can create chemical interactions and/or modifications of the components involved. In other words it's not because it's safe to eat something that it's safe to inhale the same thing that has been submitted to extreme heat and vaporized.
And then of course there's the question of pure quantity. My wife is asthmatic and inhales (non heated) PG with her medication. But let's face it, quantities involved are hugely different. I vape more or less 10ml/day. Can I assume that because the few micro mls of PG contained in asthma medication have been deemed safe I can with impunity ingest million of times that quantity when vaping?

Propylene Glycol has been around for over 50 years. It has several uses and should not be regarded as simply an E-Cigarette chemical. One of it's uses, is as a fog machine. There ARE some cases where fog machines are used in theatrical stages, houses of horror, or parties. There are employees that work in those places, and have worked there for quite a while. Propylene glycol has also been used in the medical field as a drug carrier in an inhaler. These are not new inventions and have been out for many years. There hasn't been any long term exposure detriments to inhaling propylene glycol or Vegetable Glycerine in the last 50 years besides minor cases..things we're quite aware of and people have been warned against.. allergies, drying of throat, etc.

And then there is the fact that amongst some of the thousand of chemicals involved in the composition of e-liquids a few ARE extremely dangerous:
If you're vaping and find my post ridiculous, please at least read this thread: XXX.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many.html (Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?) Forgive the XXX but I'm not allowed to post links. Please replace with www

Diacetyl is found in several food products. Chances are, you consume it every day in many products. Again, going with the "it is not inhaled" aspect, It has not been a banned substance, and the only major concern has been in a factory that heavily uses it. Even after that case, they have not banned it. ANYTHING taken in excess can be harmful, and trace ammounts in an Ecig does not produce enough to warrant much concern.

Long term research is non-existent:
We do have a few researches about short term effects of vaping and they do seem to indicate, for most of them at least, that vaping is much safer than smoking. But of course we have absolutely no long term researches due to the simple fact that vaping hasn't been around for that long. In other words, me and other vapers are guinea pigs and our cadavers, when we die, are hopefully going to provide data for future generations of vapers.

I have mentioned earlier, Even though putting nicotine in propylene glycol and Vegetable Glycerine is a new way of getting nicotine, People HAVE been Inhaling these substances for many years and for long periods of time. There has been no medical reports to indicate there should be any concern. How many employees dressed as a fearsome monster in a foggy haunted house have indicated any problems, how about how many lawsuits were submitted due to their inhilation of Propylene glycol to get their asthma medicine, or how many DJ's are admitted to hospitals for inhalation of excessive smoke juice from their clubs.... It's all been out for a while, it's all been used.

Does it mean we should panic and stop vaping?
Of course that's for each of us to decide. Personally, I consider that if we think that we are daily ingesting GMO's, breathing polluted air, eating transformed food containing millions of chemicals, vaping is probably not much worse than all that stuff.
But blindly believing that vaping is safe and that as ex-smokers, we can have our cake and eat it too is a bit unrealistic.
And also let's try to keep in mind that those defending vaping so loudly may have strong financial motivations to do so. Pointing the finger at tobacco and pharmaceutical companies doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have financial interests of your own to protect.

I am a vaper, the only financial interest I have, is how much MORE I will have to spend on vaping gear due to unwarranted concerns. People see it look like something that is KNOWN as killing, and they look down on it. There is always something wrong with SOMETHING you are using now. We clad ourselfs in a virtual suit of chemicals every day without thought. as far as I am concerned, switching from regular analogs is many times safer than something that has killed both my grandfathers and step father. The delivery of nicotine by regular cigarettes is a flawed design, and it's not the thousands of chemicals in them that kills people, it's the delivery METHOD that kills. Burning substances and inhaling the remenants are what kills millions of people. That's not taking into account ANY of the chemicals inhaled. Cigarettes have more chemicals than an Ecigarette, that is a known fact. so, if you can eliminate the burning component, and elminate the inhilation of 1000 chemicals, then the option is a no brainer. Why tax me or be concerned about something that is so blatantly safer?
 

jabberwalkie

Senior Member
Mar 8, 2014
72
86
us
I had the same concerns when I was thinking about digitalizing. Luckily I had a paper due for my sociology class which gave me ample time to do as much research as possible. To keep things short, sweet and simple most public health officials will say nothing is better then quitting all together but compared to smoking analog it is way better. I have read a preliminary report from FDA saying the few carto's they tested only one actually contained carcinogen's, but at the level of 1-1000th of an analog cig. Basically between the CDC, FDA, BMA, AAPHP and WHO they all have agreed there needs to be some kind of quality control and manufacturing standards to ensure legitimacy as a smoking cessation device or a definitive Nicotine replacement Device. If anyone is interested shoot me a message and I will send them links to published reports and/or my work cited list for my 5000 word paper.
 

BigEgo

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2013
1,048
1,228
Alabama
OP makes some very valid arguments and is thinking along the lines of the way I think.

1) Just because something is GRAS as a food additive doesn't mean it is safe to inhale. The lungs are a lot different than the intestines. Diacetyl is a good example -- it is perfectly fine to ingest, but can cause a fatal lung disease if inhaled over a period of time.

2) As the "Drexel report" says the biggest unknown about vaping is the long term effects of inhaling PG and VG. We know both are safe to inhale in small quantities, but what about vaping them all day? We simply don't know.

3) There's a lot to be learned about the food additives and their chemical structures. Different vendors use different additives and we really don't know what they all different vendors are using.

4) A report out of Japan (cited in the Drexel paper) indicates that harmful chemicals like acrolein are not present in vapor at lower voltages but increase exponentially after you begin to go higher than 3v (they tested up to 7v I believe). So we have a lot to learn about higher voltage vaping.

5) There's no regulation. While most of us don't want outright bans, I think many of us would like some oversight in regard to e-liquid.

6) Something that's often overlooked is the coil and the wick. What's the safest wicking material? What's the safest temperature? That's something no one agrees on because there's been no studies.

So there's a lot of unanswered questions. But even with all of these questions, even staunch anti-nicotine people like Glantz agree that e-cigs are almost certainly better than "the real thing."
 

jensy

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 10, 2014
894
1,650
Fort Nelson, BC, Canada
I'm the OP.

If I may be allowed some answers to some of the arguments that I have read.

First I have been labelled a troll and I somewhat agree. The word "liars" was chosen for a reason. Not to throw the stone at anybody (although I do admit that it is a "side effect" so to speak), but to grab attention.

And I didn't wish to grab attention for my own self gratification but to suscitate reflection on the subject at hand.

I am vaping, I smoked for almost 50 years, so obviously what goes in my body is not so important to me. I was thinking more of younger members vaping, maybe it's worth the effort for them to not give in blindly to the hype and think seriously about what they are getting into. Let's not forget that nicotine is addictive.

Then also I think that controversies such as this one will bring the vendors to be more careful and care more about their customer's needs and wishes. That's important to everyone. How many vendors actually state clearly that their products are diacetyl free? How many vendors give actual factual descriptions, beyond the vague "100% USA made", of what goes into their products?

And please let's not forget the fact that this industry is not regulated. This is practive means that anybody can mix up a juice, containing whatever that person wants to put in, and sell it out. Granted I don't think that major vendors do this, but the fact remains this is very possible.

Now I'm sorry to say that I do not agree with the argument that comes back again and again to the effect that no matter what vaping is better than smoking. Let me explain. Yes I agree that most of us feel a huge health benefit after quitting the cigarette and doctors also see these changes for the better. BUT:
We are watching out for changes concerning the bad effects caused by smoking but not paying attention to any other changes that might arise in places we are not expecting and are not caused by smoking. Let me give a possible example. We all know that PG causes dehydration. Is it possible that the huge amount of PG circulating in our blood and being distributed to all of our organs brings about general dehydration? I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's not impossible, it will possibly not appear before a few years and we and our doctors are not watching out for this.

And seeing an immediate amelioration to smoking symptoms is good and probably not seeing the changes for the worst tthat might happen because of vaping also feels good. But how many of us saw really bad effects from smoking after a few months or even a few years. These things take years to become perceptible.

So again I don't agree that vaping is so obviously better than smoking. I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying we just don't know yet, it's just too early.

And pleaes don't accuse me of trying to bring fear in the community. I'm pretty sure I am raising legitimate concerns and questions and it's not because I do love vaping that I'm just going to shut down my brain and ignore all possible consequences. Sorry, not going to happen. Vaping is my pleasure, not my religion.

And again I repeat I'm no expert but I believe that those who state so categorically that here are only 4 or 5 chemicals in a juice are wrong. From what I've read (again sorry can't post links) flavoring and coloring contain hundreds or thousands of different chemicals each and most flavors in our juices are made from a mix of different flavors.

And to all those who accuse me of this or that, I don't think that accusations are going to bring anything valid to the argumentation, it just proves that you are going into this blindly whithout asking yourselves too many questions.

I do thank those who bring valid and interesting arguments to the debate and hope to see more of those interventions.

Sorry for the long rant...


Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I am sorry but by your post I still think you are trying to antagonize. How many reports have you read on this subject and from whom have they been written . There have been many studies done to quell most of your concerns, however I think you are looking for a fight. Even to your second last paragraph where you say we shouldn't accuse you of anything because it will not add to the argument, welll, hmmmmmmmm, ahhhhhhhhhhhh, guess what you were the one that called us liars.

Please read the many reports that have been done on vaping and then perhaps we can have a informed conversation.
 

neutrontech

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 16, 2013
261
387
Michigan
I'm the OP.

If I may be allowed some answers to some of the arguments that I have read.

First I have been labelled a troll and I somewhat agree. The word "liars" was chosen for a reason. Not to throw the stone at anybody (although I do admit that it is a "side effect" so to speak), but to grab attention.

And I didn't wish to grab attention for my own self gratification but to suscitate reflection on the subject at hand.

I am vaping, I smoked for almost 50 years, so obviously what goes in my body is not so important to me. I was thinking more of younger members vaping, maybe it's worth the effort for them to not give in blindly to the hype and think seriously about what they are getting into. Let's not forget that nicotine is addictive.

Then also I think that controversies such as this one will bring the vendors to be more careful and care more about their customer's needs and wishes. That's important to everyone. How many vendors actually state clearly that their products are diacetyl free? How many vendors give actual factual descriptions, beyond the vague "100% USA made", of what goes into their products?

And please let's not forget the fact that this industry is not regulated. This is practive means that anybody can mix up a juice, containing whatever that person wants to put in, and sell it out. Granted I don't think that major vendors do this, but the fact remains this is very possible.

Now I'm sorry to say that I do not agree with the argument that comes back again and again to the effect that no matter what vaping is better than smoking. Let me explain. Yes I agree that most of us feel a huge health benefit after quitting the cigarette and doctors also see these changes for the better. BUT:
We are watching out for changes concerning the bad effects caused by smoking but not paying attention to any other changes that might arise in places we are not expecting and are not caused by smoking. Let me give a possible example. We all know that PG causes dehydration. Is it possible that the huge amount of PG circulating in our blood and being distributed to all of our organs brings about general dehydration? I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's not impossible, it will possibly not appear before a few years and we and our doctors are not watching out for this.

And seeing an immediate amelioration to smoking symptoms is good and probably not seeing the changes for the worst tthat might happen because of vaping also feels good. But how many of us saw really bad effects from smoking after a few months or even a few years. These things take years to become perceptible.

So again I don't agree that vaping is so obviously better than smoking. I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying we just don't know yet, it's just too early.

And pleaes don't accuse me of trying to bring fear in the community. I'm pretty sure I am raising legitimate concerns and questions and it's not because I do love vaping that I'm just going to shut down my brain and ignore all possible consequences. Sorry, not going to happen. Vaping is my pleasure, not my religion.

And again I repeat I'm no expert but I believe that those who state so categorically that here are only 4 or 5 chemicals in a juice are wrong. From what I've read (again sorry can't post links) flavoring and coloring contain hundreds or thousands of different chemicals each and most flavors in our juices are made from a mix of different flavors.

And to all those who accuse me of this or that, I don't think that accusations are going to bring anything valid to the argumentation, it just proves that you are going into this blindly whithout asking yourselves too many questions.

I do thank those who bring valid and interesting arguments to the debate and hope to see more of those interventions.

Sorry for the long rant...

So do you think a smoker who wishes to quit and start vaping shouldn't, and should continue smoking until "long term" studies are complete? There isn't much that is worse than smoking. I think common sense says that vaping is a safer alternative, based on all the current information out there. Speaking of, have you read the numerous studies and reports that others have asked you to read? I will bet many of your questions and concerns will be addressed by them.

It's okay to have concerns. However, I think, with all the information available, it's ludicrous to state that smoking may be a safer alternative to vaping. I also feel if you haven't read those studies and reports, at this point, yet continue to argue your points here, then you don't want the truth. Most of what you are asking for is out there.

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loganfl22

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Im fairly new to vaping and by comparison I wasnt a smoker for nearly as long as a lot of people but I can say this... A cigarette has tons of known carcinogens along with the tar, the health risks of inhaling smoke in general. Now with that being said I agree that anything CAN be bad for you. Too much salad can give you an iron deficiency. So compared to smoking and ingesting all those chemicals I find myself rather content to vape because I cant see it being worse than smoking and I feel much better vaping than I did smoking. Also another thing to consider as many people bring up us not knowing what additives are being used in flavorings, Id still say that compared to analogs the list of variables is exponentially smaller. Just my take on this :)
 

battlefield

Full Member
Mar 1, 2014
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Some of the questions do seem valid - in any case, I think vapers should be careful that we do not overdo it. And we work towards coming out of vaping as well in the near term. A self identified approach towards quitting smoking through whatever means (gum, vaping) and then working towards quitting vaping itself (0% nicotine or otherwise) should be the way to go.
 

RosaJ

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Jun 30, 2012
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The Woodlands, TX, USA
OP:

Lets take up this subject 30 years from now, we all agree that the long term studies would be in by then. Of course, I'll be 95 years old, and if I'm around, I will definitely attribute it to vaping instead of smoking.

If you're really that worried about it, nobody's putting a gun to your head forcing you to vape. As for the young'uns being well informed, do you really think they get all the information they need to make an informed decision when they indulge in other more serious "habits?"

Honestly, your post sounds like you're trying to prove a point with someone in particular, maybe a member of your family or someone you know? Because, I don't think you really believe you're going to make brownie points here.
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
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Let's not forget that nicotine is addictive.

You've been reading too much propaganda. Please give me a reference to published research that shows nicotine is dependence-forming. There is no such thing.

There is no published clinical trial where pure nicotine was administered to never-smokers and a significant percentage became dependent. On the other hand, trials of this type have been conducted, and no subjects showed any sign of dependence (even after high-dose administration for 6 months).

Smoking often causes dependence (on smoking), and it can legitimately be called an addiction as harm can be demonstrated. Smoking often causes dependence on nicotine, which cannot be accurately described as addiction since nicotine consumption has no clinical significance (on average it causes no harm). Addiction to smoking involves inhalation of 9,600 compounds (the latest number identified by Rodgman, Perfetti 2013). There are multiple synergens for nicotine in tobacco smoke; nicotine alone has *never* been demonstrated to cause dependence.

One of the useful features of vaping is that ecigs can be used to reduce nicotine dependence caused by smoking, and more successfully than by any other method (many vapers reduce the nicotine strength consumed, over time). It is unlikely that ecigs will be shown to create nicotine dependence by any statistically-measurable method. That is to say, if 100 non-smokers take up vaping, and use a nicotine-containing refill, then it is unlikely that more than 1 person will become dependent. Or to put it another way, if 1,000 non-smokers take up vaping, it is likely that less than 10 will become dependent, and this number is not reliably identifiable statistically as it is less than 1%.
 
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