Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Maurice Pudlo]

While that's true, it would only be cost effective to apply in countries where your major markets were,

Wrong, I seriously doubt there is a major market for Caravela mods in China, and therein is the issue.

Protection if sought at all must be complete.

As has been said in every clone vs authentic thread, people want a lower priced version and if it is available they will find it in today's global economy.

Without patent protection everywhere, someone will clone your stuff.

In my eyes people who make authentic mods have priced their devices fairly, maybe not priced to target the entire scope of the existing market, but fairly never the less.

Forgoing patent protection is part of allowing the price to remain fair, and to some extent approachable to just about anyone who is truly interested in getting something nice.

Its far easier to understand when you look at the positive than more yourself in the negative.

Maurice

 

[Ed_C]

As far as I know, China will make clones no mater what protection has been sought, as they don't honor such things. But if there was a patent/trademark/copyright in place, in say, the US. won't the company have recourse in the US? I think they would, As far as patents, I don't believe any mech would qualify for one.

 

[Midniteoyl]

I'm a disabled vet, thank you very much;

Maurice

As am I.. 100% T&P... To say that I have to 'work harder' or tell others who were injured through no fault of their own, that its their fault through their 'life choices' is disingenuous, to say the least. The blanket statement you made is a classic example of an 'elitist' who thinks that everyone should be, or be able to be, just like them.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Umm.... now you're just pulling stuff out your rear end.




Seriously? Alright, I'm out of this thread. I'm gonna go shop for some clones.

$150-$300 is possible for any former smoker, any former smoker who truly wants to own something in that price range.

Own a smart phone? It likely will cost you far more over the term of your contract than most high end mods.

Own a computer and have internet service, way more than most authentic mods.

TV and cable, same deal.

Where legal a month of donations to a plasma center should net you enough spare cash to buy that authentic mod.

Have a truck, a bit of spare time, put a sign on it that you'll move peoples crap for a fee.

Watch a guy standing on a off ramp and count how many dollars he gets per hour, then look for your own off ramp; you'll have your money in a few hours.

Have a job, ask for over time.

If your truly unable to put aside any money at all, you are very likely living beyond your means.

Maurice

 

[Midniteoyl]

The point of the second part of my response is they do in fact sell to the same market. Almost all vapers can in fact afford a ~$150-$200 mod; perhaps not super high end originals but typical domestic DNA mods. Vaping, like smoking, is a nonessential expense that people find a place for in their budgets. Vaping demographics actually trend quite old, so we aren't talking about minimum-wage part-timers here with no concept of money management.



No, I know for a fact that everyone does NOT have the same morals and principles. That's what I wrote. That's why the law is required to force those people to do what [society believes] is right whether they like it or not. Again everyone wants something for nothing. Few should get it in a functional economy.

Fixed that for ya

 

[TheProphet]

Watch a guy standing on a off ramp and count how many dollars he gets per hour, then look for your own off ramp; you'll have your money in a few hours.

Wow. That is truly a new low, even for an elitist.

I will buy a clone long before I stand on the side of a road collecting money just so I can afford an "authentic" shiny tube. And I will feel fantastic about it.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Wrong, I seriously doubt there is a major market for Caravela mods in China, and therein is the issue.

Protection if sought at all must be complete.



Maurice

Wrong.. IF there is a patent in the US, the holder can stop the importation and sale of the infringing items. Yes, enforcement is harder than most think, and can get a little costly, but that is what lawyers are for - to take your money, and protect your 'rights'

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

As am I.. 100% T&P... To say that I have to 'work harder' or tell others who were injured through no fault of their own, that its their fault through their 'life choices' is disingenuous, to say the least. The blanket statement you made is a classic example of an 'elitist' who thinks that everyone should be, or be able to be, just like them.

The number of people who whine about how their station in life is no fault of their own is far greater than the number of people who are in fact in a bad place due to no fault of their own.

Look for sympathy from the gullible, while the determined pass you by.

Look at people who participate in the special Olympics if you need motivation to move beyond your disability. Not one of the competitors seeks out sympathy, they seek glory of overcoming the limits of their disability.

If you truly want something, nothing will stop you from getting it.

Maurice

 

[dr g]

As far as I know, China will make clones no mater what protection has been sought, as they don't honor such things. But if there was a patent/trademark/copyright in place, in say, the US. won't the company have recourse in the US? I think they would, As far as patents, I don't believe any mech would qualify for one.

Yes that is the mechanism for enforcement and denying China access to lucrative markets will change their business models. Large fairly legitimate companies in China are engaging in vaping counterfeiting; if the US market is locked down you will see those companies move on to products that CAN sell in the US.

It is, as noted, costly to achieve this, which is why so far it has not been done. Not because it can't be done, and the idea that only logos define counterfeits is false. Eventually if Hana continues on its path, a Hana mod and a Cloupor, et. al. will appear before a judge and he will find the clone infringing. This is how the Lanham Act works.

With those judgments in hand, Hana could then have customs stop shipments at the border, which would cost them a lot of money but eventually vaping companies will be financially strong enough to do it. Perhaps they could use their settlement funds and/or copyright judgments to fund it. And for the better, IMO.

The number of people who whine about how their station in life is no fault of their own is far greater than the number of people who are in fact in a bad place due to no fault of their own.

Look for sympathy from the gullible, while the determined pass you by.

Look at people who participate in the special Olympics if you need motivation to move beyond your disability. Not one of the competitors seeks out sympathy, they seek glory of overcoming the limits of their disability.

If you truly want something, nothing will stop you from getting it.

Maurice

As far as I know, no level of disability justifies theft, least of all when alternatives to theft exist.

Can and will are two different things. I'm not even sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying that all mods should be $150+ and that there shouldn't be any low cost options? You've lost me there.

The most commonly cloned mods, and perhaps the most famous one which is now serving as the test case in the courts for ending clone trafficking, fall into this price range.

It's a rare vaper indeed that hasn't spend $150+ on a nonessential purchase ... let alone on smokes.

 

[Midniteoyl]

The number of people who whine about how their station in life is no fault of their own is far greater than the number of people who are in fact in a bad place due to no fault of their own.

Look for sympathy from the gullible, while the determined pass you by.

Look at people who participate in the special Olympics if you need motivation to move beyond your disability. Not one of the competitors seeks out sympathy, they seek glory of overcoming the limits of their disability.

If you truly want something, nothing will stop you from getting it.

Maurice

You are making big huge sweeping, judgmental, assumptions again...

 

[Midniteoyl]

Yes that is the mechanism for enforcement and denying China access to lucrative markets will change their business models. Large fairly legitimate companies in China are engaging in vaping counterfeiting; if the US market is locked down you will see those companies move on to products that CAN sell in the US.

It is, as noted, costly to achieve this, which is why so far it has not been done. Not because it can't be done, and the idea that only logos define counterfeits is false. Eventually if Hana continues on its path, a Hana mod and a Cloupor, et. al. will appear before a judge and he will find the clone infringing. This is how the Lanham Act works.

With those judgments in hand, Hana could then have customs stop shipments at the border, which would cost them a lot of money but eventually vaping companies will be financially strong enough to do it. Perhaps they could use their settlement funds and/or copyright judgments to fund it. And for the better, IMO.



As far as I know, no level of disability justifies theft, least of all when alternatives to theft exist.



The most commonly cloned mods, and perhaps the most famous one which is now serving as the test case in the courts for ending clone trafficking, fall into this price range.

It's a rare vaper indeed that hasn't spend $150+ on a nonessential purchase ... let alone on smokes.

Theft, here in this context, is in your opinion...

 

[dr g]

Theft, here in this context, is in your opinion...

IP theft is not my opinion. But even if it were debatable, the fact that alternatives exist make it the least ethical choice.

 

[quest]

Lots of talk about legality. It's a battle of morals and values. I don't value the logistics behind an authentic mod enough to buy one. Manufacturers get to choose what value they think their products are, and I get to choose whether or not the value is worth it. If I am interested in a product but I don't acknowledge its value, I will look to see if there is a product on the market of similar or equal intrinsic qualities for half the price. In my eyes, this discussion of authentic vs clone is just another way for people to separate and build walls amongst each other.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

You are making big huge sweeping, judgmental, assumptions again...

Show me proof that I am wrong and I will happily retract the statement.

Maurice

 

[TheJakeBailey]

As much as it pains me to say this (I'm at least 75% joking) Maurice has very good points. It's easy to write him off because he is blunt in the extreme, abrasive, passionate, and unapologetic. But just because he rubs you the wrong way and makes you angry, doesn't mean he is wrong.

As I said earlier in the thread, I own clones and authentics. Taking into account everything I own, regulated and unregulated mods, atomizers, tanks, etc, i would say it's close to 50/50. As more affordable authentics come out, I hope to relegate my clones to at work use, because I don't care that much of they get damaged. So from a clone owner...I don't understand how ANYBODY can say that cloning isn't theft??? How can it be anything but theft. Do all of you actually need a law or a patent to tell you that? Have we come to the point as a society where everything is just fair game unless someone makes a law that says otherwise?

If you absolutely must have a mech mod to not smoke, you can get a Magneto, or any of many Sigelei mods, or Kamry, or etc, etc. Authentic mod makers, or clone makers for that matter, do not owe you anything. They make a product, that you can choose to purchase. If you want to vape and not smoke, it's not up to them to provide you with the means to do so. This is not a charity, and they are not in this to "save lives." They run a business. The clone manufacturers aren't giving you a lower price in the hopes that you will save yourself from a horrible cancerous death. They JUST WANT YOUR MONEY.

If you absolutely must have a mech mod to not smoke, and therefore to save your life, why does it matter which one you have? Wouldn't any functional and safe one do the trick?? After all, it's just a metal tube and a switch. Why does it have to be the one that looks like a rifle barrel, or have certain engravings, or a particular look? It wouldn't!! Those things that make one mod different from the others, are the things that took someone time and effort to come up with.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. Buy your clones, buy your authentics, make your own mod out of pipe and fittings from Home Depot if you want to. But at least have the guts to be honest with yourself about why you are doing what you do. "Buying clones does not affect me personally, so I don't really care. I will never feel bad for not supporting people who's products have been cloned. And none of that "if it was you," cause it isn't." This is at least an honest answer. I don't agree with it, but at least it's honest.

I own some clones. I also occasionally speed, and the inspection sticker on my Jeep is WAY expired. Nobody is perfect. But If I get pulled over, I'm not going to make excuses about why I shouldn't get a ticket for one or both. All of these excuses just get really tiring.

 

[VHRB2014]

I gotta ask the OP,

Have you ever created anything of value?

Have you ever been ripped off for the value of what it represented?

Randall

 

[Midniteoyl]

Show me proof that I am wrong and I will happily retract the statement.

Maurice

Hmm..

 

[Midniteoyl]

As much as it pains me to say this (I'm at least 75% joking) Maurice has very good points. It's easy to write him off because he is blunt in the extreme, abrasive, passionate, and unapologetic. But just because he rubs you the wrong way and makes you angry, doesn't mean he is wrong.

As I said earlier in the thread, I own clones and authentics. Taking into account everything I own, regulated and unregulated mods, atomizers, tanks, etc, i would say it's close to 50/50. As more affordable authentics come out, I hope to relegate my clones to at work use, because I don't care that much of they get damaged. So from a clone owner...I don't understand how ANYBODY can say that cloning isn't theft??? How can it be anything but theft. Do all of you actually need a law or a patent to tell you that? Have we come to the point as a society where everything is just fair game unless someone makes a law that says otherwise?

If you absolutely must have a mech mod to not smoke, you can get a Magneto, or any of many Sigelei mods, or Kamry, or etc, etc. Authentic mod makers, or clone makers for that matter, do not owe you anything. They make a product, that you can choose to purchase. If you want to vape and not smoke, it's not up to them to provide you with the means to do so. This is not a charity, and they are not in this to "save lives." They run a business. The clone manufacturers aren't giving you a lower price in the hopes that you will save yourself from a horrible cancerous death. They JUST WANT YOUR MONEY.

If you absolutely must have a mech mod to not smoke, and therefore to save your life, why does it matter which one you have? Wouldn't any functional and safe one do the trick?? After all, it's just a metal tube and a switch. Why does it have to be the one that looks like a rifle barrel, or have certain engravings, or a particular look? It wouldn't!! Those things that make one mod different from the others, are the things that took someone time and effort to come up with.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. Buy your clones, buy your authentics, make your own mod out of pipe and fittings from Home Depot if you want to. But at least have the guts to be honest with yourself about why you are doing what you do. "Buying clones does not affect me personally, so I don't really care. I will never feel bad for not supporting people who's products have been cloned. And none of that "if it was you," cause it isn't." This is at least an honest answer. I don't agree with it, but at least it's honest.

I own some clones. I also occasionally speed, and the inspection sticker on my Jeep is WAY expired. Nobody is perfect. But If I get pulled over, I'm not going to make excuses about why I shouldn't get a ticket for one or both. All of these excuses just get really tiring.

He doesnt make me angry, rub me the wrong way, and is wrong in his judgements


Wait.. so are YOU a thief? 'Cause thats sure what was implied before and what I answered too, ie; Clone buyers are stealing from the mod makers and the US economy. So, if you own clones, then you must be a thief, no?

The rest I mostly agree with. People are trying to make money. Other are trying to save it. To do both within the limits of the law are fair game, in my book, morals or not, since we are nation of laws. Dont like the current law, have it changed. Isnt that what we are always told in other aspects of life? We have laws. Follow those laws and things (usually) turn out all right. Dont wanna play by the laws? Then be prepared to get stomped and beaten. Cant afford to play by the laws? Well, like someone on this thread said many, many times 'Save up the money, sale blood, beg on a off ramp, make better life choices'.. I mean, if we have to do all that to afford a high priced, low value mod, shouldn't only be fair that the OEMs should have to do it too?

 

[TheJakeBailey]

He doesnt make me angry, rub me the wrong way, and is wrong in his judgements


Wait.. so are YOU a thief? 'Cause thats sure what was implied before and what I answered too, ie; Clone buyers are stealing from the mod makers and the US economy. So, if you own clones, then you must be a thief, no?

The rest I mostly agree with. People are trying to make money. Other are trying to save it. To do both within the limits of the law are fair game, in my book, morals or not, since we are nation of laws. Dont like the current law, have it changed. Isnt that what we are always told in other aspects of life? We have laws. Follow those laws and things (usually) turn out all right. Dont wanna play by the laws? Then be prepared to get stomped and beaten. Cant afford to play by the laws? Well, like someone on this thread said many, many times 'Save up the money, sale blood, beg on a off ramp, make better life choices'.. I mean, if we have to do all that to afford a high priced, low value mod, shouldn't only be fair that the OEMs should have to do it too?

My comment was not directed at you specifically, and I'm not sure how you got that impression. But to answer your questions..

Yes, you are absolutely right. I am a part of the problem. But at least I admit it. I admit that I bought my clones because they were cheap, looked cool, worked well, and had the markings of the ones that I could not afford. I never tried to pass one of as something other than a clone if asked, but that is beside the point. But then things started to change in the industry. There has been a flood of reasonably priced authentic mods and atties that have come out in the last few months. While I'm not willing to spend $500 on a mech mod, I'm certianly willing to spend a little more than I would have on a clone, and have a little bit cleaner of a conscience. That was MY decision, for ME. I own it, just as i won my past decisions.

As for your last sentence... nobody has to do anything. There are alternatives to clones. Plenty of them. People buy them for a reason, and it's not because there aren't any alternatives.

 

[Midniteoyl]

But are you a thief? Did you steal?