Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[graffiti]

The problem is, we are looking are lacking innovation and development and at least some of that is due to the market, the realistic market that's global. Cloning mods and developing, designing, testing, and then manufacturing mods are two completely different animals.

I keep seeing this. Can you explain what development, design (other than logos) and testing goes into a mech mod? I can't see how there'd be any real dev or design.

But the problem I see as being what will give our community the biggest hit, is the stifling of new innovative products.

Which new innovative products are in the mech field? The Skeleton Key lock is interesting, but ultimately it works just like every other direct contact mech out there.

Manufacturing the mods themselves would be cheap on labor, but they are going to have to purchase or lease the equipment to machine the parts, pay overhead on the facility assuming it's someone like myself who has an office and shop sitting vacant on commercial property where manufacturing can take place, pay the sales and use taxes, purchase all the software needed, make or have someone make the appropriate tools and dies to machine the parts, cover enough insurance premiums to at least get the first batch out without being shut down, etc. Or they'll have to pay for the time and labor of whatever machine shop or manufacturing facility they hire, cover the tooling and machine setup fees, etc.

Look at successful, public modders. Take Zen. He didn't start his machine shop doing mods, he was a successful machinist before he started modding. Look at the guys who run Evolv. The blonde one (can't remember his name) was already running a successful chip building business. You make it sound like everyone in the field just up and decided to go out and start a machine shop, and that's not true as far as I can tell.

So now the mod maker has successfully made all that happen somehow and kept the banks financing the operating capitol off their backs long enough to get the first run produced and sent to the distributors with connections in the retail world. They manage to sell the mods for $50.00 each to break even for the initial investment. The first 1000 gets off to the distribution chain.

So now that they've survived the first run and have made okay money, why doesn't production ramp up? Why are they always out of stock? Look at one of the most popular mechs, the Nemesis. You can't find a legit one to buy unless you're down with the 16340 form factor. Where is the reinvestment into production capacity? Why does it seem like nobody can do that? Or is it that modders realize that if the market has enough supply everyone will realize that the mod is made out of SS and not gold and not worth nearly $200.

Now that there's an authentic best of the best top selling mod hitting the markets, a lot of buzz is created. While waiting on reviews to start coming back on that first 1,000 pieces, Mr. ModMaker checks out the forums, and sees the big news. "Vaper Billy Bob's Blog has just announced, Mr. ModMaker clones are being produced and sold for $20 with the discount code "ugotscrewed".

Mr ModMaker had every opportunity to use Chinese production to keep up with demand. He didn't want to deal with it, or was happy with his profit, and therefore did not. Now the factory itself is seeing demand for the mod, so instead of selling through the designer, they sell to the public. That's capitalism.

What it boils down to is that mod makers do not want authentic mods readily available because then they aren't 'luxury goods' that they are now. Having a legit Skeleton Key or Nemesis or whatever is akin to having the new iPhone on release day. It's a status symbol because not everyone can have one. If the mod makers wanted to change this, it would be very easy.

You made a good point as you're an American who wants more for less. Just think if you lived in China you might be able to save enough money to buy a Chinese clone. Whatever job you have they can do it for less in China, so don't gripe if you lose your job.

And that's somehow different from American makers who are unwilling to provide enough product to satisfy demand and want protection from the courts? They want Ferrari prices on a Ford with nice door hinges and a solid clear coat. It's ridiculous.

 

[snork]

I'm not discussing the legitimacy of clones or doing that clone vs original bollox, i'm just saying that china is producing quality clones nowadays, they are getting better and better and will soon be bought not to be a 'sampler' to gauge an authentic purchase but bought in place of it - unless the buyer has moral or concerns or something.

Mod makers need to change the way they market and do business as as not everyone has facebook or wants to join groups, invite only forums and lists to obtain them, or more and more people will just get the clone. Like i said before the mutation x is a good example of an american designed RDA made in china, no supply issues, no quality issues a well made and well received rda at a steal of a price.

Someone said releasing the stumpy kit for the rose clone is too far and they should be left with something, i was gonna buy the original for my clone but its £40+ delivery and never in stock. Thats an open goal for cloners


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I'm waiting for my Stumpy kit too. Hopefully Lee and Andy (yes, these people have names) won't be too discouraged to ever make me one, if they are, I'm good.

 

[NathanielFT]

I'm waiting for my Stumpy kit too. Hopefully Lee and Andy (yes, these people have names) won't be too discouraged to ever make me one, if they are, I'm good.

I know they are people inventing these things not robots and they are probably nice guys who will miss sales because of clones, but they aren't my friends and i don't owe them anything, it sounds harsh in writing but i'm just a consumer i've got options and only the mod maker can change the way the market is, and unfortunately the market is fast paced and aggressive, but name a market where everything is aboveboard and everyone plays nice and follows the rules.


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[snork]

I know they are people inventing these things not robots and they are probably nice guys who will miss sales because of clones, but they aren't my friends and i don't owe them anything, it sounds harsh in writing but i'm just a consumer i've got options and only the mod maker can change the way the market is, and unfortunately the market is fast paced and aggressive, but name a market where everything is aboveboard and everyone plays nice and follows the rules.


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I can't name such a market. But I can say without a doubt that the way I've played has rewarded me mightily.

 

[bluecat]

Who is Lee and Andy? I know names now of people I will never meet. I feel all tingly inside now.

I bet it wasn't Sven in China that made my clone.

I do not know the guys name that made my toaster.. my refrigerator.. It is a consumable product or the Creamer I put in my coffee.. No one cares to know their name as much as they care to know my name.

 

[dr g]

I keep seeing this. Can you explain what development, design (other than logos) and testing goes into a mech mod? I can't see how there'd be any real dev or design.

Which new innovative products are in the mech field? The Skeleton Key lock is interesting, but ultimately it works just like every other direct contact mech out there.

Look at successful, public modders. Take Zen. He didn't start his machine shop doing mods, he was a successful machinist before he started modding. Look at the guys who run Evolv. The blonde one (can't remember his name) was already running a successful chip building business. You make it sound like everyone in the field just up and decided to go out and start a machine shop, and that's not true as far as I can tell.

So now that they've survived the first run and have made okay money, why doesn't production ramp up? Why are they always out of stock? Look at one of the most popular mechs, the Nemesis. You can't find a legit one to buy unless you're down with the 16340 form factor. Where is the reinvestment into production capacity? Why does it seem like nobody can do that? Or is it that modders realize that if the market has enough supply everyone will realize that the mod is made out of SS and not gold and not worth nearly $200

Mr ModMaker had every opportunity to use Chinese production to keep up with demand. He didn't want to deal with it, or was happy with his profit, and therefore did not. Now the factory itself is seeing demand for the mod, so instead of selling through the designer, they sell to the public. That's capitalism.

What it boils down to is that mod makers do not want authentic mods readily available because then they aren't 'luxury goods' that they are now. Having a legit Skeleton Key or Nemesis or whatever is akin to having the new iPhone on release day. It's a status symbol because not everyone can have one. If the mod makers wanted to change this, it would be very easy.

And that's somehow different from American makers who are unwilling to provide enough product to satisfy demand and want protection from the courts? They want Ferrari prices on a Ford with nice door hinges and a solid clear coat. It's ridiculous.

Try doing it yourself if you think it's so easy and there is so much money in it. Few modmakers start out as financially secure and flush with capital as Zen, and nobody at all is doing what Evolv is doing. These are our industry's titans and even THEY have trouble meeting demand at times.

I 100% guarantee you it isn't half as easy or profitable as you think it is, and the idea that supply is artificially limited is ridiculous and asinine.

 

[retird]

I support the modmakers, not the counterfeiters.

Hope you don't mind me replacing your quote above...... just had to LIKE your sig line.... my sig line sports and supports a couple US companies and I am a "hobby modder" who does know what it takes to make a quality mod and the costs involved....

 

[graffiti]

Try doing it yourself if you think it's so easy and there is so much money in it. Few modmakers start out as financially secure and flush with capital as Zen, and nobody at all is doing what Evolv is doing. These are our industry's titans and even THEY have trouble meeting demand at times.

I 100% guarantee you it isn't half as easy or profitable as you think it is, and the idea that supply is artificially limited is ridiculous and asinine.

See, though, this is the problem with this whole thread. You address one paragraph out of my whole post.

It's not easy, sure. But it's not building a space shuttle, either. If you've got a few grand and can find a custom machine shop (which nearly every town has somewhere) you can create a $200 mech.

You did not address the obvious problem of false scarcity that could easily be remedied (as proven by clones) that is so pervasive in this industry. Interestingly, it's exactly as pervasive as cloning. As I pointed out a dozen pages ago, Provari has never been successfully cloned. And that's because they keep up with production. Why are you going to buy a fake when the real deal is sitting right there in any one of hundreds of B&Ms or online? You're not going to.

I would love to own a real 18650 Nemesis. They're simply not available. Every other switch I've seen has issues. But I can't find one, at any price. There's something wrong with that.

I have exactly zero sympathy for a company or designer who complains about cloning and that can't or won't make their product readily available.

 

[Technonut]

I would love to own a real 18650 Nemesis. They're simply not available. Every other switch I've seen has issues. But I can't find one, at any price. There's something wrong with that

Must not be looking very hard.. Are you going to buy one now?

https://eshop.atmomixani.gr/en/10-nemesis-devices

Nemesis Mod

 

[graffiti]

Must not be looking very hard.. Are you going to buy one now?

https://eshop.atmomixani.gr/en/10-nemesis-devices

Nemesis Mod

Cool story bro, but my option is paypal or a debit card that doesn't work outside the US. Show me a single US vendor.

 

[Technonut]

Cool story bro, but my option is paypal or a debit card that doesn't work outside the US. Show me a single US vendor.

Not a story.. The story part is that they are not available... Many of us manage to make purchases out of the country.. A pre-paid VISA should work nicely.. That is if you really want one as badly as you say..

 

[NathanielFT]

A point mentioned in a vapor joes blog thats very true is that if these mod makers can fund a legal team with the power to do what they say they're doing then they are clearly making a healthy profit from vapegear and are not the struggling vaper juggling a hobby and 2 jobs and also a single mum like many try to portray them to be.

They could be using the money to make big things happen with production to increase supply while lowering costs per unit, making clones unnecessary. But they'd rather invest in a fight to keep the industry strangled, so their products appear more exclusive and so they can continue profiteering or whatever is motivating them to keep supply of their own product stifled while trying to tell people they cant even discuss or display photos of clones on forums let alone buy and use them.


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[graffiti]

They could be using the money to make big things happen with production to increase supply while lowering costs per unit, making clones unnecessary. But they'd rather invest in a fight to keep the industry strangled, so their products appear more exclusive and so they can continue profiteering or whatever is motivating them to keep supply of their own product stifled while trying to tell people they cant even discuss or display photos of clones on forums let alone buy and use them.

Which is truly the new American way.

Not a story.. The story part is that they are not available... Many of us manage to make purchases out of the country.. A pre-paid VISA should work nicely.. That is if you really want one as badly as you say..

I would love to own one, but I will not. Because I refuse to play the limited availability pseudo-rare lucky if you get one game.

 

[Technonut]

A point mentioned in a vapor joes blog thats very true is that if these mod makers can fund a legal team with the power to do what they say they're doing then they are clearly making a healthy profit from vapegear and are not the struggling vapor juggling a hobby and 2 jobs and also a single mum like many try to portray them to be.

They could be using the money to make big things happen with production to increase supply while lowering costs per unit, making clones unnecessary. But they'd rather invest in a fight to keep the industry strangled, so their products appear more exclusive and so they can continue profiteering or whatever is motivating them to keep supply of their own product stifled while trying to tell people they cant even discuss or display photos of clones on forums let alone buy and use them.


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Why should they lower their prices? many of us gladly pay the price for their designs / work. Before these 1:1 counterfeits hit the market, if you could not, or did not want to afford a certain mod, you simply could not have it. What do we have going on here, vaping Socialism? Everyone deserves to have the same mod which others have gladly paid the maker / designer for? For a fraction of the original's cost? There are lot's of things in life I simply cannot (or do not want to) afford. I move on to other items that I can afford, which do not make me feel like a poser to own and use ..

As pointed out in this thread before.. There are now quite a few affordable devices out there that are not counterfeits, with more coming to market everyday.

 

[Heldar]

Why should they lower their prices? many of us gladly pay the price for their designs / work. Before these 1:1 counterfeits hit the market, if you could not, or did not want to afford a certain mod, you simply could not have it. What do we have going on here, vaping Socialism? Everyone deserves to have the same mod which others have gladly paid the maker / designer for? For a fraction of the original's cost? There are lot's of things in life I simply cannot (or do not want to) afford. I move on to other items that I can afford, which do not make me feel like a poser to own and use ..

As pointed out in this thread before.. There are now quite a few affordable devices out there that are not counterfeits, with more coming to market everyday.

Vaper socialism? No. Its simple economics. They make mods. They price mods at high price. They can do that all they want, no problem. People who dont want to or can't pay that price look for alternatives. China fills the gap and provides alternatives. Its as simple as that.

 

[vaptamist]

So first they were unavailable, now it's that they are "limited available". Do you want to backpedal a little further and just admit it's not about availability, and that it's actually just that you'd rather pay clone pricing?

 

[Technonut]

Vaper socialism? No. Its simple economics. They make mods. They price mods at high price. They can do that all they want, no problem. People who dont want to or can't pay that price look for alternatives. China fills the gap and provides alternatives. Its as simple as that.

And those alternatives could be items other than 1:1 counterfeits.. If one wants to take the ride, buy the damn ticket.. Pay the cost of admission.

 

[Hawaiian Nate]

Sorry wrong post

 

[jimbodaddy74]

Cry harder.

 

[NathanielFT]

Why should they lower their prices? many of us gladly pay the price for their designs / work. Before these 1:1 counterfeits hit the market, if you could not, or did not want to afford a certain mod, you simply could not have it. What do we have going on here, vaping Socialism? Everyone deserves to have the same mod which others have gladly paid the maker / designer for? For a fraction of the original's cost? There are lot's of things in life I simply cannot (or do not want to) afford. I move on to other items that I can afford, which do not make me feel like a poser to own and use ..

As pointed out in this thread before.. There are now quite a few affordable devices out there that are not counterfeits, with more coming to market everyday.

Yes i've seen the socialist spiel posted many times on this forum but i think its just simple economics as stated by @Heldar above. The way the mod makers are choosing to operate as i described in the post you quoted, they are creating a gap in the market which cloners are filling.

At the moment it seems no western mod maker wants to mass produce high quality gear in their quest to get 'people off stinkies', everyone wants to own an exclusive boutique to maximise profit per item they produce. Well with 'luxury' comes copies, just ask gucci, louis vuitton and rolex. The difference is while companies like gucci, louis vuitton and rolex charge premiums, they also use precious and high quality materials and extremely skillful production processes which makes them worth the price, and also makes them impossible to be copied to the same standard. They also have no supply issues.

With ecigs on the other hand, they are using ss/brass/copper/aluminium, all available in abundance in China - in the same grades, as you'd expect from the manufacturing powerhouse of the planet. The production processes have no real skill so can be copied identically, so we end up with clones that are getting better and better, matching (and sometimes superseding) the originals in quality, with ample stock, at a price that truly reflects what the device is and how much its worth.

The TRUE luxury mods like the BT 5th series, Glas ti, steampunk, etc. could never be cloned perfectly, and those are the only type of devices worthy of the exclusive boutique-type of sale strategy currently rife and strangling the industry.

Also I don't make the same connotation as you appear to between vape gear and some sort of social status; i don't feel like a poser using clones, nor do i get a hard on or feel important using an original piece.


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