Brace yourselves new Formaldehype junk study to be released Jan 21
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This assessment seems plausible. If you read the Reuters article, it sure appears to me that this Pankow character has already begun backing off of his prior stance somewhat, in an attempt to 'qualify' the methods and the admitted quick release of the study. (We used to call these types "Weasles" in my old neighborhood. In fact, we still call them "Weasles" in my current neighborhood!)
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If the taste is off then obviously you're inhaling more substances than you bargained for. I'd change the coil. Cheap insurance.
Reminds me a little bit of lawyers. To hell with the truth, just WIN at any cost, collect fee.
Exactly. Because "high voltage" or "5V" don't make any sense except for a particular atomizer / liquid / air flow combination.
The "safe" voltage would depend on the coil resistance, its contact surface with the wick, the wick properties, the liquid viscosity, the airflow, etc.
-5V into an Atlantis would mean 50W - it would smell like burnt rubber just at 35W (yes I tried).
-5V into a nautilus Mini with 1.8 coil would be 14W a little bit rich but no burnt rubber.
I for one never thought they would be using sub-ohm vaping. Commercial sub-ohm products just came out, I assume they are using tech that is at least 9-12 months old if not older. A CE4 on an MVP is highly probably. Neither a CE4 nor an iclear 16 would perform well at 5v.
It's not just about running hot, or dry hits, or pushing the button for too long. There is no standard vaping method. It's a bit like driving. If I drive a toyota echo and you drive a ford f150, and we're both told to take the same stretch of highway for 50 miles, our cars are going to perform differently. Part of that will be the car/truck itself, and part of that will be our individual driving styles. Maybe I hover around the speed limit, maybe you hover 9 miles above, maybe I'm hard on the brakes, maybe you prefer to let off the gas instead, maybe my tires aren't inflated, etc. In vaping terms, when I used CE4s I used a light draw, tipped and swirled constantly, didn't use any liquid higher than 50% VG, kept the voltage below 4v, etc. Setting a puff machine to 4 seconds at 5v is not intended use.
One of the updated links in DrMA's first post starting this thread is to the National Public Radio's health blog.
www.
npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/21/378663944/e-cigarettes-can-churn-out-high-levels-of-formaldehyde
Quoting from NPR's blog:
David Peyton is a chemistry professor at Portland State University who helped conduct the research...
[snipped]
Peyton acknowledges that he found no formaldehyde when the e-cigarettes were set at low levels. But he says he thinks plenty of people use the high settings.
"As I walk around town and look at people using these electronic cigarette devices it's not difficult to tell what sort of setting they're using," Peyton says. "You can see how much of the aerosol they're blowing out. It's not small amounts."
"It's pretty clear to me," he says, "that at least some of the users are using the high levels."
Yeahhhhh, not difficult for him to tell. Riiighhht. I guess those users he's so sure about really enjoy taking dry, burning hits.
Perhaps he should brush up a bit more on what an increased proportion of vegetable glycerin (VG) in e-liquids does.
www.
npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/21/378663944/e-cigarettes-can-churn-out-high-levels-of-formaldehyde
Quoting from NPR's blog:
David Peyton is a chemistry professor at Portland State University who helped conduct the research...
[snipped]
Peyton acknowledges that he found no formaldehyde when the e-cigarettes were set at low levels. But he says he thinks plenty of people use the high settings.
"As I walk around town and look at people using these electronic cigarette devices it's not difficult to tell what sort of setting they're using," Peyton says. "You can see how much of the aerosol they're blowing out. It's not small amounts."
"It's pretty clear to me," he says, "that at least some of the users are using the high levels."
Yeahhhhh, not difficult for him to tell. Riiighhht. I guess those users he's so sure about really enjoy taking dry, burning hits.
Perhaps he should brush up a bit more on what an increased proportion of vegetable glycerin (VG) in e-liquids does.
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The used device was an Innokin iTaste VV V3.0 battery and the atomizer was Sailebao CE4 with 2,1ohm coil. As we all know the clearomizer has coil and does not work well with 5 volts.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...s_find_high_levels_of_cloaked_form_of/cnwwl8v
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...s_find_high_levels_of_cloaked_form_of/cnwwl8v
From MMS: Error
At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs).
Since they only stated it was used a "tank system", you can probably asset that this was a coil around 2,5 or lower, on a cheap tank system.
When im using protank heads @ 1,9-2.2ohms, i cant really go over 3.3-3.5 V without sensing bad taste or smell. So its natural to conclude the tank system they were using was overheating due to bad wick feeding. These kind of devices were never meant to be used as a high wattage device; you would probably want to crank up volts if using a dual coil (pre assembled) but its illogical someone would really vape a single coil, pre assembled at 5v.
What it really shows is that there is a coordinated attack, because of so much "studies", often biased released on such small time frame. When you google formaldeyde vaping, all media sites are popping terror news.
At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs).
Since they only stated it was used a "tank system", you can probably asset that this was a coil around 2,5 or lower, on a cheap tank system.
When im using protank heads @ 1,9-2.2ohms, i cant really go over 3.3-3.5 V without sensing bad taste or smell. So its natural to conclude the tank system they were using was overheating due to bad wick feeding. These kind of devices were never meant to be used as a high wattage device; you would probably want to crank up volts if using a dual coil (pre assembled) but its illogical someone would really vape a single coil, pre assembled at 5v.
What it really shows is that there is a coordinated attack, because of so much "studies", often biased released on such small time frame. When you google formaldeyde vaping, all media sites are popping terror news.
Well, this much closes the case. Using a top coil, plus at dry burn level wattage. Its no wonder its wrong. It also doesnt make sense that the researches tried to approach some vaper and asked "hey would you vape this cheap tank @ 5v"? The reply would be clearly no.
While dry burning being bad to inhale is no news, the media damage is done.
I have already received mail from concerned friends that read some info on local media, stating that i should go back to cigs. Its bad, because its not that simple to explain how it works to a lay or anyone without some scientific knowledge, and the "researcher" is accredited because he has a position.
"It's pretty clear to me," he says, "that at least some of the users are using the high levels."[/B][/I]
Yeahhhhh, not difficult for him to tell. Riiighhht. I guess those users he's so sure about really enjoy taking dry, burning hits.
Perhaps he should brush up a bit more on what an increased proportion of vegetable glycerin (VG) in e-liquids does.
And this reinforces my findings that this is a coordinated attack, probably aimed at high wattage/or high ammount of vape.
How you explain to population that dry burn is different to lots of vapor? People read "more volts" and it translate "lots of vape".
So if you vape 100% VG you will be accused of releasing toxic clouds.
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I saw this on Reddit earlier and, after posting there, I thought I'd lurch over here to see what you guys were saying.
I think most of it's been said, but I can always find a little more to say, even if it turns out to be pretty much the sort of thing I've said before.
The page Reddit linked was this one: E-Cigarettes Can Churn Out High Levels Of Formaldehyde : Shots - Health News : NPR
So, it occurs to me that this 'scientist' is a strange one indeed: 'walking round town,' things become 'clear' to him, and he hopes government 'will tightly regulate' ecigs!
Perhaps it shouldn't be strange to me any more, but he didn't seem to 'see' that all these vapers were not smoking did he. This 'scientist' achieves an epiphany, a clarity of scientific thought, during his walk around town, and concludes that tight regulation is a good thing; oh dear. I think that, perhaps as is usual with these types, it all comes back to prejudice: seems to me that the guy is so prejudiced against 'smoking' (and no, that's never good, even if it's against smoking), that he is now no longer capable of any judgement other than pre-judgement. He's probably not a nasty guy, but it seems to me that he's not up to the job of providing recommendations to the FDA.
I think most of it's been said, but I can always find a little more to say, even if it turns out to be pretty much the sort of thing I've said before.
The page Reddit linked was this one: E-Cigarettes Can Churn Out High Levels Of Formaldehyde : Shots - Health News : NPR
So, it occurs to me that this 'scientist' is a strange one indeed: 'walking round town,' things become 'clear' to him, and he hopes government 'will tightly regulate' ecigs!
Perhaps it shouldn't be strange to me any more, but he didn't seem to 'see' that all these vapers were not smoking did he. This 'scientist' achieves an epiphany, a clarity of scientific thought, during his walk around town, and concludes that tight regulation is a good thing; oh dear. I think that, perhaps as is usual with these types, it all comes back to prejudice: seems to me that the guy is so prejudiced against 'smoking' (and no, that's never good, even if it's against smoking), that he is now no longer capable of any judgement other than pre-judgement. He's probably not a nasty guy, but it seems to me that he's not up to the job of providing recommendations to the FDA.
Dr. F. posts more details. As suspected, this was junk science likely done with the goal of producing these results.
Verified: formaldehyde levels found in the NEJM study were associated with dry puff conditions. An update
Verified: formaldehyde levels found in the NEJM study were associated with dry puff conditions. An update
Very important post, this should be quoted for those that don't have a chance to read the whole thread.
Some of you guys are BSing though when you say that you don't even get close to 5 volts using that equipment. At 3.3 volts that combination would barely fire. When I used a similar combination, I would run around 3.8 to 4 volts, which would be the equivalent of 7.0 - 7.6 watts.
I know for a fact that it isn't uncommon for members of this forum to much higher wattages than 7 on the same type of equipment. I remember being shocked when I heard how hot some people were running them.
On a CE4? Besides, the experimenters were running this at 11.9 watts. They were also drawing a fairly small amount of air, slowly (50 ml over 3 seconds). No idea how long they were waiting between firings, though.
Perhaps we (myself too) shouldn't pass judgments until all the facts and details are known. Hopefully the ones doing this study will give more details on their entire process at some point. Things are just starting to shake out now. A little more detail is given every hour.
Just to put things in perspective.
I normally use a Nautilus mini with 1.8 coil, rDNA40 set at 10W. I do sense a slight change in taste at 12-13W so that's why I keep it at max 10W (don't want to push my luck) This is a tank that reportedly works up to 17W without dry hits.
So what I'm saying here is that one will notice a change in taste/smell long before getting dry hits. If you check the OSHA / NIOSH sheet for aldehydes, you may notice that the smell threshold is lower than the dangerous concentration. In other words, you can smell something is wrong before getting into real danger. And if they're in dangerous concentration, they stink badly, no way you could possibly ignore them.
I normally use a Nautilus mini with 1.8 coil, rDNA40 set at 10W. I do sense a slight change in taste at 12-13W so that's why I keep it at max 10W (don't want to push my luck) This is a tank that reportedly works up to 17W without dry hits.
So what I'm saying here is that one will notice a change in taste/smell long before getting dry hits. If you check the OSHA / NIOSH sheet for aldehydes, you may notice that the smell threshold is lower than the dangerous concentration. In other words, you can smell something is wrong before getting into real danger. And if they're in dangerous concentration, they stink badly, no way you could possibly ignore them.
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