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Big tobacco take on e-cigarette's health issue

Discussion in 'Medical Research' started by dalr, Oct 27, 2013.

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  1. dalr

    dalr Full Member

    Oct 7, 2013
    Switzerland
    A good debate isn't based on "bringing in all sides of the subject" only, but also on bringing explanations and rationality to the discussion. The best way to conduct this debate would be to prove that "BT-provided misleading information" are, in fact, wrong. And not using the non sequitur of "it is wrong because it comes from BT".

    That aside, I agree with you that BT is in the e-cig business only for itself and will do whatever itcan to crush independent vaping products. And this is why, in my opinion, leveling the field by providing provable and reproducible data to the discussion, is the only way to win this "battle".

    My :2c: too :)
     
  2. flowerpots

    flowerpots Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 21, 2013
    my desk
    Are you speaking as a citizen of Switzerland? Or are you talking American BT? And if you mean American BT, then what is your provable, reproducible data - other than what your friend advised you?

    I am genuinely interested in what facts you can bring as well. Some have already been produced on this thread in links.
     
  3. patkin

    patkin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2012
    Arizona USA
    I'm interested in this and a bit confused by it. Doesn't every drag on a smoke produce a "burnt" nic molecule? Thus far, I've seen nothing that indicates nicotine is carcinogenic while other substances burned in a smoke definitely are. Yet, your friend recommends inhaling those to get your nic? These molecules in smoke are certainly taken deep into the lungs... no doubt as deeply as the perported dangerous ones in overly burned nic vapor and, again, the advice is to smoke? It seems a biased choice to me and bias has no place in science. Its really quite confusing.
     
  4. twgbonehead

    twgbonehead Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 28, 2011
    MA, USA
    Well, as first principles, let's use a little reason here.

    A cigarette burns at approx 700 degrees C. according to:
    http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm

    (And if you don't trust that site, the gov't estimates it can be as high as 900C:

    Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf


    Boiling point of Glycerine is 290C, PG is 188.2C

    So what the OP's friend is saying is that long after all the PG and VG has boiled away, the coil gets much much hotter, and there is still enough nicotine left over on the coil that could burn and cause problems, and that it is more dangerous than a cigarette (where virtually ALL the nicotine is burned at 700C)?

    Sorry, that's just not credible to me.
     
  5. tearose50

    tearose50 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2011
    Left coast
    What is alarming about a nicotine molecule being stuck in the throat? :blink: Does anyone have a clue?

    I believe there are studies on potentially harmful products produced with anything charred -- yup, those grill marks on your steak/fish and even a piece of toast. Health food industry and raw foods advocates can get pretty annoyed about charred foods. Perhaps charred e-liquid could be in the same category, but calling it worse than burned tobacco leaves (hmm -- is there no-nic de-caf tobacco now?) is beyond my comprehension.

    Warning: Do not grill eggplant as it may be harmful to your health. Vegetable contains nicotine. BT has deemed charred nicotine to be harmful to your health.

    I have a feeling we will be seeing lots of studies in the coming months with quite varied findings, and often interpreted to prove a pre-set view. Just like picking out gear, we have to be savy and make our own decisions. Every vegan can tell you how bad animal products are for the human body, which is clearly omnivore in structure and requires supplements that only occur in animal proteins.
     
  6. dalr

    dalr Full Member

    Oct 7, 2013
    Switzerland
    Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

    If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

    You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?
     
  7. xtwosm0kesx

    xtwosm0kesx Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    THIS THIS THIS......

    How can something containing nicotine that is BURNED at nearly 1292 deg F(when taking a drag) be better than something containing nicotine that is VAPORIZED at 554 deg F(at most)?

    Seriously ask your friend that, i'm interested in the response/logic.
     
  8. kimran73

    kimran73 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    dalr-I think there is probably some degree of credibility to your friends research. It's definitely interesting and I like the different technique for testing. That said, since he is with BT, he may be a little one-sided. We all want to believe in the company we work for and tend to be loyal until completely disenfranchised by them. The main problem is that there is no long term study on vaping since it hasn't been around long enough for this. I truly believe that vaping manufacturers, especially in US-and probably Switzerland too-have a high degree of standards and truly want the best for their consumers. Your friend was honestly trying to look out for you but it boils down to how you feel. I'm feeling much better off analogs so I'll keep it up. After 20 more years or so ther may be more credible studies at the long-term effects. For now all we can do is continue to educate ourselves, pros and cons, and be proactive in our own lifestyles. Nobody is ever going to completely agree on this subject. I believe you are doing the right thing by keeping an open mind to both sides of studies. Make it a personal decision though on what feels right to you. Remember, it took centuries to realize the truth behind cigarettes. Everything in this world has some kind of harmful effect one way or another.
     
  9. patkin

    patkin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2012
    Arizona USA
    I posted that I was quite confused by what your friend said and why. I am also just as confused by your apparent defensiveness. It seems to me that the contributors to this thread have provided some logical questions and/or answers to your dilemma on the feasibility of your friend's findings or advise. Actually, the questions and/or answers contributed are things that you, yourself, should be asking and may already be but remain silent about them. Right? Just as you have done and others here are doing... nothing wrong with questioning any information especially when it has the potential of impacting one's health whether that comes from you or these contributors. And since these are "new" here-to-fore unpublished findings by an unnamed company that can't even be researched, there can be no absolutely conclusive/scientific suggestions in disagreement with them that anyone can contribute. Thus, only questions and potential problem areas pertaining to the findings can be offered. And that has been done. In all, it seems to me that these thread contributors deserve the same "thank you" from you that you expect from them. Just sayin.
     
  10. xtwosm0kesx

    xtwosm0kesx Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    After thinking about this some more, has anyone realized that the information OP received from his friend directly tows the BT line regarding the design of their e-cigs.

    BT loves to state things along the lines of "All current e-cigs are inferior due to inconsistent delivery of nicotine, but OUR (BT) 'micro-processor controlled' (whatever that means) e-cigs eliminate this problem using some unnamed technology."

    *EDIT* Straight from RJ Reynolds Vapor (rjrvapor):

    VUSE is the world's most advanced E-Cigarette and the first E-Cigarette designed
    with Smart Technology. The VUSE Digital Vapor Cigarette contains a VaporDelivery
    Processor that uses algorithms in the same way a computer does, therefore we refer
    to it as "digital." VUSE is also the only E-Cigarette designed with a
    SmartMemory chip inside the cartridge. The VaporDelivery Processor working with
    the SmartMemory monitors and adjusts the power and heat delivered to the Cartridge
    up to 2,000 times a second, ensuring consistently satisfying puffs
    - A Perfect Puff,
    First Time, Every Time.
     
  11. patkin

    patkin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2012
    Arizona USA
    ................:blink:
     
  12. flowerpots

    flowerpots Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 21, 2013
    my desk
    Hey wait, I meant no offense. I was trying to clarify before we got too far into the debate....1) if we are talking American BT because if not, that changes the whole context of the conversation 2) if you had any facts of which I or others reading may not be privy. I'm not calling you a troll. I'm actually on your side to the extent that I think being able to back up an argument that is founded in data and hard science is paramount to winning the battle. I think you actually made a very important post for 3 reasons: 1) it gives us insight into the thought process of those at BT 2) it gives us points to ponder on our own searches as to the legitimacy of the safety of vaping 3) you make us think and that's always good in my book.

    P.S. I think many share your concern and caution with vaping, so you are neither alone in that concern, nor a troll for being concerned. There are people with allergies, people seeking the healthiest way to vape after leaving the smoking lifestyle behind. I will post some links here that may give you more info on the subject...it may take a few days.

    http://casaa.org/FAQS_ecig.html

    http://casaa.org/Clinical_Research.html

    http://tobaccoharmreduction.org/faq/nicotine.htm

    http://casaa.org/Smokefree_Health_Effects.html

    http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f90349264250e603/ms08.pdf

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/455394-glycerine-vapor-acrolein-issues.html#post10381885

    http://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/portal/index_en.htm#tab_eu_activities

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/canadianmetalhead/1648-pharmacokinetics-propylene-glycol-glycerin-usp-nicotine.html

    http://www.healthnz.co.nz/cancerrisk.htm

    Of particular interest in the above link is this quote:

    "In e-cigarettes, the nicotine inhaled per puff is much less than (about one tenth) in a cigarette puff, and risk of cancer in mice from nicotine in their diet is of great theoretical interest for researchers, but no proven effect for humans."

    http://truthaboutecigs.com/scares_2.php
     
  13. Racehorse

    Racehorse ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 12, 2012
    USA midwest
    Calling somebody a troll does tend to bring that out, don't you think? :)

    As soon as that happened, the rest of the topic wasn't going to go too well. It's a conversation stopper.

    May as well close this one up.
     
  14. wv2win

    wv2win ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 10, 2009
    GA by way of WV
    Logic tells me that any inconsistencies between one atomizer and another atomizer and how it heats eliquid, would not be so significantly different that it would cause one atomizer to create dangerous nicotine molecules and one that would not. I'm not a researcher but that just does not pass the "BS" test.

    And then there is the issue of "what level of risk". As we know all too well from the infamous FDA test of 18 eliquid cartridges, you can state that there is a "risk" and forget to tell everyone that the risk is .01% and not significant. Since the symptoms of nicotine overdose are well recognized, if this "inconsistency" was an issue, after this many years of millions of people vaping, we would have known about it by now.

    I'm not questioning the OP, but his friend has not passed the "BS" test.
     
  15. patkin

    patkin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2012
    Arizona USA
    So where was that done? I scanned the thread again and don't find it. Did you mean for it to sound like I did? I guess its a matter of interpretation. To each their own.
     
  16. JulesXsmokr

    JulesXsmokr Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Please have your friend give you his research papers, and share it with us, so we can all verify this "talk"..
    If he is your friend and wants to save you health problems, it should not be a problem since he and his fellow researchers have already done this scientific study.
    Big Tobacco means Big Trouble for the E-Cig Industry, they want to bribe and try to prove that their way, and only their products work as intended.
     
  17. Uma

    Uma Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 4, 2010
    Calif
    Maybe he should try a regulated battery like a Provari.
     
  18. LDS714

    LDS714 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 27, 2013
    Nashville, TN, USA
    There is a difference between research of "Find out about X" and research of "Find things about X that make it compare in a specified manner with Y."

    I've seen both types...

    The question is which is being reported by your friend?
     
  19. onjre

    onjre Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 8, 2013
    Knoxville, TN, USA
    It seems there can be no discussion here. The friend says he knows something no one else can verify so even if good information to the contrary is shown it is assumed that it was done with inferior equipment and therefore can be thrown out. We also cannot discuss directly with the person making the claim so additional clarification on how tests were performed and what is harmful about particle size is unavailable. What is there to debate?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
     
  20. Crimbshaw188

    Crimbshaw188 Full Member

    Feb 2, 2014
    Texas
    Not sure if this was mentioned earlier or not but your friend had mentioned that it was burning at too high of a temp and producing different chemicals through oxidation. I am curious as to what temperature he is saying this would happen, being that tobacco I believe burns at around 300 degrees (correct me if im wrong).
     
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