Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Jman8]

Intellectual property and physical property are not the same thing, acting as if they are is dishonest at best.

IOW, you hate the free market.

 

[twall]

I hate to add to this "innovation" bit, but just because the concept is simple, does not mean innovation cannot take place. Or that design alone is not something that may need to be protected.

Take the wheel. Very simple stuff. But tell Cragar that there is no innovation in the millenia old basic design of the wheel.

I understand the point of the simplicity of the mech mod. However, that does not mean there is nothing to innovate on. Ergonomics and safety come to mind as places innovation could/may soon take place.

The common handbag is another example. Stupid simple idea that has been around for centuries. Aside from extra pockets and whatnot, the style IS the innovation. A handbag is all about style, sometimes to the point of overtaking any practicality.

The Reo seems to not just be a simple tube with a button. It seems quite innovative to me. I don't know a lot about it, but seeing pics of it, it is definitely different from a tube mod. But, it apparently uses the same basic concept.

So, just because there is a sea of boringly simple tubes, doesn't mean there is not room for innovation. Making something different isn't so easy, and it doesn't come cheap to find people with vision to take such an old concept as a handbag, a wheel, or a simple circuit mod - to new levels

 

[smokinGAVIN]

I have a story to tell and it’s up to you guys if you want to agree or disagree but I feel this is somewhat related or if not an example of what is really going on here.

I am a designer. I went to school and paid a hell of a lot of tuition to develop my skills as such. After graduating and a couple odd jobs that are related to my field, I started my own company. I designed small furniture and home accessories. I design a product, make samples and then join trade shows to sell my designs. It took some time before before the business took off but it eventually did. I was able to get an order from one of the big chains in the US. A small order at first then after gaining their trust a huge order of the same product. I used whatever resources I had and a few loans to fix up my little factory to accommodate the order. When the new factory was done it was time to purchase the raw materials and that’s the time I got the bad news. They told me that they will pull the product from the catalogue and wait until the next season. I still continued to do business after that incident but the huge overhead of the new factory plus loan repayments killed me and I eventually had to close shop. It’s not that easy to make a new product fly.

After a few months I was somehow able to get a hold of their catalogue and I was shocked to see my product in the catalogue. After some long and heated debates they finally admitted that someone from China approached them and offered the same product, of which his initial sample was bought from their store, at a cheaper price. I was just starting out so I could not afford international lawsuits. My product was patented in my own country only because I could not apply for a patent in a country of which I have no legal entity of.

As for the profits, there is not that much profit as you guys think there is. You have to consider there are middlemen and retailers who take a surprisingly big chunk of the pie.

As far as I know, I did everything right and got screwed in the end so I just stopped trying and went on to other things. Thank god those other things panned out and I am living well now.

 

[Heldar]

I have a story to tell and it’s up to you guys if you want to agree or disagree but I feel this is somewhat related or if not an example of what is really going on here.

I am a designer. I went to school and paid a hell of a lot of tuition to develop my skills as such. After graduating and a couple odd jobs that are related to my field, I started my own company. I designed small furniture and home accessories. I design a product, make samples and then join trade shows to sell my designs. It took some time before before the business took off but it eventually did. I was able to get an order from one of the big chains in the US. A small order at first then after gaining their trust a huge order of the same product. I used whatever resources I had and a few loans to fix up my little factory to accommodate the order. When the new factory was done it was time to purchase the raw materials and that’s the time I got the bad news. They told me that they will pull the product from the catalogue and wait until the next season. I still continued to do business after that incident but the huge overhead of the new factory plus loan repayments killed me and I eventually had to close shop. It’s not that easy to make a new product fly.

After a few months I was somehow able to get a hold of their catalogue and I was shocked to see my product in the catalogue. After some long and heated debates they finally admitted that someone from China approached them and offered the same product, of which his initial sample was bought from their store, at a cheaper price. I was just starting out so I could not afford international lawsuits. My product was patented in my own country only because I could not apply for a patent in a country of which I have no legal entity of.

As for the profits, there is not that much profit as you guys think there is. You have to consider there are middlemen and retailers who take a surprisingly big chunk of the pie.

As far as I know, I did everything right and got screwed in the end so I just stopped trying and went on to other things. Thank god those other things panned out and I am living well now.

I feel your pain i do. It's just that some people seem to forget that not all of us are well off, or even getting by. Using myself as an example, I'm an army vet working in my feild of choice, and at 25 single with no kids, im barely scraping by. It takes me 3 months to save up for a $200 mod. If our economy continues as it is, i wont be able to afford my apartment any more, either. I prefer to buy American authentic stuff, but when they cant provide a product that doesnt break my wallet, i look for alternatives, right or wrong.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

I have a story to tell and it’s up to you guys if you want to agree or disagree but I feel this is somewhat related or if not an example of what is really going on here.

I am a designer. I went to school and paid a hell of a lot of tuition to develop my skills as such. After graduating and a couple odd jobs that are related to my field, I started my own company. I designed small furniture and home accessories. I design a product, make samples and then join trade shows to sell my designs. It took some time before before the business took off but it eventually did. I was able to get an order from one of the big chains in the US. A small order at first then after gaining their trust a huge order of the same product. I used whatever resources I had and a few loans to fix up my little factory to accommodate the order. When the new factory was done it was time to purchase the raw materials and that’s the time I got the bad news. They told me that they will pull the product from the catalogue and wait until the next season. I still continued to do business after that incident but the huge overhead of the new factory plus loan repayments killed me and I eventually had to close shop. It’s not that easy to make a new product fly.

After a few months I was somehow able to get a hold of their catalogue and I was shocked to see my product in the catalogue. After some long and heated debates they finally admitted that someone from China approached them and offered the same product, of which his initial sample was bought from their store, at a cheaper price. I was just starting out so I could not afford international lawsuits. My product was patented in my own country only because I could not apply for a patent in a country of which I have no legal entity of.

As for the profits, there is not that much profit as you guys think there is. You have to consider there are middlemen and retailers who take a surprisingly big chunk of the pie.

As far as I know, I did everything right and got screwed in the end so I just stopped trying and went on to other things. Thank god those other things panned out and I am living well now.

If they were able to get out of the order with no repercussions, you did something wrong. Sorry it happened to you, but it seems you were not as proactive as you could have been in protecting your interests in the deal and got burned.

 

[twall]

I have a story to tell and it’s up to you guys if you want to agree or disagree but I feel this is somewhat related or if not an example of what is really going on here.

I am a designer. I went to school and paid a hell of a lot of tuition to develop my skills as such. After graduating and a couple odd jobs that are related to my field, I started my own company. I designed small furniture and home accessories. I design a product, make samples and then join trade shows to sell my designs. It took some time before before the business took off but it eventually did. I was able to get an order from one of the big chains in the US. A small order at first then after gaining their trust a huge order of the same product. I used whatever resources I had and a few loans to fix up my little factory to accommodate the order. When the new factory was done it was time to purchase the raw materials and that’s the time I got the bad news. They told me that they will pull the product from the catalogue and wait until the next season. I still continued to do business after that incident but the huge overhead of the new factory plus loan repayments killed me and I eventually had to close shop. It’s not that easy to make a new product fly.

After a few months I was somehow able to get a hold of their catalogue and I was shocked to see my product in the catalogue. After some long and heated debates they finally admitted that someone from China approached them and offered the same product, of which his initial sample was bought from their store, at a cheaper price. I was just starting out so I could not afford international lawsuits. My product was patented in my own country only because I could not apply for a patent in a country of which I have no legal entity of.

As for the profits, there is not that much profit as you guys think there is. You have to consider there are middlemen and retailers who take a surprisingly big chunk of the pie.

As far as I know, I did everything right and got screwed in the end so I just stopped trying and went on to other things. Thank god those other things panned out and I am living well now.

No, no no. You tried gouging the poor customer so you could afford month long excursions to the Caymens and that new Rolls-Royce. Stop trying to buffalo us with all that "business" garbage. Karma caught up to you and you got what you deserved. Uh, right?

 

[tearose50]

:thumbdown:





Sheesh, this thread was almost civil for awhile. Tsk tsk.

 

[Coldrake]

I would like for you to cite any trademark protection that mod makers have on their designs. Because you have to own something in order for it to be stolen.

I guess I might as well post this again also, since you obviously missed it the first time. Or maybe your dog ate that page. Or, as my guess would be, you choose to ignore the facts so you can continue your baseless arguments.

The mod makers only have to use their design to own that trademark. Since the mod makers do own their trademarks, they were stolen.

Trademarks

You only have to use it in order for them to become a trademark.

Trademark Basics
""Is federal registration of my trademark reqired?" The quick answer is "No." But it will enhance your rights."

"The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use."

"The law considers a trademark to be a form of property. Proprietary rights in relation to a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace"

"Two basic requirements must be met for a mark to be eligible for trademark protection: it must be in use in commerce and it must be distinctive.

The first requirement, that a mark be used in commerce, arises because trademark law is constitutionally grounded in the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce."
"The second requirement, that a mark be distinctive, addresses a trademark's capacity for identifying and distinguishing particular goods as emanating from one producer or source and not another."

Trademark Basics
Trademark | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
Lanham Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I feel your pain i do. It's just that some people seem to forget that not all of us are well off, or even getting by. Using myself as an example, I'm an army vet working in my feild of choice, and at 25 single with no kids, im barely scraping by. It takes me 3 months to save up for a $200 mod. If our economy continues as it is, i wont be able to afford my apartment any more, either. I prefer to buy American authentic stuff, but when they cant provide a product that doesnt break my wallet, i look for alternatives, right or wrong.

Maybe these links can shorten up that time a bit. ;-) There's no need to spend anywhere near $200 on a mod if you don't want to.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/604037-list-mods-100-less-not-clone.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tIWGIY6hZ697NyT5O0mtGJw/htmlview?pli=1

 

[Heldar]

I guess I might as well post this again also, since you obviously missed it the first time. Or maybe your dog ate that page. Or, as my guess would be, you choose to ignore the facts so you can continue your baseless arguments.

The mod makers only have to use their design to own that trademark. Since the mod makers do own their trademarks, they were stolen.






Maybe these links can shorten up that time a bit. ;-) There's no need to spend anywhere near $200 on a mod if you don't want to.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/604037-list-mods-100-less-not-clone.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tIWGIY6hZ697NyT5O0mtGJw/htmlview?pli=1

If you look back a few posts, i mentioned something similar. My entire point is that if theres a gap, someone somewhere will fill it. Whether its china with clones or cheap authentics, the market doesnt care. Morals and ethics are left at the door when the wallet language needs to be spoken.

 

[twall]

If you look back a few posts, i mentioned something similar. My entire point is that if theres a gap, someone somewhere will fill it.
Whether its china with clones or cheap authentics, the market doesnt care. Morals and ethics are left at the door when the wallet language needs to be spoken.

Indeed. My thoughts exactly in post #1411.

But in a truly free market, there is no right and wrong, just supply and demand.

 

[Davey59]

A true free market is basically a fast one way ticket to the lowest common denominator. Hope you have a parachute.

Most all the problems with illegal cloning and counterfeiting can be attributed to bad trade agreements negotiated from a weak position by weak foolish politicians. Shaking your fist at your neighbors and calling them amoral for saving money buying readily available products is non productive and misdirected and will do nothing to further any real solution.

Think I wrote something similar 100 pages ago, Carry on.

 

[twall]

When the country you're making the agreements with owns trillions of dollars' worth of your nation's debt, it's hard to make a hard stand and do what is right for your country.

I assume that's what you mean by "from a weak position by weak foolish politicians"?

 

[MistaKuraudo]

Honestly, what I don't understand is the arguments "It's just a tube" and "I can't pay $200 for an authentic".

If it's just a tube, why not buy a more affordable tube that IS authentic? Why go for the one with a logo engraved on it? There are several (albeit the majority are ugly as hell) cheap and authentic Chinese mods. If it's "just a tube" why not go for the Chinese authentic instead of the Chinese clone?

I see a lot of clone supporters that understand that taking someone's design and logo are bad, and they would gladly accept a non-logo version of the clone, but why not go for the Smoktech Magneto with an Igo-W instead? If a tube is a tube is a tube, it shouldn't really matter, right?

 

[dr g]

You know, im sure companies like Super-T are loving the pro-clone group. Not because the pro-clones reall give a rats a** about whether or not the logo is "stolen", but because they are providing a quality product at a sufficient rate to satisfy demand. Which is all the pro-clone guys want. That and a reasonable price. $80 for a tube made of titanium? May seem a little steep to some but definitely doable. Especially much more doable than a copper accented stainless steel tube for $250.

Read and learn what Super T actually thinks: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...93757-other-thoughts-clones-counterfeits.html

Sounds familiar? It's exactly what we're saying in this thread.

Oh and regarding the free market, theft isn't trade.

 

[NathanielFT]

I don't remember this kinda high and mighty attitude in days where dodgy cable boxes were going around and people were chipping playstations, or when it comes to things like downloading music or movies for free, or streaming them off sites that don't have permission, hacking software, etc etc.

For me personally its not that i'm trying to justify it as ethical or not stealing, its just that i don't really care, i have my reasons. I'm just a consumer making my choice. Original makers aren't losing out on my business as i would never have spent what they sell for if there were no clones anyway, i have my reasons.

There are many things in business that are legal in the US and morally wrong, do you boycott and whine about those too or does the law made by the people looked after by the system make it ok?

Either way i don't care, i make my choice and I'm happy with it. Not everyone will like my decision but, such is life


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[nukleusx]

...I'll be able to go to Prague twice a year to see my girlfriends...

Man, are they hiring at your company?

No, no no. You tried gouging the poor customer so you could afford month long excursions to the Caymens and that new Rolls-Royce. Stop trying to buffalo us with all that "business" garbage. Karma caught up to you and you got what you deserved. Uh, right?

Unless this is sarcasm, I really am starting to lose faith in humanity. So because someone goes to school (as GAVIN said he did) and paid a lot of money to do so, and then opens a business again paying a lot of money to do so; when the business does what it is supposed to (flourish and make money), the owner of said business can't do whatever he wants with his money?

Wow. (if not sarcasm in quote above)



Edit: Just thought of this as I was reading over my post- When my boss goes and takes a week or two long vacation to Hawaii, I do not gripe or swell with jealousy; I am happy for him because he works his .... off. When he takes money produced for the company by myself and other employees and re-invests it in the company, we all benefit. What he does with his company's profit is none of my business, either way, as long as I am compensated fairly for my work. That said, my boss is cool enough to the point he actually asks myself and others where/in what we think profit should be invested into weather it is equipment or whatever else.

Are people not allowed to own nice things or enjoy the benefits of hard work anymore?

I don't remember this kinda high and mighty attitude in days where dodgy cable boxes were going around and people were chipping playstations, or when it comes to things like downloading music or movies for free, or streaming them off sites that don't have permission, hacking software, etc etc...

You probably don't remember this much, because last I checked, when chipping your playstation was the cool thing to do, IIRC the interwebs were fairly infantile and forums were not an everyday popular thing that everyone and their mothers were on.

 

[NathanielFT]

You probably don't remember this much, because last I checked, when chipping your playstation was the cool thing to do, IIRC the interwebs were fairly infantile and forums were not an everyday popular thing that everyone and their mothers were on.

Ok thats the old what about the current examples i gave? I'm not asking for everyones view on this anyway just those who protest against clones for moral reasons so hard. Just out of curiosity



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[smokinGAVIN]

Pardon my ignorance and out of topic question but what does "chipping your playstation" mean?

 

[NathanielFT]

Pardon my ignorance and out of topic question but what does "chipping your playstation" mean?

Its installing a special chip inside your 1st or 2nd generation playstation which allows it to play games downloaded illegally


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[smokinGAVIN]

Okay. Thanks for the info.