If you mean personal responsibility for taking up something that I know is addictive? I never said (and I challenge you to quote me where I have) that holding BT responsibility for their criminal behavior absolves me of the consequences of my actions. I deal with both the addict and the dealer in my job and both have to answer for the laws they broke. I have a little more compassion for one than the other. I guess in your eyes they're the same.
Yep, this is what I meant. I am desiring to explore this criminal behavior you bring up, and explore if that criminal behavior extends to the user who willingly uses the product known to cause harm, and/or if to some degree the user is absolved of responsibility? I realize we are talking about a history spanning decades. But I'm thinking there is a period of time, perhaps current day, whereby a user would know / have some understanding of claims that amount to "tobacco kills" and if aware of that, and choosing to use it anyway, would be akin to a person taking poison with intent to commit suicide. Which is a crime / criminal behavior. Yet, if person is later found to be harmed and comes back and holds sole, or predominant responsibility for the 'dealer,' then that strikes me as disingenuous.
I also think it could just as well apply to eCigs as we are hearing two different tales about the safety of eCigs currently. One from those who are pro eCigs and one from those who are anti-eCigs. Here on vaping forum, I observe the predominant attitude is to believe the pro eCig 'evidence' and science that supports the take that allows users to rest assured that what they are using is relatively harmless. Yet, if a report were to come down the pike and suggest something we don't know today, but that was known by say an eCig manufacturer or researcher, I wonder if it is entirely fair to absolve today's eCig user when there were voices around (the antis) who were saying all along, don't use this stuff, don't you know nicotine is a poison? Or because we don't know, for sure, the long term implications of vaping eliquid, don't use this stuff. When that knowledge is available (presumably decades from now) then that would be the time to start using this, and claiming that it is 'relatively safe.'
But for a human, of pretty much any age over 12, at any point in civilized humanity, to believe that smoking of any sort would not be relatively harmful is something I find simply unbelievable, regardless of how things were marketed umpteen years ago.
Bottom line, you / everyone smokes because at some level they find it enjoyable, and compelling because it was engineered to be enjoyed as often as humanly possible, or by choice of the user; as not all users are subject to uncontrollable urge to light up and heavily use tobacco cigarettes.
Studies have shown that nicotine rates far above alcohol when using first use to dependence as a measure.
Which would work against vaping/vapers as study you cited doesn't make note of "smoking" when it makes note of nicotine dependence. Is this what you wish to enter into the discussion, for this would pertain to what I was getting across above. That persons vaping nicotine could essentially (attempt to) absolve themselves of irresponsibility for vaping products (that contain nicotine) when in fact messages are all around us (vapers) saying "don't do this, we don't know what the long term effects are." And I'm suggesting vapers that do, but later are found 'harmed' are as much engaging in 'criminal behavior' as manufacturers. Cause I'm yet to find a vaper who pays attention to intricacies of 'politics of vaping' and who would claim something along lines of "eCigs are 100% safe for use by humans." Whereas, antis are sendings strong message that suggests it is harmful to individuals who currently vape, and harmful to society, to even have these available now. Wait (decades) until the long term results are in, and then make your decision. Doing so now, is between unwise, and as they are unregulated, essentially illegal.
But the good news is if BT does get into eCig industry and monopolize, and if harm is found to be significant 30 years from now, some vapers will be able to have their boogeyman that absolves themselves of responsibility. Wasn't me that did this to myself, it was the criminal dealer who wasn't exactly forthcoming with the harm that I had no way of knowing about until 30 years, too late.
You quit cold turkey, what? Alcohol, Cigarettes? No treatment, 12-Step group? And if you're capable of doing that, then, good lord, what are you doing here messing with vaping?
Quit cold turkey on "D - all of the above." With a lotta help from Higher Power, and no need for 12 steps. That lasted 8.5 years. Then took up smoking again, because I wanted to. Hated the first smoke. Hated the second one, that I wanted to have. By the 12th one, that I wanted to have, I liked the taste again. I liked the smoking experience again. I would come to loathe the side effects again, that I was clearly aware of from a) previous experience, b) friends and family and c) media hype, but felt, for awhile that pros outweighed cons. Then I quit cold turkey again, for about 2 years. That time wasn't as easy as first time, but also not impossible. Didn't relapse during 2 years. And would note that first time and second time, after getting over hurdle of 'first 3 days' I would give myself full permission to smoke. Just how I feel things work out better when it comes to abstaining. Anyway, started up again after 2nd quit attempt and went about 1.5 years of smoking and then quit again for at least a year (cold turkey). Then started again, and this time around is when I found eCigs.
Now am at point where I do enjoy being moderate smoker. No longer crave smoking, but do occasionally enjoy the taste. I prefer vaping. Never had much experience growing up of 'moderate smoking.' And now I'm living that. I like it. I reckon the horrible things that we tell ourselves about smoking (causing death) ain't exactly accurate for moderate smoking, though I'm guessing I could find some anti-smoking funded study that would beg to differ. I do know that my experience health wise is vastly different being moderate smoker than it was being heavy user. I also know that last time I was non user (for 1.5 years) that I would get migraines galore, but when I started smoking again, that went way down. So, perhaps I'm 'damaged goods' and have established a need for nicotine to maintain a sense of stability, or perhaps G has something else in store for me. But I can attest to idea that quitting smoking isn't exactly the end all and be all to enjoying a healthy life here on planet earth. It certainly has pros, but it also has cons that not too many people really ever want to talk about. Instead, much easier to beat up on BT and blame them for all that went wrong with nicotine use / addiction.
See the study quoted above. I also know "Social Smokers" who bum and bum and bum until people won't bum them anymore then they buy a pack and then the next pack, and then...
In last 3 months, I'm a PAM smoker, spending $7 a month on smoking. How many smokers you met that did that?
Since vaping, I've never been a PAD smoker. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think I could do a pack in day now even if I wanted to UNLESS I stopped vaping, willingly AND wanted to have a good 5 to 12 smokes in say 2 days (without vaping at all) which would likely lead to dependence.
A dependence that if I'm thinking a little less than reasonably, I could pin all on BT and call it a day. How dare they get me hooked on their product. My hands are clean, cept for some nicotine stains, and their's are so bloody
... is essentially what I hear you and others in this thread saying.
I see it as around 80/20 proposition. 80% me and my choice, 20% them and their engineering. Admittedly, that might have to do with era one grows up in, as I wasn't quite smoking in era where you could do it everywhere and when it was advertised by doctors on TV. But as I was smoking in the 80's, I do recall being able to smoke indoors and people not keeling over and dying from secondhand smoke.
can you repeat that^
