Big tobacco take on e-cigarette's health issue

[dalr]

Agree, disagree - good debates and discussions will bring in all sides of the subject.

Yes, BT is in the e-cig business, but only for itself. It's no doubt in my mind that they will still lobby and push to monopolize the market with their products with biased testing to ban vaping as we know it now. It will either come in the form of providing misleading information such as what the OP stated, that the inconsistencies in current deliver devices are of concern, or that the batteries/mods we use are questionable in safety, or some other spin. But, they will try to oust what options we have, thereby giving consumers only their products to purchase

A good debate isn't based on "bringing in all sides of the subject" only, but also on bringing explanations and rationality to the discussion. The best way to conduct this debate would be to prove that "BT-provided misleading information" are, in fact, wrong. And not using the non sequitur of "it is wrong because it comes from BT".

That aside, I agree with you that BT is in the e-cig business only for itself and will do whatever itcan to crush independent vaping products. And this is why, in my opinion, leveling the field by providing provable and reproducible data to the discussion, is the only way to win this "battle".

My too

 

[flowerpots]

A good debate isn't based on "bringing in all sides of the subject" only, but also on bringing explanations and rationality to the discussion. The best way to conduct this debate would be to prove that "BT-provided misleading information" are, in fact, wrong. And not using the non sequitur of "it is wrong because it comes from BT".

That aside, I agree with you that BT is in the e-cig business only for itself and will do whatever itcan to crush independent vaping products. And this is why, in my opinion, leveling the field by providing provable and reproducible data to the discussion, is the only way to win this "battle".

My too

Are you speaking as a citizen of Switzerland? Or are you talking American BT? And if you mean American BT, then what is your provable, reproducible data - other than what your friend advised you?

I am genuinely interested in what facts you can bring as well. Some have already been produced on this thread in links.

 

[patkin]

I'm interested in this and a bit confused by it. Doesn't every drag on a smoke produce a "burnt" nic molecule? Thus far, I've seen nothing that indicates nicotine is carcinogenic while other substances burned in a smoke definitely are. Yet, your friend recommends inhaling those to get your nic? These molecules in smoke are certainly taken deep into the lungs... no doubt as deeply as the perported dangerous ones in overly burned nic vapor and, again, the advice is to smoke? It seems a biased choice to me and bias has no place in science. Its really quite confusing.

 

[twgbonehead]

Well, as first principles, let's use a little reason here.

A cigarette burns at approx 700 degrees C. according to:
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm

(And if you don't trust that site, the gov't estimates it can be as high as 900C:

Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf


Boiling point of Glycerine is 290C, PG is 188.2C

So what the OP's friend is saying is that long after all the PG and VG has boiled away, the coil gets much much hotter, and there is still enough nicotine left over on the coil that could burn and cause problems, and that it is more dangerous than a cigarette (where virtually ALL the nicotine is burned at 700C)?

Sorry, that's just not credible to me.

 

[tearose50]

What is alarming about a nicotine molecule being stuck in the throat? Does anyone have a clue?

I believe there are studies on potentially harmful products produced with anything charred -- yup, those grill marks on your steak/fish and even a piece of toast. Health food industry and raw foods advocates can get pretty annoyed about charred foods. Perhaps charred e-liquid could be in the same category, but calling it worse than burned tobacco leaves (hmm -- is there no-nic de-caf tobacco now?) is beyond my comprehension.

Warning: Do not grill eggplant as it may be harmful to your health. Vegetable contains nicotine. BT has deemed charred nicotine to be harmful to your health.

I have a feeling we will be seeing lots of studies in the coming months with quite varied findings, and often interpreted to prove a pre-set view. Just like picking out gear, we have to be savy and make our own decisions. Every vegan can tell you how bad animal products are for the human body, which is clearly omnivore in structure and requires supplements that only occur in animal proteins.

 

[dalr]

Are you speaking as a citizen of Switzerland? Or are you talking American BT? And if you mean American BT, then what is your provable, reproducible data - other than what your friend advised you?

I am genuinely interested in what facts you can bring as well. Some have already been produced on this thread in links.

Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?

 

[xtwosm0kesx]

Well, as first principles, let's use a little reason here.

A cigarette burns at approx 700 degrees C. according to:
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm

(And if you don't trust that site, the gov't estimates it can be as high as 900C:

Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf


Boiling point of Glycerine is 290C, PG is 188.2C

So what the OP's friend is saying is that long after all the PG and VG has boiled away, the coil gets much much hotter, and there is still enough nicotine left over on the coil that could burn and cause problems, and that it is more dangerous than a cigarette (where virtually ALL the nicotine is burned at 700C)?

Sorry, that's just not credible to me.

THIS THIS THIS......

How can something containing nicotine that is BURNED at nearly 1292 deg F(when taking a drag) be better than something containing nicotine that is VAPORIZED at 554 deg F(at most)?

Seriously ask your friend that, i'm interested in the response/logic.

 

[kimran73]

dalr-I think there is probably some degree of credibility to your friends research. It's definitely interesting and I like the different technique for testing. That said, since he is with BT, he may be a little one-sided. We all want to believe in the company we work for and tend to be loyal until completely disenfranchised by them. The main problem is that there is no long term study on vaping since it hasn't been around long enough for this. I truly believe that vaping manufacturers, especially in US-and probably Switzerland too-have a high degree of standards and truly want the best for their consumers. Your friend was honestly trying to look out for you but it boils down to how you feel. I'm feeling much better off analogs so I'll keep it up. After 20 more years or so ther may be more credible studies at the long-term effects. For now all we can do is continue to educate ourselves, pros and cons, and be proactive in our own lifestyles. Nobody is ever going to completely agree on this subject. I believe you are doing the right thing by keeping an open mind to both sides of studies. Make it a personal decision though on what feels right to you. Remember, it took centuries to realize the truth behind cigarettes. Everything in this world has some kind of harmful effect one way or another.

 

[patkin]

Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?

I posted that I was quite confused by what your friend said and why. I am also just as confused by your apparent defensiveness. It seems to me that the contributors to this thread have provided some logical questions and/or answers to your dilemma on the feasibility of your friend's findings or advise. Actually, the questions and/or answers contributed are things that you, yourself, should be asking and may already be but remain silent about them. Right? Just as you have done and others here are doing... nothing wrong with questioning any information especially when it has the potential of impacting one's health whether that comes from you or these contributors. And since these are "new" here-to-fore unpublished findings by an unnamed company that can't even be researched, there can be no absolutely conclusive/scientific suggestions in disagreement with them that anyone can contribute. Thus, only questions and potential problem areas pertaining to the findings can be offered. And that has been done. In all, it seems to me that these thread contributors deserve the same "thank you" from you that you expect from them. Just sayin.

 

[xtwosm0kesx]

After thinking about this some more, has anyone realized that the information OP received from his friend directly tows the BT line regarding the design of their e-cigs.

BT loves to state things along the lines of "All current e-cigs are inferior due to inconsistent delivery of nicotine, but OUR (BT) 'micro-processor controlled' (whatever that means) e-cigs eliminate this problem using some unnamed technology."

*EDIT* Straight from RJ Reynolds Vapor (rjrvapor):

VUSE is the world's most advanced E-Cigarette and the first E-Cigarette designed
with Smart Technology. The VUSE Digital Vapor Cigarette contains a VaporDelivery
Processor that uses algorithms in the same way a computer does, therefore we refer
to it as "digital." VUSE is also the only E-Cigarette designed with a
SmartMemory chip inside the cartridge. The VaporDelivery Processor working with
the SmartMemory monitors and adjusts the power and heat delivered to the Cartridge
up to 2,000 times a second, ensuring consistently satisfying puffs - A Perfect Puff,
First Time, Every Time.

 

[patkin]

................

 

[flowerpots]

Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?

Hey wait, I meant no offense. I was trying to clarify before we got too far into the debate....1) if we are talking American BT because if not, that changes the whole context of the conversation 2) if you had any facts of which I or others reading may not be privy. I'm not calling you a troll. I'm actually on your side to the extent that I think being able to back up an argument that is founded in data and hard science is paramount to winning the battle. I think you actually made a very important post for 3 reasons: 1) it gives us insight into the thought process of those at BT 2) it gives us points to ponder on our own searches as to the legitimacy of the safety of vaping 3) you make us think and that's always good in my book.

P.S. I think many share your concern and caution with vaping, so you are neither alone in that concern, nor a troll for being concerned. There are people with allergies, people seeking the healthiest way to vape after leaving the smoking lifestyle behind. I will post some links here that may give you more info on the subject...it may take a few days.

http://casaa.org/FAQS_ecig.html

http://casaa.org/Clinical_Research.html

http://tobaccoharmreduction.org/faq/nicotine.htm

http://casaa.org/Smokefree_Health_Effects.html

http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f90349264250e603/ms08.pdf

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/455394-glycerine-vapor-acrolein-issues.html#post10381885

http://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/portal/index_en.htm#tab_eu_activities

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/canadianmetalhead/1648-pharmacokinetics-propylene-glycol-glycerin-usp-nicotine.html

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/cancerrisk.htm

Of particular interest in the above link is this quote:

"In e-cigarettes, the nicotine inhaled per puff is much less than (about one tenth) in a cigarette puff, and risk of cancer in mice from nicotine in their diet is of great theoretical interest for researchers, but no proven effect for humans."

http://truthaboutecigs.com/scares_2.php

 

[Racehorse]

I am also just as confused by your apparent defensiveness.

Calling somebody a troll does tend to bring that out, don't you think?

As soon as that happened, the rest of the topic wasn't going to go too well. It's a conversation stopper.

May as well close this one up.

 

[wv2win]

I didn't see anything specific in the study that was done at Drexel on exactly how nicotine molecules are vaporized DIFFERENTLY on different temperature atomizers and the effect of consistency of atomizer temperatures on nicotine eliquids? (ie. esp. the "burnt" hit?)

That was what the researcher above was futzing around with.....maybe I missed reading that part of the Drexel study, can somebody link me to the appropriate test results on that?

Unless I missed reading that part.

Logic tells me that any inconsistencies between one atomizer and another atomizer and how it heats eliquid, would not be so significantly different that it would cause one atomizer to create dangerous nicotine molecules and one that would not. I'm not a researcher but that just does not pass the "BS" test.

And then there is the issue of "what level of risk". As we know all too well from the infamous FDA test of 18 eliquid cartridges, you can state that there is a "risk" and forget to tell everyone that the risk is .01% and not significant. Since the symptoms of nicotine overdose are well recognized, if this "inconsistency" was an issue, after this many years of millions of people vaping, we would have known about it by now.

I'm not questioning the OP, but his friend has not passed the "BS" test.

 

[patkin]

Calling somebody a troll does tend to bring that out, don't you think?

As soon as that happened, the rest of the topic wasn't going to go too well. It's a conversation stopper.

May as well close this one up.

So where was that done? I scanned the thread again and don't find it. Did you mean for it to sound like I did? I guess its a matter of interpretation. To each their own.

 

[JulesXsmokr]

Please have your friend give you his research papers, and share it with us, so we can all verify this "talk"..
If he is your friend and wants to save you health problems, it should not be a problem since he and his fellow researchers have already done this scientific study.
Big Tobacco means Big Trouble for the E-Cig Industry, they want to bribe and try to prove that their way, and only their products work as intended.

 

[Uma]

Hi!

Yesterday evening, I spent the evening with a friend working for a big tobacco name as a lab researcher. He saw me vaping and flat out told me that it was way worse than an analog, according to tests he had conducted himself.

His argument was that of all e-cigarettes models he tested, none were able to produce consistent temperature of the atomizer. It meant that the nicotine contained in the e-liquid would react differently between two tokes. As such, a "burnt" nicotine molecule would produce cancerous molecules way worse than in an analog. He attributed this behavior to the e-cigarette's inability to control the delivery of e-liquid to the atomizer. When underfed, the atomizer would burn too hot, while when overflown, the atomizer would light up to a lower temperature.

Consequently, he mentioned the inability of an e-cigarette to control the size of the vapor drops: the biggest (low temperature) would get stuck in the throat, while the smallest (burnt) would go as far as the alveolars of the lungs.

Before starting vaping, I have read almost any study I could lay my hands on and none mentioned this in particular. When I confronted my friend with this, he mentioned than even the biggest universities didn't have the testing equipment big tobacco industries had.

His advice to me was: if you must vape, do it without nicotine. If you need your nicotine, light up a ..., it's way less harmful to you.

I have known this friend for a long time and completely trust him. I know that he wouldn't try big tobacco propaganda on me and he looked genuinely worried seeing me vaping. This evening has left me pondering on what he told me. I'd be quite interested to hear your opinion (or first-hand lab knowledge) on this. Is there really cause for concern?

Maybe he should try a regulated battery like a Provari.

 

[LDS714]

There is a difference between research of "Find out about X" and research of "Find things about X that make it compare in a specified manner with Y."

I've seen both types...

The question is which is being reported by your friend?

 

[onjre]

It seems there can be no discussion here. The friend says he knows something no one else can verify so even if good information to the contrary is shown it is assumed that it was done with inferior equipment and therefore can be thrown out. We also cannot discuss directly with the person making the claim so additional clarification on how tests were performed and what is harmful about particle size is unavailable. What is there to debate?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[Crimbshaw188]

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier or not but your friend had mentioned that it was burning at too high of a temp and producing different chemicals through oxidation. I am curious as to what temperature he is saying this would happen, being that tobacco I believe burns at around 300 degrees (correct me if im wrong).