Bummed About Future Lack of Innovation

[EddardinWinter]

What's a thread on ECF if it doesn't get hijacked once in a while? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And back to the topic we go!

There will be innovation still, just not available in the US...Unless we get some changes made.

I do agree with the sentiment that vaping gear most certainly will continue to evolve....in the more free market of the Chinese.

Let that sink in a second.

So that is good for mankind, and some US veteran vapers will carry on smuggling black market style and getting it done. That is a cause to smile.

But....lots of American (& perhaps many other markets) potential new users won't ever start. This will hurt the market and hammer American vape innovation.

Such a shame.

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[Canadian_Vaper]

potential new users won't ever start.

The whole reason I got into advocacy and the reason I continue to, mostly in Canada however I try to fight misleading articles with common sense globally unfortunately headlines have more impact than comments

 

[subwayaznm]

I have a couple and sources for the products But it's sad that we would even have to think or do this on something healthy and legal

 

[Verb]

I look forward to seeing the garage/small machine shop innovation that comes out of the U.S. post ban. Lots of small runs, regional diversification, get it when you find it because you won't again, lots of fun ahead.

 

[daviedog]

In 9 years of vaping,,no positive correlation to medical or health problems observed.
Why should the Vaping industry have to defend itself? What crime?
As of August 8 the Vaping industry was "Gagged", without a court order. Defence now not possible.
First "political" enemies of the State in American history..

 

[EddardinWinter]

In 9 years of vaping,,no positive correlation to medical or health problems observed.
Why should the Vaping industry have to defend itself? What crime?
As of August 8 the Vaping industry was "Gagged", without a court order. Defence now not possible.
First "political" enemies of the State in American history..

If only our government respected our citizens right to control and decide what is right to put in our own bodies....wouldn't that be something?

If only it were a bit more restrained in its regulations imposed upon the public. Doing so only when a clear health risk has been determined and the costs of such regulations fully assessed and understood.

More trusting and open to free markets, like the Chinese government is.

The FDA sucks. What they've done is ethically reprehensible, regardless of its legality.

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[Eskie]

More trusting and open to free markets, like the Chinese government is.

I agree with points about over-regulation and individual rights, but two things the Chinese government are not is trusting and open to free markets. Not a knock, but good luck getting your products sold to Chinese consumers there that are not made in China.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I agree with points about over-regulation and individual rights, but two things the Chinese government are not is trusting and open to free markets. Not a knock, but good luck getting your products sold to Chinese consumers there that are not made in China.

I would argue that the Chinese do import many foreign products, but I will concede that the restrictions on entry to that market are formidable. The Chinese can be cited as protectionist in many cases. They are notorious manipulators of markets.

But they do permit their public more freedom to choose vaping products...that was my point. How bold must our bureaucracy be to enact such a thing via bureaucratic fiat? It really is sobering.

I must concede that the Chinese government trusts their citizens (in this area, at least) more than the US government trusts us.

The good news is (getting Back on Topic) the Chinese do not hesitate to export freely. While Chinese QC can be suspect, their ideas are often quite clever. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

[Semiretired]

Our only avenue is our overseas vendors for new stuff

I kind of wonder about that. I travel internationally and wonder just what they are going to require to clear customs if you bring something back???

 

[Tommy-Chi]

If only our government respected our citizens right to control and decide what is right to put in our own bodies....wouldn't that be something?

If only it were a bit more restrained in its regulations imposed upon the public. Doing so only when a clear health risk has been determined and the costs of such regulations fully assessed and understood.

More trusting and open to free markets, like the Chinese government is.

The FDA sucks. What they've done is ethically reprehensible, regardless of its legality.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

It's none of their business. I'm not using any of their resources, do not think that I will be a cost down the road to anyone else due to vaping, paying my own way, and I mind my own business.

These people are arrogant, and do not run under the banner of "Soon I will be deciding what hobbies and what choices you may have for living, so vote for me." They are scam artists worse than Al Capone.

 

[Eskie]

But they do permit their public more freedom to choose vaping products...that was my point. How bold must our bureaucracy be to enact such a thing via bureaucratic fiat? It really is sobering.

Then again, tobacco use in China makes the US quite tame.

"China is becoming a smoker’s paradise—and a doctor’s nightmare.

Cigarettes are an increasingly gendered health risk in China, according to a new study that reports 68% of Chinese men smoke, compared to just 3.2% of women.

The study of male and female smoking trends, published in medical journal The Lancet on Oct. 8, doesn’t mince words when it comes to health risks. The authors conclude that smoking will cause roughly one in five adult male deaths in China during the current decade. And the fatality rate will rise steadily without preventative action."

Source: 68% of Chinese men are smokers—and millions will die because of it

300 million smokers in China.

I must concede that the Chinese government trusts their citizens (in this area, at least) more than the US government trusts us.

The good news is (getting Back on Topic) the Chinese do not hesitate to export freely. While Chinese QC can be suspect, their ideas are often quite clever. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Not sure I would necessarily buy your argument about trusting their citizens more. Problems relating to product safety are certainly well known in the West, from lead paint contaminated toys to melamine contamination of dog food. But it does extend well beyond just exports. This excerpt from the Brookings Institute:

"China’s food safety woes are well-known: Exposés have become all too common, especially after the 2008 scandal over melamine-tainted milk. From gutter oil to fake eggs to contaminated strawberries, the long list of food safety incidents in China means that domestic consumers are understandably worried about the food they can buy and eat. According to a Pew Global Attitudes survey, 71 percent of Chinese people considered food safety to be a big problem in 2015. Improving food safety in China is also important for international consumers because food and ingredients from China can be found on supermarket shelves all over the world."

Source: What China’s food safety challenges mean for consumers, regulators, and the global economy | Brookings Institution

I do recognize and appreciate the manufacturing capability of China, but I sorta wouldn't look to them as the model for concern about their citizens' safety. Not saying the FDA is right. Far from it. But some sort of happy medium when it comes to vaping, especially studying and observing for any long term adverse medical effects isn't a bad idea. Regulating it to the point of it literally going underground thereby providing no means to determine just that long term safety and efficacy in smoking cessation doesn't make sense either.

 

[daviedog]

In China smoking will eclipse the one child edict..

 

[WharfRat1976]

The only sockdolager here was provided by the FDA.

 

[Robino1]

The only sockdolager here was provided by the FDA.

You've been waiting to use that word, haven't ya?

 

[Semiretired]

You've been waiting to use that word, haven't ya?

Somebody had to...

 

[daviedog]

i ordered a noisy cricket 2 from fastech, To be released SEPT 10. month after cut off date. Test run..

 

[Semiretired]

i ordered a noisy cricket 2 from fastech, To be released SEPT 10. month after cut off date. Test run..

There was a post that someone tried to purchase a device released after 8-8 and FT said it could not be delivered to the US. Kind of curious to see if you get it...

 

[EddardinWinter]

Source: 68% of Chinese men are smokers—and millions will die because of it

300 million smokers in China.

I do recognize and appreciate the manufacturing capability of China, but I sorta wouldn't look to them as the model for concern about their citizens' safety.

Regulations that should/could/would have been easily able to provide some basic protections for the public and the industry. That's not what we got, is it? Hell, I could write a better set of rules on an index card. I would have done so for free!

Let me ask you this, since you seem to favor (some type, not necessarily this) regulation.

What known public safety issue was improved with these regulations, and do you believe the costs were considered when they deemed the regulation?

I never suggested that we "look to them (China) as the model for concern about their citizens' safety." I would have accepted your food concerns without citation. I do not have rose colored glasses when I look at China. I recognize China for what it is, but my central points is:

China will allow its citizens to make vaping choices, more so than our government.

<Therefore>

Future innovation will come from the Chinese.​

I wish it were not true. I believe American vape innovation is/was an irreplaceable asset. It has been crippled, perhaps permanently. Now all we have left is overseas....and China will be the leader.

Perhaps this is due in part to the 300 million smokers that they see as a legitimate health threat, and vaping as part of a possible Harm Reduction strategy. Perhaps they do not have a version of the FDA that is so compromised by its strategic partnerships with BP and BT (a BT certainly exists in China!) and the cronyism that results from such things.

I cannot say for certain "why", it is just an interesting speculation.

 

[EddardinWinter]

The only sockdolager here was provided by the FDA.

Yes. So far. Maybe that will be the only haymaker. But, maybe not.

 

[Eskie]

Regulations that should/could/would have been easily able to provide some basic protections for the public and the industry. That's not what we got, is it? Hell, I could write a better set of rules on an index card. I would have done so for free!

Let me ask you this, since you seem to favor (some type, not necessarily this) regulation.

What known public safety issue was improved with these regulations, and do you believe the costs were considered when they deemed the regulation?

I never suggested that we "look to them (China) as the model for concern about their citizens' safety." I would have accepted your food concerns without citation. I do not have rose colored glasses when I look at China. I recognize China for what it is, but my central points is:

China will allow its citizens to make vaping choices, more so than our government.

<Therefore>

Future innovation will come from the Chinese.​

I wish it were not true. I believe American vape innovation is/was an irreplaceable asset. It has been crippled, perhaps permanently. Now all we have left is overseas....and China will be the leader.

Perhaps this is due in part to the 300 million smokers that they see as a legitimate health threat, and vaping as part of a possible Harm Reduction strategy. Perhaps they do not have a version of the FDA that is so compromised by its strategic partnerships with BP and BT (a BT certainly exists in China!) and the cronyism that results from such things.

I cannot say for certain "why", it is just an interesting speculation.

It is simply unreasonable to believe no regulation will or even should take place in the US. The issue, which I agree with you on, is that these regulations are ill thought out and will do nothing to improve public health. Any reasonable restructuring of these regulations will require a shift in attitude by the FDA to recognize harm reduction as an acceptable goal without it resulting in reclassifying e cigs as a drug such as current NRTs. E cigs do not fit the tobacco regulation model that was created when the FDA was first handed regulation. E cigs belong in their own category with regulations appropriate to the product(s).

China will continue to innovate in the field. There are still manufacturers in Europe that will innovate as well. There is also nothing stopping US manufacturers from developing new products and either making them in the US for export, or subcontracting out manufacturing in China or some other country.