Yeah, it's really rather perverse how you can get drawn into these circular arguments and just spin all day, I think I'll step off this merry-go-round. Night all.
Authentic makers sueing Cloners?
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That reminds me of the post where somebody said they did some landscaping and them other people in the neighbourhood did the same thing and he felt angry about that!!
It's amazing
I'm kind of reminded of the 7 deadly sins; how does that go again?
pride envy wrath....
Point of order:
The thread topic juxtaposes authentic versus clones, and many replies have repeated this confusion.
An authentic is opposite to a counterfiet.
An original is opposite to a clone.
The anger and confusion comes from conflating the difference.
The thread topic juxtaposes authentic versus clones, and many replies have repeated this confusion.
An authentic is opposite to a counterfiet.
An original is opposite to a clone.
The anger and confusion comes from conflating the difference.
What cracks me up is these pro authentics people keep talking about trademarks, patents, and intellectual property as though they were some kind of mighty ethical lighthouse rather than legal terms. If it doesn't meet the legal definition of theft, then no theft has occurred. Willingness and ability to fight for these is a prerequisite part of that, not an option. Your moral stance on the issue is completely irrelevant.
No it's an economic and legal discussion, absolutely about manufacturing, are you unaware that the US manufacturing sector has collapsed and is largely to blame for the economic problems the country (and by influence much of the western world) faces?
obviously this is a vape matter as well. you can wish it wasn't as much as you like but in the end clones are exactly what these laws and economic structures are all about.
I like my clones. They're affordable and get the job done, plus they look pretty. Does that make me a bad person? If so, oh well. I already knew I'm a moral-less ...., don't need some Authentic worshiping elitist to tell me that.
Ummm. yeahhhh, I am aware that the US manufacturing sector has (more than) collapsed (and relates to the problems in the country); and it disturbs me greatly.
I should comment that I am not in or from the US.
The clone and knockoff matters is not specifically a vape matter, but it will always and has always come up with manufacturing of new products / developing of new industries / markets.
The loudest noises wastes of everybody's times is about language unable to distinguish between clones knockoffs and counterfeits.
Your last sentence is strange
where'd that come from
Ah okay, that explains why your views are counter to what the is in the interest of the majority of users here and should be discarded by anyone with those interests.
good proof though that clones work against the interests of developed economies and why it's important for first world consumers to choose other options.
There are laws against unfair trade practices as well which include wrongful representation of goods or services. While closely related to IP the laws pertaining to unfair trade practices remain distinct.
BTW nothing is illegal till you get caught ... right ... as long as you have enough money it still doesn't really matter does it. It is absurd to think that the act of taking something that does not belong to you does not constitute theft. More simply put if I take all of your money, and get caught, and somehow convince people of the jury that I was borrowing the money with every intent to return it, there exists no theft because a component of theft is to forever deprive you of the item taken. You know a theft occurred, I know a theft occurred, but in the legal mix no law was broken.
People get off on all sorts of technicalities, murder, theft, you name it.
Simply because a technicality makes an action not criminal, and the person not legally responsible, it does not take away the fact that an action is anything less than what it is. A person who takes something that is not theirs is a thief.
You can slice that and dice that just like OJ sliced and diced Nicole Brown Simpson & Ronald Goldman, it's all good, plenty of people think he isn't a murderer.
Maurice
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I contend, as I believe the plaintiffs for original makers will contend, that non-deceptive counterfeiting meets the legal definition of theft.
Perhaps we could post here the (various) legal definition(s) of theft, so this pertinent tangent can be addressed more accurately.
I am interested in how a moral stance is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
I am yet to own a mod in my vaping life that is nearly 3 years running. As things stand right now, I wouldn't pay $1 for a mod. If I were given one as a gift, I'd probably give it away to someone that would find more use with it. So, if there is 'elitism' occurring in this thread, I feel I'm on the lowest rung of the totem pole.
But am always fascinated how the pro-clone crowd weasels itself out of the theft assertion. It's kinda fun to watch really.
What you want is the elements that constitute theft, and a clear idea of what exactly was stolen.
I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure exactly how one would design a case against a clone/counterfeit manufacturer.
The approach might include some of the same aspects for both and individual reasoning were such reasoning does not apply to the other.
Case law is usually where a lawyers money is made, the volumes of case law amount to how other lawyers won or lost cases and finding the ones needed to support your case is tedious at best.
Maurice
So again, calling clone buyers thieves.. Or, at the very least, aiding and abetting crime.. 
So again, calling clone buyers thieves.. Or, at the very least, aiding and abetting crime..
That's exactly what it is, if not the former than certainly the latter. We all know it, whether we admit it or not. You knowingly buy fakes, you are playing in a grey area of the market at best, ethically and legally.
What you have to remember (as far as mechanical mods go at least) is that it's JUST a freaking metal tube with a button at the bottom to make a connection. Nothing special, nothing innovative, and nothing that should command a price over $30.00
If you're willing to pay $200-$500 for some fancy engraving then that's your business...but please remember in the end...it's a metal tube.
Now..if you are talking about VV/VW mods then I can see a slightly more expensive cost but...all of these chips are made in China...so the "authentic" mod makers are using the exact same chip and electronics as the "clones".
The only real difference I have seen are fit and finish. That's not to say it's not worth it to pay a bit more, but come on...seriously....it's still just a box/tube with a button and a chinese chip inside to regulate the voltage/wattage. Again...nothing special that should command huge money.
People need to remember that PV's are pretty much disposable at this point. If you get one and it lasts you a year you're way ahead of the game. A mechanical...well it should really last forever as long as you don't smash it.
If you're willing to pay $200-$500 for some fancy engraving then that's your business...but please remember in the end...it's a metal tube.
Now..if you are talking about VV/VW mods then I can see a slightly more expensive cost but...all of these chips are made in China...so the "authentic" mod makers are using the exact same chip and electronics as the "clones".
The only real difference I have seen are fit and finish. That's not to say it's not worth it to pay a bit more, but come on...seriously....it's still just a box/tube with a button and a chinese chip inside to regulate the voltage/wattage. Again...nothing special that should command huge money.
People need to remember that PV's are pretty much disposable at this point. If you get one and it lasts you a year you're way ahead of the game. A mechanical...well it should really last forever as long as you don't smash it.
This could not be further from the truth. And if you are this wrong on such a major, well-known issue, think about how wrong you are on everything else.
How many chips, processors, boards, parts ON those boards, etc are made in the United States? You're in for a shock.
These vaping elitists are insane. I think most of them are vaping as a trend. They jumped on the bandwagon and listened to "Fatty" or "Cisco" or whoever the next ..... is to come forward and overcharge for some machined parts he had a friend with a machine shop do.
I find it ironic that many here on ECF are pro-counterfeit, (1:1 copies including logos) when the very forum they are members of is totally against counterfeit vaping devices. 
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...does-ecf-not-allow-clones-2.html#post14165770
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...does-ecf-not-allow-clones-2.html#post14165770
I find it ironic that many here on ECF are pro-counterfeit, (1:1 copies including logos) when the very forum they are members of is totally against counterfeit vaping devices.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...does-ecf-not-allow-clones-2.html#post14165770
So are we going to start segregating everyone... again? I thought this was a forum to talk about vaping, not laws, ethics, and moral responsibility.
Some folks are handling it in an entirely new way. Hats off to ZEN. Brilliant
SEND IN THE CLONES! *NEW*
SEND IN THE CLONES! *NEW*
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