Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[stevegmu]

As i stand, the trend is necessary. those vapers with tight budget can own his cool fire mod cloner at a lower price, while high-income crowd can get a original one at a higher price. I think it's just a market choice. Those manufactures' decision is market-driven. For me, cloners are good with small difference quantity.

I see. I can't imagine what became of those poor vapers who only had cigalikes and eGos back in the day before 'clones'...

 

[rhean]

My opinion on this matter is this:

if the original item has no patent/trademark on it, then it's fine if someone cloned it. If the original patent has a design patent that only protects the look and appearance, then the clone must have some difference in appearance so that people would not confuse it with the original, otherwise it will infringe on the design patent. If the original item has an utility patent that protects the FUNCTION of the item, such as working principle, or an non-obvious improved design that offers unexpected benefits, then anyone that make a similar device would be infringing the patent, and such action should be strictly forbidden as it goes against everything an innovative, capitalistic nation like America stands for.

Luckily, most e cig devices are not very patentable from an utility perspective because they all use the same basic principle, that's why you see so many clones. I can't just change the shape or position or material of a coil post and patent my "new" atty because it's too obvious. In this case, I can't stop anyone from cloning my design. If, however, I discovered that by changing the atty chamber shape to a specific shape, I somehow improved vapor strength or volume by 1000%, for example, then this would be completely unexpected and non-obvious and I would expect to get paid for my R&D (patent it), and if someone want to clone my thing you can bet I would sue their .... off.

That's why I was wondering about the very early mods. A mech mod is a very simple thing, so there is a limit to how many build changes you can make to it. The basic build has been there from the beginning.

Take my Cartel clone and my Launcher clone. Both have recessed buttons, more or less the same concept, so I'm not sure how that can be patented by anyone but the person who came up with it first. The 510 connection can't be patented by original mod makers. The nature of metal--nature of copper, brass, ss--is not patentable. You can't patent a combination of copper metal, recessed switch, and 510 connection, as many original mods use this. Venting is a safety feature; I can't see how this could be patented by anyone other than the original inventor of that concept. You're left with the size/appearance of the tube, the logo, and the exact size-nature of the contacts. I'm sure you can patent the original Cartel's appearance, complete with logo.

In that case, a clone maker could stay legal by putting an extra groove into the tube, or putting two vents on the tube which the Cartel doesn't have, or changing the logo, or changing original Cartel's brass contacts to copper. My Launcher clone has a completely different logo than the original, as does my m16 clone. My Cartel is not the Infinite version, and has thinner copper contacts instead of the thicker silver/brass ones. The size of the firing button assembly is different.

I don't see taking clone makers to court making much of a difference. Make tiny changes, market as "unNemsis," or whatever.

 

[retird]

Just a side note.... the lawsuits that I've seen involve trademark and/or patent infringement of devices other than tube clones/counterfeits ... very different situation than tube clones been discussed here.... and yes their are utility patents being infringed....not only by cloners but by everyone making a device that incorporates intellectual property covered by the utility patent....

 

[stevegmu]

It is the names, most of all. Every cloneI have seen for sale is using the name of the original to sell their product. How people don't see that as wrong, I just don't understand...

 

[Jman8]

Unless the clones are 100% ripping off the original product (name as well as asthetics), I don't see the point in it being illegal.

Especially considering all the things throughout time that have been ripped off and sold with much less changed than one simple graphic (or part of a graphic) (Can we say: movies, books, art, music, ect, ect, ect, EVERY-DERNED-THING).

Is it worth it to choke the market and make vapers unable to access hardware that keeps them off cigarettes so that some companies can get a few extra hundreds of dollars and hold on to something that is easily duplicated, but helps people quit and stay off cigarettes?

What's next? Sue every single person who puts their own text into a Coco-Cola logo and prints it on a shirt?

I would say the point of making knock-offs illegal is so the people that first went to market are not adversely affected by them who came along later with virtually identical product at lower cost.

I would be interested in the examples of cloned movies, books, art, music, etc. that you are alluding to. Not sure if you are referencing remakes or piracy.

IMO, if you are copying something without explicit authorization to do so, the fair thing is to give some of your revenue to the originator. How that looks exactly (in all cases) would be up to attorneys and simple business integrity. If all current vaping devices are copying utility patent of original eCig, and don't have explicit authorization to be doing so, then IMO all current vaping devices ought to be giving portions of their revenue to the original holder of that patent. Now, if that patent doesn't exist and yet the case is still pretty clear about who came first, I still think integrity would deem it appropriate to share the revenue. Still can charge whatever (low) price you want for your copy-cat, but just share the wealth with those who came before you, say up to 20 years of your product being in mass distribution.

If you create derivative work that is not substantially the same (thus not really a knock-off), then likely all that is owed is credit to the original. And if copy-cat is made off this derivative, then copier ought to share revenue with the derivative maker.

IMO, this is the principle at work, or ought to be. If manufacturers are blatantly circumventing the principle, then the point of making it illegal is to bring attention to what is going on in this market, hopefully slowing that momentum and icing on the cake if copy-cat revenue can be diverted, to some extent from manufacturers of the copies to originators of the product.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

Please show me where a $24 clone outperforms any number of the authentic mod on the under $100 list that argument is almost laughable

well its not $24, but the $40 stingray x clone performs the same as the $240 authentic. i had a video link to proof of that but it was taking down cause vapingwithtwisted420 curses a lot in his review videos lol.

 

[NathanielFT]

Ha good luck suing cloners, if nike and rolex cant stop fakes what chance does a mod maker have who's a nobody in comparison even as a collective, they can only effect vendors thats it lol.

The answer? Outsource production to China like every other successful hardware company, that'll bring costs down and increase supply so gear can be sold normally, and not force people to join pretentious forums and facebook groups to join a list and wait forever, thats a bigger put off then the prices. As long as mod makers act like their devices are for an elite few clones will continue thrive, and many including me will continue to support them


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[JRIP]

I don't care about the authentic vs clone mod discussion, nobody is going to win. I buy authentic you buy whatever you want.

I think the more important topic is for the less informed vapers using these Chinese VV/VW devices with Aspire and Kanger products... these products have as many fakes out there as authentics. If you buy a knockoff Nautilus or ProTank... god only knows what you're inhaling off the coil and wicking material... these are the vapers that need to be educated. I see fake Aspire products all of the time and I feel sorry for whoever is inhaling from those.

Buy from legit stores, stop using FastTech for crying outloud.

 

[Ed_C]

I don't care about the authentic vs clone mod discussion, nobody is going to win. I buy authentic you buy whatever you want.

I think the more important topic is for the less informed vapers using these Chinese VV/VW devices with Aspire and Kanger products... these products have as many fakes out there as authentics. If you buy a knockoff Nautilus or ProTank... god only knows what you're inhaling off the coil and wicking material... these are the vapers that need to be educated. I see fake Aspire products all of the time and I feel sorry for whoever is inhaling from those.

Buy from legit stores, stop using FastTech for crying outloud.

I'm not so convinced that even the legit tanks are good. I had a legit Mini Protank II that I soaked in vodka and the plating and the blacking that makes the bottom black-chrome started to come off.

 

[Rossum]

The answer? Outsource production to China like every other successful hardware company

Yep, let's not make anything at all in the first world anymore; after all the Chinese are willing to make everything for less. We'll support ourselves by selling each other "financial services," right?

 

[JRIP]

I'm not so convinced that even the legit tanks are good. I had a legit Mini Protank II that I soaked in vodka and the plating and the blacking that makes the bottom black-chrome started to come off.

I agree, I no longer use any pre-made Chinese coils/wicks. The details in my signature is my only device and preferred day to day setup.

 

[Ed_C]

They could do like what Fender does, They have their made in the US models, some made in Mexico and others from China. That way the can hit a range of price points.

 

[Ed_C]

Yep, let's not make anything at all in the first world anymore; after all the Chinese are willing to make everything for less. We'll support ourselves by selling each other "financial services," right?

I agree that we have screwed ourselves, but now that cat's out of the bag, I'm not sure how we'd get it back in the bag.

 

[NathanielFT]

Yep, let's not make anything at all in the first world anymore; after all the Chinese are willing to make everything for less. We'll support ourselves by selling each other "financial services," right?

Not sure if your reply was sarcastic but i'll entertain it anyway - Whats the selling point of having something made in your home country? Does it make it better? A patriotic thing? All i know is China has the power to produce anything we can make in the west and many things we can't on a huge scale, and if China can successfully Manufacturer high quality smartphones, tablets, toys, games consoles etc. they can make high quality ecigs, and all the R&D and development can take place here beforehand.

Whether you like it or not, as long as items are batch produced in the West they will be expensive, hard to get hold of, and cloned.


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[Rossum]

Whats the selling point of having something made in your home country?

To keep too much of it from looking like this.

 

[Ed_C]

and all the R&D and development can take place here beforehand

Or Korea (Samsung, LG), Japan (Toyota, Honda). Seems to me that we make very little product and we are not developing as much in the US either. Not Good.

Of course making mods in the US won't help the big picture one iota.

 

[samcm010]

well its not $24, but the $40 stingray x clone performs the same as the $240 authentic. i had a video link to proof of that but it was taking down cause vapingwithtwisted420 curses a lot in his review videos lol.

Even if that is true and that all Stingray X clones are equally made which is doubtful and I am sure I could dig up reviews that agree and some that disagree ( in my opinion because some of the clones are decent and some are not luck of the draw) The fact still remains that with very close to that $40 you could get something that did not steal the logo that will perform just as well.

 

[ItTechy]

Even if that is true and that all Stingray X clones are equally made which is doubtful and I am sure I could dig up reviews that agree and some that disagree ( in my opinion because some of the clones are decent and some are not luck of the draw) The fact still remains that with very close to that $40 you could get something that did not steal the logo that will perform just as well.

I have read many good points and counter points in this thread.

I fully believe you are on to something here!

Lets take the Hcigar Taifun clone; from what I have been told it is a dead ringer for the German original, and from what I have seen of it, it also is a dead ringer including logos, and even a serial number!

So yes I have a bit of a problem in spending $40.00 on something I know is ripping off the originator in some form or fashion, many of which (points and counter points) have already been pointed out here.

Now then if Hcigar made the same atty without any of the logos, or trade marks, well that is quite different; as a matter of fact to be in copy right compliance there only has to be a deviation of 20% from the original design (so I have been told) to be legal and not infringe on someone else' intellectual property, be it a design of a mod, or atty, etc.

Point well taken!

 

[dr g]

Now then if Hcigar made the same atty without any of the logos, or trade marks, well that is quite different; as a matter of fact to be in copy right compliance there only has to be a deviation of 20% from the original design (so I have been told) to be legal and not infringe on someone else' intellectual property, be it a design of a mod, or atty, etc.

Not sure if you realize but removing logos does not change the design of the device at all.

 

[The Cloud Minder]

Not sure if you realize but removing logos does not change the design of the device at all.

So, add a heat sink fin. Boom, done.