Battery Info for the Chuck
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WS, short answer is that with the 18650 it's not so dramatic.. in the 16340 (CR123) size they're worlds of difference..yeah even in the 18650 they'll have a little more oomph but in that size battery even the regular ones have a max drain rate that's higher than whatever amperage draw whatever atty you're using...however the CR123 size the difference is the high drains have a max drain rate higher than the amperage draw of the atty where the regular ones usually don't.
(longer answer starts here)
here a little chart with the most demanding of amps:
3.7V w/1.5Ω 510 LR atty =2.47A
6V (6.4) w/joye 510 atty= 2.61A (2.78A)
7.4V (8) w/joye 510 atty =3.22A (3.48A)
(I used the 510 because that's the lowest resistance atty so the most as far as Amps go..I know you like cartos so the amp draw isn't quite as high)
now max drain rate on batteries:
*AW 18650 (2200mAh) = <4.4A
*Ultrafire 18650 (3000mAh)= <4.5A
*AW IMR 18650 (1600mAh)= <16A
Tenergy LiFePo 3V CR123 (880mAh)= <.55A
*AW LiFePo4 3V CR123 (500mAh) = <5A
Ultrafire 3V CR123 (880mAh)= <1.32A
Ultrafire 3.7V CR123 (880mAh)=< 1.32A
AW 16340 (750mAh)= <1.5A
*AW IMR 16340 (550mAh)= <4.4A
So comparing lists the 18650s even with the most demanding atty your amp draw isn't exceeding the max drain rate of your batteries...
Now the CR123 size alone in the little chuck or even stacked all of em except the high drain (or the 3V AW LiFePo4) you're exceeding the max drain of the battery...leading to overstressing the battery (shortened service life), overheating, tripping the PCB, and possible battery failure..
See explaination to WS above...those are actually better...and the LiMN is safe chemistry so they won't explode...and you're not going to over stress those..
Right, the 2200mah 18650s not the 2600 ones (2600 ones don't have a button top)....
Either charger will charge the 3.7V CR123...just would need spacers for the WF-139 charger...but the WF-139 doesn't charge the 3V LiFePo so you'd need the other charger anyway..(I'd get the 15mm spacers and charge your 3.7V CR123 and the 18650 on the WF-139 and just dedicate the other charger to the 3V LiFePo4 (since you need a pen or something to change the V selection switch)
3.7V CR123 batteries for the little chuck (I'd recomend the high drain LiMN ones though (see explaination above))
as for 6V with the AW LiFePo4 batteries....I can't find a max drain rate but the distributor says up to 10C without damage to the battery (significantly better than the tenergy though)..but you gotta watch so you don't overdrain them..
All in all very wise choices...
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Okay, so for the little chuck, this one, same one jambandphan ordered is good?
AW IMR16340 550 mAh IMR CR123 size LiMN Rechargeable Lithium Battery
What size battery spacer? is it a 15mm one?
Thanks for all the help.
As far as overdraining...that means don't use them till they are dead? Check them daily and recharge when they get low? The one I chose is the safest route to go, correct?
AW IMR16340 550 mAh IMR CR123 size LiMN Rechargeable Lithium Battery
What size battery spacer? is it a 15mm one?
Thanks for all the help.
As far as overdraining...that means don't use them till they are dead? Check them daily and recharge when they get low? The one I chose is the safest route to go, correct?
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is this a better one, though they are out of stock
Ultrafire 18650 Protected 3000mAh Rechargeable Lithium Battery
Ultrafire 18650 Protected 3000mAh Rechargeable Lithium Battery
The 16340 does not need a battery spacer. I use 16340's and 18350's in my Little Chuck. I prefer the UltraFire 18350 from Madvapes at 3.7 volts and 1200 Mah.
My UltraFire 16340's are 3.6 volts and 880 Mah.
It's the spacer for the charger.
The battery I posted, the same one as JBP's is NOT protected. If you go under batteries, then click on unprotected, this one shows up. So I answered my question. I am confused about the mah thing, since there are so many and drozd said mine was not good. My head hurts!
I did find some different ones but out of stock, for the 16340's. So I will get this for now and what till the ones with the bigger mah come back in stock. It was almost easy to figure out the most popular PV batts, they are the ones out of stock!
At least this will get me going and perhaps once I have them in hand and play with them, it will be easier to figure it all out. I surely underrated the battery business.
They had a tester, tested for 3.7 volts. Not sure if that is what I need. Suppose to be simple to use. If you cannot guess by now, I need simple. Quitting smoking has proven to be very complicated!!!
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mAh just gives you an idea of how long the battery will last between charges. If you find a protected battery in the right size with a mAh of 10,000 - grab it (but it doesn't exist.)
But... UltraFire apparently has a reputation for being overly "optimistic" in the mAh ratings they give their batteries (some of the battery stores even say that.) AW, from what people have said here, is fairly accurate.
I've been using the "AW IMR16340 3.7V 550mAh" from Lighthouse on my Screwdriver and I find they last about half a day each. There are others that would last longer but, for me, that's not a bad trade-off for having the safest chemistry.
I also have "UltraFire 18350 1200mAh 3.7V" protected batteries from Mad Vapes awaiting the arrival of my Little Chuck but they don't fit in a Screwdriver so I can't compare them.
(Actually, I find the bottom button on the Screwdriver so annoying that I've been using my stock batteries a lot and only taking the Screwdriver with me when I'm going out for the whole day and my stock ones won't be enough. Then I just bring one 16340 with me.)
But... UltraFire apparently has a reputation for being overly "optimistic" in the mAh ratings they give their batteries (some of the battery stores even say that.) AW, from what people have said here, is fairly accurate.
I've been using the "AW IMR16340 3.7V 550mAh" from Lighthouse on my Screwdriver and I find they last about half a day each. There are others that would last longer but, for me, that's not a bad trade-off for having the safest chemistry.
I also have "UltraFire 18350 1200mAh 3.7V" protected batteries from Mad Vapes awaiting the arrival of my Little Chuck but they don't fit in a Screwdriver so I can't compare them.
(Actually, I find the bottom button on the Screwdriver so annoying that I've been using my stock batteries a lot and only taking the Screwdriver with me when I'm going out for the whole day and my stock ones won't be enough. Then I just bring one 16340 with me.)
That's what I am thinking Poeia, safer. I'll get those too. Half a day beat the thirty minutes or less I am getting on my 510 batteries. I am looking forward to it, I need to get of my two morning analogs. I am fine the rest of the day but the morning ones are killing me. I get that instant fix. I literally get up, flip my puter on, let the dogs out, make coffee and light up, so I am hitting my cig within ten minutes of being out of bed and can't seem to get over it. Pathetic really. After that I am good for the rest of the day, hoping chuck will fix it all.
I have the "UltraFire 18350 1200mAh 3.7V" stacked in my big chuck. I work 13 hour days and always take an extra set, but have never needed to use them even vaping heavy with HV 5.2 ohms. When I go to bed, I take out the set and place them in the charger and put the one's carried all day in my chuck for the next day. No problems at all.
There's something I've been wondering. LiMn batteries are safer chemistry, but essentially unprotected. That's a fair trade-off for me under ordinary circumstances. However, there are a few extraordinary circumstances we sometimes face with PVs that seem to come up rather frequently in scary battery threads, like using adapters. With circumstances such as using adapters which have been known to cause shorts, I was thinking that it would be best to use protected batteries at those times because the protection should kick in if it shorts, and I have no idea what the safe chemistry batts would do under those circumstances.
Are these valid thoughts, or am I getting paranoid again?
Are these valid thoughts, or am I getting paranoid again?
ok here's the deal on Safe chemistry, LiFePo, and LiIon... and the lack of protection on the LiMN..
ok lets look at batteries we have to look at the Max drain rate of them..this is how much stress the battery can be put under before it's duty cycle is affected (how many times it can be drained and charged before it's no good) as well as how quickly you can drain them before they heat up and possibly overheat and cause them to rupture and vent..
you can figure out the max drain rate of the battery by taking it's mAh rating and multiplying it by the battery's C rating and dividing that by 1000...
you can also figure out the amperage draw (how much you're trying to drain from the battery) by taking the voltage and dividing by the resistance of the atomizer...if the amp draw exceeds the battery's max drain rate..you're over stressing the batteries..
now in a good protected cell (and there are differences in the quality of protection between manufacturers) exceeding the max drain on the battery by enough will cause the overdischarge protection to trip (if you look around the forum enough you see a bunch of posts about stacked 123s not running with a 510 atty...this is why...overstressing the batteries)
so the thing about the LiMN batteries is their C rating ..the AW IMR CR123 may only be 550mAh but they have an 8C rating... so their max drain rate is <4.4A.... no atty you're going to run is going to exceed that drain rate..in the result of a short the battery is capable of putting out so much heat and discharging so quickly that what would likely happen is that it would vent a little gas and probably melt the spring causing it to break the circut..at max drain it would totally be drained in about 6 min..and that's what makes it safer chemistry..putting a PCB on these or LiFePo batteries is tottally un nessicary and is actually more draining to the battery
the AW 3V LiFePo4 is a 10C rating so also safe chemistry and nothing you're going to run on it in any configuration is going to exceed it's max drain rating either...but if you over discharge them below 2V too often their ability to take and hold a charge is comprimised...they won't pop either..just if you over drain them they become unuseable and have to be replaced..
compared to say the Tenergy LiFePo that have a max drain rate of <.55A... just about every atty in every configuration is going to exceed that...they're going to get hot and while they might not pop the duty cycle (how many times you can charge and use them) is going to take a huge hit..
the 18650 size batteries..the mAh rating is sufficent to cover the max discharge rate in just about any brand (and the C rating vary by brand (ultrafire is typically 1.5C, AW is 2C, and unless it's stated generic no labels are 1C, and the high drain AW are 10C)) ...the closer the Amp draw is to the max drain rate of the battery the more stress you put on the battery though..
Now on protection....not all protection is created equal some batteries can claim protection only by simply venting them in case of over heat where others have over heat, over pressure, over discharge, ...heres a good link that discusses and has pictures of that: The anatomy of a Protected Battery - CandlePowerForums
So, if I were buying batteries for a big chuck and a little chuck with the safest and optimal life for any atty you can run on them this is what I would buy:
Little chuck:
AW IMR16340 550 mAh IMR CR123 size LiMN Rechargeable Lithium Battery
Big chuck:
3.7V - any 18650 (i'm partial to AW myself)(make sure it has a button top..so as far as the AW batteries go thats the 2200mAh one not the 2600mAh one) or the high drain AW ones (high drain in this size is almost overkill)
6V - AW LiFePo4 (3v) AW LiFePO4 3 Volt Lithium Rechargeable Battery
7.4V again the AW high drain CR123 like for the little chuck..
I used lighthound because well I want my batteries now...if I were going to be ordering them and could deal with waiting for them I would order them straingt from the AW dealer via paypal (he ships from hong kong so it takes about 14 days)
but it's about $1 cheaper per cell and he has the AW LiFePo4 in a combo pack with the charger
and the WF-139 charger comes with the 15mm spacers for charging CR123 cells on it through him..
Here's that info:
AW's LiIon Batteries Sales Thread *Part 11* - CPFMarketPlace
ok lets look at batteries we have to look at the Max drain rate of them..this is how much stress the battery can be put under before it's duty cycle is affected (how many times it can be drained and charged before it's no good) as well as how quickly you can drain them before they heat up and possibly overheat and cause them to rupture and vent..
you can figure out the max drain rate of the battery by taking it's mAh rating and multiplying it by the battery's C rating and dividing that by 1000...
you can also figure out the amperage draw (how much you're trying to drain from the battery) by taking the voltage and dividing by the resistance of the atomizer...if the amp draw exceeds the battery's max drain rate..you're over stressing the batteries..
now in a good protected cell (and there are differences in the quality of protection between manufacturers) exceeding the max drain on the battery by enough will cause the overdischarge protection to trip (if you look around the forum enough you see a bunch of posts about stacked 123s not running with a 510 atty...this is why...overstressing the batteries)
so the thing about the LiMN batteries is their C rating ..the AW IMR CR123 may only be 550mAh but they have an 8C rating... so their max drain rate is <4.4A.... no atty you're going to run is going to exceed that drain rate..in the result of a short the battery is capable of putting out so much heat and discharging so quickly that what would likely happen is that it would vent a little gas and probably melt the spring causing it to break the circut..at max drain it would totally be drained in about 6 min..and that's what makes it safer chemistry..putting a PCB on these or LiFePo batteries is tottally un nessicary and is actually more draining to the battery
the AW 3V LiFePo4 is a 10C rating so also safe chemistry and nothing you're going to run on it in any configuration is going to exceed it's max drain rating either...but if you over discharge them below 2V too often their ability to take and hold a charge is comprimised...they won't pop either..just if you over drain them they become unuseable and have to be replaced..
compared to say the Tenergy LiFePo that have a max drain rate of <.55A... just about every atty in every configuration is going to exceed that...they're going to get hot and while they might not pop the duty cycle (how many times you can charge and use them) is going to take a huge hit..
the 18650 size batteries..the mAh rating is sufficent to cover the max discharge rate in just about any brand (and the C rating vary by brand (ultrafire is typically 1.5C, AW is 2C, and unless it's stated generic no labels are 1C, and the high drain AW are 10C)) ...the closer the Amp draw is to the max drain rate of the battery the more stress you put on the battery though..
Now on protection....not all protection is created equal some batteries can claim protection only by simply venting them in case of over heat where others have over heat, over pressure, over discharge, ...heres a good link that discusses and has pictures of that: The anatomy of a Protected Battery - CandlePowerForums
So, if I were buying batteries for a big chuck and a little chuck with the safest and optimal life for any atty you can run on them this is what I would buy:
Little chuck:
AW IMR16340 550 mAh IMR CR123 size LiMN Rechargeable Lithium Battery
Big chuck:
3.7V - any 18650 (i'm partial to AW myself)(make sure it has a button top..so as far as the AW batteries go thats the 2200mAh one not the 2600mAh one) or the high drain AW ones (high drain in this size is almost overkill)
6V - AW LiFePo4 (3v) AW LiFePO4 3 Volt Lithium Rechargeable Battery
7.4V again the AW high drain CR123 like for the little chuck..
I used lighthound because well I want my batteries now...if I were going to be ordering them and could deal with waiting for them I would order them straingt from the AW dealer via paypal (he ships from hong kong so it takes about 14 days)
but it's about $1 cheaper per cell and he has the AW LiFePo4 in a combo pack with the charger
and the WF-139 charger comes with the 15mm spacers for charging CR123 cells on it through him..
Here's that info:
AW's LiIon Batteries Sales Thread *Part 11* - CPFMarketPlace
yeah the 15mm spacers...2 of them since it's a 2 channel charger and you're going to charge 2 batteries at once..
and yes..that high drain battery is the only one I'd use...
Safest...yeah...but I'm combining safe and most efficient/performing/over engineered..
while there are plenty of safe options there are significantly fewer that actually meet the demands of what we're putting them through and throwing at them...those are the ones I've focused on..
While these work I'm gonna use you as a prime example..please there's no offense intended in it...
these work for you..but lets examine them..
the 18350 has a max drain rate of 1.8A (1200 (mAh rating) * 1.5 (c rating) / 1000)
the 16340 has a max drain rating of 1.32A
now absolute worst case senario we're going to throw at that is a 1.5Ω 510 atty at full battery charge so thats a 2.8A amp draw..
we're over the max drain rate of the batteries...stressing them, reducing their useable duty cycle life, running the risk of tripping their protection circuit (if they have one) (remember all battery protection is not created equal)
Do they work?...yeah
Are they safe?....sure, reasonably so
Are they the safest and most efficiently performing?...not so much
True..but like I just mentioned the mAh rating can also be used to find out what the max drain rate of the battery is when we know what their c rating is as well...which is way useful in figuring if we're overstressing the battery and by how much depending on what atty configuration we're using...
by that if we really stretched our math we could figure out exactly how long our batteries would last if they were run continuous...and stretch it even further in dividing that into how many x amount of X second button presses we could get out of them...
take for example that LiMN battery:
i know it's capable of 550mA in an hour but because it has an 8C rating I could also get
1100mA for 30 min, 1650mA for 20 min, 2200mA for 15 min, 2750mA for 12 min, 3300mA for 10min...all the way out to 4400mA for 6min...(without damage to the battery)
now let's say I'm using a 1.5Ω atty ..thats between 2800mA (at full charge) and 2470mA (at 3.7V)
so if we held the button down continuous it'd last for somewhere around 12min.... if we were machines and said we always take 3 second button presses that's about 240 button presses...now it comes down to how offten you press the button and how quickly you go through those roughly 240 presses...
So the mAh rating can be really, really useful...just that we usually don't look at the all around big picture of how it all relates to each other...because well we're not coming at it as mathmaticians we're coming at it as ex smokers who just want our fix...lol
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Yes! I just submitted my battery order. Whodathunk that would be more complicated than figuring out graphics and ordering a chuck?
Actually, all of it would have been complicated without the help I received from this place, so thank you all for putting up with me. Big thanks to Drozd too, I probably drove you nuts.
I feel like I am starting to get some mild surface saturation in the brain with this whole batty/atty business!
Actually, all of it would have been complicated without the help I received from this place, so thank you all for putting up with me. Big thanks to Drozd too, I probably drove you nuts.
I feel like I am starting to get some mild surface saturation in the brain with this whole batty/atty business!
Thanks, Drozd! A lot of these battery discussions have been confusing the hell out of me, but I understood that explanation.
Thanks, Drozd! A lot of these battery discussions have been confusing the hell out of me, but I understood that explanation.
Lol...glad it helped someone...I always feel bad on these because I always feel like I'm rambling and spouting numbers that make no sense at all...but it's kinda nessicary because it's all kinda interconnected and you can see how it all relates
It's usually the partial explanations that don't show the connections that start reading like Charlie Brown's teacher to me.
So, I'm grateful.BTW, your explanation on another supplier's forum concerning how the new LR atties work convinced me to try a couple. Got them this morning, popped one on my Little Chuck, and immediately understood why everyone considers 8-10W the "sweet spot."
I may officially become your ECF stalker.
Woohoo, batteries are on the way. Got some cartomizers to try too. Now just waiting for that one last piece of the chuck puzzle!
It's usually the partial explanations that don't show the connections that start reading like Charlie Brown's teacher to me.
BTW, your explanation on another supplier's forum concerning how the new LR atties work convinced me to try a couple. Got them this morning, popped one on my Little Chuck, and immediately understood why everyone considers 8-10W the "sweet spot."
and a link to this explanation can be found where ... *she wonders*
It's usually the partial explanations that don't show the connections that start reading like Charlie Brown's teacher to me.
BTW, your explanation on another supplier's forum concerning how the new LR atties work convinced me to try a couple. Got them this morning, popped one on my Little Chuck, and immediately understood why everyone considers 8-10W the "sweet spot."
well really glad it didn't come across like charlie brown's teacher..
And I'm glad you're digging the LR atties...all the benefits of running HV but with a 3.7V battery...no stacking required..
Lol...I'd link it myself if I knew exactly which post was being refered to...and a link to this explanation can be found where ... *she wonders*
long story short..the LR 510 atties produce the same amount of heat at 3.7V as a regular atty with stacked batteries...actually dead in the middle of that "sweet spot" range..
in order of heat (which is watts...and as it goes up you get warmer vapor, more vapor, and depending on flavors increased flavor)
standard joye 510....4.18W
eGo with LR atty.....6.41W
3.7V battery with 510...5.95W
3.7V battery with LR atty...9.13W
5V with joye 510......10.87W
6V with joye 510 ....15.65W
6V with 4.5Ω atty.....8W
7.4V with joye 510 atty...23.81W
7.4V with 5.2Ω atty....10.53W
Cartos have easier but fewer variables
3.7V...4.56W
5V....8.33W
6V...12W
7.4V...18.25W
Cartos are pretty good at 12W...but usually anything more than 10W is starting to taste burnt..
so the LR atties..you can get better performance out of a 3.7V battery than at 6V with a HV atty..
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