BSCiTS Study

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JustJulie

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We have received several queries about the current fundraising effort by Dr. Michael Siegel. After assessing the matter and corresponding with him, we have decided against supporting this effort and are recommending at this point that people not donate to this project.


It is with a heavy heart that we make this recommendation, which we realize might be misinterpreted as a negative statement about Dr. Siegel. Like many of you, we consider him an invaluable friend of our cause. But it is our assessment that the research project he is seeking funding for will not be useful, and that the resources it requires would be far better spent elsewhere. Dr. Siegel has provided few details about the specifics of his project (a problem in itself), but he is hoping to conduct a randomized clinical trial that includes smokers switching to e-cigarettes. We consider this to be a particularly bad way to study e-cigarettes. Trials like this do not represent the real role of e-cigarettes in society and are likely to grossly understate their value. He believes that this would influence the FDA, but we disagree. We see no reason to believe that this would affect FDA's major decisions or that they are at all interested in the results of such a study.


Most important, the proposed cost of this project -- $4.5 million -- is staggering. If every penny ever given by the community over the last 5+ years for advocacy and research were devoted to this project, it would only cover 5% of the total cost. The only way a study like this could ever be fully funded is a federal grant, and if such a grant happens, then the small sum given by the community would not matter at all.


By contrast, that sum could be enormously valuable if devoted to other projects. The critically important study by Dr. Burstyn, which the community generously paid for, cost only one half of one percent of that sum. Dr. Farsalinos has conducted several crowd-funded studies for similarly low costs. CASAA acts as your advocate at the state and federal level, provides educational materials and ongoing analysis, and supports various research projects for annual expenditures that are about 2% of the budget for this single study. We fear that community donations to Dr Siegel's project will take away from critical needs elsewhere and will still be insufficient to make the project happen.


We realize that this could be seen as mercenary, and some will think that we are asking people to give money to us and not this study. But this is not about CASAA. It is about the needs of the community as a whole. If you were thinking about donating to the project then, of course, CASAA would appreciate the donation instead. But if that is not your preference, please give the money to, for example, the vaping Militia, vape A Vet, your local ecig group, one of the European groups that is trying to form, or hold onto it for Dr. Farsalinos's next project.
 

zoiDman

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...

It is with a heavy heart that we make this recommendation, which we realize might be misinterpreted as a negative statement about Dr. Siegel. Like many of you, we consider him an invaluable friend of our cause. But it is our assessment that the research project he is seeking funding for will not be useful, and that the resources it requires would be far better spent elsewhere. ...

This is Always a Difficult decision to make.

Where to Best Apply a Limited amount of resources to Help Advance a Cause.
 

JustJulie

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As many of you know, CASAA recently advised consumers not to contribute to a study that was proposed by Dr. Michael Siegel. We noted that it was so expensive that consumer donations could not possibly affect whether it was successfully funded, and we also pointed out reasons why it appeared that it would not accomplish what he was promising, even if he could fund it.

Siegel ended his crowdfunding, which we believe was the right thing to do, and also cancelled the project, which we believe was inevitable given his funding goals. However, he chose to blame his failure on CASAA and make some defamatory statements about what we said to him. Carl V Phillips responded to him in a personal blog post, which is worth reading if you are interested in this drama.

CASAA was not privy to all that Carl reports about, and thus cannot endorse every word of it (though we certainly do not doubt Carl), so this is not a CASAA statement. Nevertheless we believe it is an appropriate response and we endorse it in general.

http://ep-ology.com/2014/09/27/mike...-of-his-ill-advised-research-plans-on-others/
 
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ladyraj

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As many of you know, CASAA recently advised consumers not to contribute to a study that was proposed by Dr. Michael Siegel. We noted that it was so expensive that consumer donations could not possibly affect whether it was successfully funded, and we also pointed out reasons why it appeared that it would not accomplish what he was promising, even if he could fund it.

Siegel ended his crowdfunding, which we believe was the right thing to do, and also cancelled the project, which we believe was inevitable given his funding goals. However, he chose to blame his failure on CASAA and make some defamatory statements about what we said to him. Carl V Phillips responded to him in a personal blog post, which is worth reading if you are interested in this drama.

CASAA was not privy to all that Carl reports about, and thus cannot endorse every word of it (though we certainly do not doubt Carl), so this is not a CASAA statement. Nevertheless we believe it is an appropriate response and we endorse it in general.

Mike Siegel inappropriately blames the failure of his ill-advised research plans on others | EP-ology


Respectfully, even if this is not a CASAA statement, linking to content that contains the word "scammer" seems inappropriate. :2c:
 

zoiDman

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Respectfully, even if this is not a CASAA statement, linking to content that contains the word "scammer" seems inappropriate. :2c:

When taken Out of Context, that does seem somewhat Inappropriate.

But when one Reads the Paragraph where the word Scammer was used, I get a Different take on things.

...

Indeed, I told Siegel that the “consultant” metaphor was charitable because what it really smelled like was the behavior of a scammer. Of course, I made it clear that neither I nor presumably anyone else actually thought that he might be embezzling money or anything like that. But if your behavior looks like that of a scammer, especially when you are a public researcher, then you are probably skirting the boundaries of ethics (at best). A scammer would promise that the money would solve some major problem that the mark desperately wants to believe can be solved with a magic bullet (which Siegel basically did, though he had no reasonable basis for giving such assurances), would respond to every stated doubt immediately and with complete confidence but nothing concrete, and would say “give me whatever you can — if it is not enough, I will still do something good with it.” As I said, no one thought he was scamming under the guise of funding research (though there is a precedent for that happening in the e-cigarette community, so that is not without a touchstone), but if it feels like it, then something is ethically wrong. Indeed, I described the situation to researcher colleagues outside the e-cigarette community and they agreed. None of us could put our finger on a per se ethical violation (though depending on the exact rules at Boston University, there might be one), but we all agreed it felt very, very sketchy.

...

This Entire Situation has been Difficult for All Parties Involved. But I Support CASAA for what they Decided. And the way they have Handled it.
 

ladyraj

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Thank you for the replies. Let me clarify my position. The word "scammer", as it pertains to funding, is an inflammatory word that elicits a negative association. Back-peddling via assurances the party is probably not a "scammer" does little to ameliorate this association. If I want to warn a peer of possible misperception I wouldn't have to use inflammatory words to do so.

It is customary for peers who disagree with one another to do so in a diplomatic way. It follows that CASAA should exercise caution when linking to disputes that contains behavior perceived as uncustomary.

I respect both researchers and view the activities of the last few days as an unfortunate expression of frustration. :2c:
 

ladyraj

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Excerpt: "Indeed, I described the situation to researcher colleagues outside the e-cigarette community and they agreed. None of us could put our finger on a per se ethical violation (though depending on the exact rules at Boston University, there might be one), but we all agreed it felt very, very sketchy."

I can deduce from the statement that a researcher (Phillips) presented another researcher's (Siegel) methodology with other researchers who all agree that although no one could came up with a possible ethical violation, there may be one at BU (they don't know) but...it's all sketchy.

Now I don't know about you but...scammer, sketchy, possible ethical violations all have negative connotations that are unmerited by the stated lack of knowledge of any possible ethical violation. Why use this type of inflammatory language?
 

Katya

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Excerpt: "Indeed, I described the situation to researcher colleagues outside the e-cigarette community and they agreed. None of us could put our finger on a per se ethical violation (though depending on the exact rules at Boston University, there might be one), but we all agreed it felt very, very sketchy."

I can deduce from the statement that a researcher (Phillips) presented another researcher's (Siegel) methodology with other researchers who all agree that although no one could came up with a possible ethical violation, there may be one at BU (they don't know) but...it's all sketchy.

Now I don't know about you but...scammer, sketchy, possible ethical violations all have negative connotations that are unmerited by the stated lack of knowledge of any possible ethical violation. Why use this type of inflammatory language?

Hi ladyraj.

A few thoughts, if I may.

First of all, CASAA and their official statement never called Dr. Siegel a scammer. As a matter of fact, they said the following:

It is with a heavy heart that we make this recommendation, which we realize might be misinterpreted as a negative statement about Dr. Siegel. Like many of you, we consider him an invaluable friend of our cause.

And the following (wrt Phillips's blog):

CASAA was not privy to all that Carl reports about, and thus cannot endorse every word of it (though we certainly do not doubt Carl), so this is not a CASAA statement. Nevertheless we believe it is an appropriate response and we endorse it in general.

Bloggers (like Phillips and .... Puddlecote, i.e.) are passionate and colorful people and often use strong language to make their point. They speak only for themselves and respond to no-one.

Dr. Siegel has his own agenda, which sometimes coincides with ours, and sometimes doesn't. In this case, it didn't. I hope that we can all learn to co-exist and be able to disagree, once in a while, without taking our eyes off the ball. Right now, our main fight is with the FDA and the deeming regulations. We can worry about the efficacy of e-cigs as a quit-smoking device at some other time--especially considering that the proposed study came with a $4.5 mil price tag.
 

csardaz

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I can deduce from the statement that a researcher (Phillips) presented another researcher's (Siegel) methodology with other researchers who all agree that although no one could came up with a possible ethical violation, there may be one at BU (they don't know) but...it's all sketchy.

Not the study methodology. The appeal for funding. Hitting up a population, thats threatened with a form of extinction, for money with a promise that this sort of study will increase their chances of avoiding said extinction.
 

ladyraj

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Not the study methodology. The appeal for funding. Hitting up a population, thats threatened with a form of extinction, for money with a promise that this sort of study will increase their chances of avoiding said extinction.

Thank you Csardaz, you've made some very fine points. The focus should be the fight to keep our products available and not the petty grievances of a war of words between researchers. I know the people on this forum will generously donate to a cause deemed worthy in that effort. I'm not defending Siegel's method of funding or CASAA's decision to recommend non-participation in the fund. What I had hoped to do, but failed evidently, was to warn about linking to sites where professionals are losing focus and arguing with one another.

When I read Phillip's blog I confess I had a strong reaction to the terminology used. perhaps it's a personal failing that triggered the reaction. The activities between these 2 researchers the last few days I view as an unfortunate display of unprofessional behavior. I have always hoped that we on this forum could rise above the fray. :D
 

zoiDman

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I think what the Bigger Issue here is How are Limited Resources Allocated?

In a Perfect World, people like CASAA would be tripping over Piles of Un-Cashed Donation Checks. And all Someone wanting to Raising Millions for a Study would have to do is just start a thread and then Watching the Money Role in.

But we Don't Live in that World.

We live in a World where getting 20% of the Active ECF Members to Comment to the FDA is a Struggle. And even less would Consider Donating Monies to an Advocacy Cause.

At this Point, I would much Rather see people Thinking along the lines of Raising Monies for Lobbying or a Legal Litigation Fund. Verses a Study.

Because there are only So Many Times you can Ask an Individual or Company to Donate Monies. So we have to Maximize where these Monies are Spent.
 

JustJulie

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CASAA has made its position clear, and I personally have no interest in fanning the flames. Reasonable minds can agree to disagree on the issue, and I'm certainly not going to take anyone to task for disagreeing with our recommendation or disagreeing with how we handled making our views known.

CASAA's recommendation didn't kill the project by any stretch of the imagination. (Anything collected from this community would have been but a drop in the bucket.) In fact, my understanding is that the project has not been abandoned and that Dr. Siegel is now seeking industry funding for his project, which is where CASAA believes he should have been directing his efforts in any event. We expect that the large and medium-sized businesses--who presumably have access to scientists and lawyers to vet the project--will be in a good position to decide whether or not it is something they wish to support.
 
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