Can the good people of virginia get a little help?

[Webby]

I was kinda going off webby's response more then hers. Somehow I thought he was the leader and was saying that CASAA's resources would better be used for public awareness. If I misunderstood I apologize. I am so upset right now. I don't understand how individuals can spread misinformation on a government website and essentially rewrite our laws skirting due process. I am horrified by this.

Mac,

I am the Moderator of this forum and Chair for CASAA but have always tried to make it clear that I do not "speak for CASAA" There are 13 extremely talented and experienced folks on our board and we act as a team. It may appear at times that we aren't burning up the landscape with visible activities, but I assure you there are things happening behind the scenes that will be much more apparent very soon.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that CASAA's only direction is one of enhancing public awareness, although that is a very critical need in our fight and one that we will support with direction and materials for efforts just like the ones you decribed.

Depending on Judge Leon's decision the battle can swing a number of different ways. We may need to focus on the appeal process, prepare to deal with e-cigarettes as a tobaco product or some other fight. Gathering and understanding our resources will make the difference in whether we become a formidable force or go off like a gross of bottle rockets in every direction, but with little real impact.

Again, I am not referring specifically to your issue, only to what we as CASAA's Board are doing - and yes - this is exactly where to voice your concerns and ask for help. No advocacy group has unlimited resources and we need to understand more about what exactly we can do to help. By having doctors and legal experts on the Board, we can decide how to use those resources best.

Thanks,
Michal

 

[Mac]

Mac,

I am the Moderator of this forum and Chair for CASAA but have always tried to make it clear that I do not "speak for CASAA" There are 13 extremely talented and experienced folks on our board and we act as a team. It may appear at times that we aren't burning up the landscape with visible activities, but I assure you there are things happening behind the scenes that will be much more apparent very soon.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that CASAA's only direction is one of enhancing public awareness, although that is a very critical need in our fight and one that we will support with direction and materials for efforts just like the ones you decribed.

Depending on Judge Leon's decision the battle can swing a number of different ways. We may need to focus on the appeal process, prepare to deal with e-cigarettes as a tobaco product or some other fight. Gathering and understanding our resources will make the difference in whether we become a formidable force or go off like a gross of bottle rockets in every direction, but with little real impact.

Again, I am not referring specifically to your issue, only to what we as CASAA's Board are doing - and yes - this is exactly where to voice your concerns and ask for help. No advocacy group has unlimited resources and we need to understand more about what exactly we can do to help. By having doctors and legal experts on the Board, we can decide how to use those resources best.

Thanks,
Michal

Ok great. If you guys decide you can or would like to try to help with this issue please let me know. Hopefully I won't be in court fighting a ticket I received for doing my job. I don't think a $25 ticket will break me. But according to that FAQ I am violating it about 600 times a day. so yeah I guess it's could be a real problem. A lawyer has advised me though that this individual is way off base and that if I am cited it will be laughed out of court. So maybe i am wrrying for nothing. Honestly I am getting really sick of being attacked for trying to do my job. If I was selling tobacco or crackpipes or fast food I could do so in peace. Since our product threatens the coffers of the elite I guess I need to get used to being a target.

 

[Webby]

Mac,

Here's VA's ban's definition:

"Smoke" or "smoking" means the carrying or holding of any lighted pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind, or any other lighted smoking equipment, or the lighting, inhaling, or exhaling of smoke from a pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind.

http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe...http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod

It’s an acceptable argument that e-cigarettes are not “lit” nor do they produce “smoke” in the general terms listed above.

The real problem is that the VA Dept of Health, erroneously, states in its FAQ to the public that electronic cigarettes are covered by the new smoking ban.

Here it is: http://www.vdh.state.va.us/breatheeasy/faqs.htm

In particular:

Are electronic cigarettes banned under the new law?


Electronic cigarettes are considered cigarettes and are banned in the same locations affected by the new law.

It appears that the VA Dept. of Health has overstepped the boundaries, unilaterally making their own decision about the classification of e-cigs. A lot is going to depend on Judge Leon's ruling. If he decides e-cigs are a new drug, then of course we can go to the VA Dept. of Health and say they are wrong, If he rules they are tobacco products then VA Dept. of Health is completely within their rights to exclude them. At that point, we would have to convince them that the new law did not include e-cigs. Since it did not specifically exclude e-cigs, it may fall to the VA courts to decide.

The key point is Judge Leon’s ruling. At this moment, e-cigs have not been classified, so the wording “Electronic cigarettes are considered cigarettes and are banned in the same locations affected by the new law.” is premature at best.

This was addressed in another thread (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/42307-newbie-question.html) and a user wrote the VA Dept. of Health, making the same argument. This was the response, "New information indicates the "vapor" is not as clean as they claim. Until we get good third party verification of the "vapor's" safety, we consider an E cigarette as a "cigarette of any kind."

CASAA is submitting a letter to the VA Dept of Health asking for clarification and expressing your (and our) concerns. This sounds like an issue for a VA attorney, better versed in your state’s law although it is unlikely that there will be any outcome prior to Judge Leon’s ruling.


I know this isn’t really what you wanted to hear, but CASAA just doesn’t have the resources to send a legal team like the ACLU does. We have heard from a number of members in VA (and other states facing similar laws) expressing similar concerns and we aren’t dropping this. I’ll post a copy of the final letter, any follow up and share with the forum any input from other members.

Thanks,
Michal

 

[yvilla]

Webby, a point of clarification: I would not agree to ask the VA Dept. of Health for "clarification". It is already perfectly clear - their FAQ stating that ecigs fall within the new VA law banning smoking in public places is flat out wrong. And that's what any letter from us must state.

And technically, there is no issue with the fact that the law does not "exclude" ecigs. It doesn't have to, because by definition, a law that defines what is to be prohibited does precisely that. Anything NOT in that definition is simply not in it, ie, is excluded.

 

[Webby]

I bow and defer to CASAA's Legal Council.

 

[kristin]

I am with you. Compromising is exactly how these bans became law. We can not afford to be complacent about e-cigs. Even if a case is won in regards to proving the smoking ban does not include e-cigs, they will just rewrite it to make sure it does. It would be a very short lived victory. Anyone who thinks the continuation of compromises, begging or even logic will work, is deluding themselves.

Kindly say what you think SHOULD be done, then?

--------------------------------------------------------

As far as CASAA taking this on, the best we could do would be to publically denounce the action and write to the legislators of the state, but ideally, the state's CONSTITUANTS should be the one's doing the loudest complaining and they would have a much greater impact on their legislators than some "e-cig group board." CASAA would, of course, do everything they could to help support the vapers of Virginia and any other community facing similar legislation. Remember that CASAA is not just it's 13 board members - it's all of the e-cig and smokeless alternative users who have joined CASAA.

I would highly recommend that other Virginia vapers follow Vocalek's lead and write a letter to your governor, mayor and state and municipal legislators. If anyone needs help drafting effective letters, I'm sure CASAA members could come up with a letter like Vocalek's. And we should make a call to the other CASAA members to similarily write to Virginia's leaders in support of our Virginia CASAA members.

If someone in Virginia could get us names and addresses of the powers that be, it'd be a good start!

Mac, what you're doing on the other thread (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo.../53135-attention-all-va-lawyers-who-vape.html) is exactly what needs to be done - get the attention of fellow Virginian vapers and write to everyone they know. It looks like you've already got the Speaker and a couple senators contacted through fellow members. That's what needs to be done!!

I would also contact your employer and maybe their lawyer can put together a quick "cease and desist" letter to the Virginia Health Department? At least that could get the statement off their site. Sometimes a good letter from an attorney is enough to get the job done.

 

[Thulium]

Webby, a point of clarification: I would not agree to ask the VA Dept. of Health for "clarification". It is already perfectly clear - their FAQ stating that ecigs fall within the new VA law banning smoking in public places is flat out wrong. And that's what any letter from us must state.

And technically, there is no issue with the fact that the law does not "exclude" ecigs. It doesn't have to, because by definition, a law that defines what is to be prohibited does precisely that. Anything NOT in that definition is simply not in it, ie, is excluded.

It should also be pointed out that the SE vs. FDA case should have no bearing here because the definition of "smoking" in the Virginia code refers to "cigarettes of any kind" so it does not matter if personal vaporizers are considered a tobacco product or not. The fact is they are not lit and they do not produce smoke, therefore they are not included in this definition of smoking.

Regarding the statement "New information indicates the 'vapor' is not as clean as they claim."--what 'new information' is referenced here? Certainly they are not referring to the FDA study?

Although the FDA study did detect Diethylene Glycol in one and trace levels of TSNAs, "Screening for the possible tobacco specific impurities cotinine, nicotine-N-oxide, nornicotine, anabasine and myosmine was negative" when they tested the actual vapor.

To my knowledge, there are no data indicating any significant health risk from e-cigarette vapor. If the Virginia Dept of Health has information to the contrary, they should cite it.

 

[Mac]

Mac,

Here's VA's ban's definition:

"Smoke" or "smoking" means the carrying or holding of any lighted pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind, or any other lighted smoking equipment, or the lighting, inhaling, or exhaling of smoke from a pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind.

http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe...http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod

It’s an acceptable argument that e-cigarettes are not “lit” nor do they produce “smoke” in the general terms listed above.

The real problem is that the VA Dept of Health, erroneously, states in its FAQ to the public that electronic cigarettes are covered by the new smoking ban.

Here it is: http://www.vdh.state.va.us/breatheeasy/faqs.htm

In particular:

Are electronic cigarettes banned under the new law?


Electronic cigarettes are considered cigarettes and are banned in the same locations affected by the new law.

It appears that the VA Dept. of Health has overstepped the boundaries, unilaterally making their own decision about the classification of e-cigs. A lot is going to depend on Judge Leon's ruling. If he decides e-cigs are a new drug, then of course we can go to the VA Dept. of Health and say they are wrong, If he rules they are tobacco products then VA Dept. of Health is completely within their rights to exclude them. At that point, we would have to convince them that the new law did not include e-cigs. Since it did not specifically exclude e-cigs, it may fall to the VA courts to decide.

The key point is Judge Leon’s ruling. At this moment, e-cigs have not been classified, so the wording “Electronic cigarettes are considered cigarettes and are banned in the same locations affected by the new law.” is premature at best.

This was addressed in another thread (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/42307-newbie-question.html) and a user wrote the VA Dept. of Health, making the same argument. This was the response, "New information indicates the "vapor" is not as clean as they claim. Until we get good third party verification of the "vapor's" safety, we consider an E cigarette as a "cigarette of any kind."

CASAA is submitting a letter to the VA Dept of Health asking for clarification and expressing your (and our) concerns. This sounds like an issue for a VA attorney, better versed in your state’s law although it is unlikely that there will be any outcome prior to Judge Leon’s ruling.


I know this isn’t really what you wanted to hear, but CASAA just doesn’t have the resources to send a legal team like the ACLU does. We have heard from a number of members in VA (and other states facing similar laws) expressing similar concerns and we aren’t dropping this. I’ll post a copy of the final letter, any follow up and share with the forum any input from other members.

Thanks,
Michal

Yes, I have read the laws. I have also had a locla attorney explain to me the very same thing you said. Do whatever man. I don't think it matters any more. The ECA is working to destroy me. The federal government is working to kill me. The health department seeks to ruin me. You think you are too small to do anything? Imagine how I feel.

I have done everything right and I am met with nothing but hostility. Meanwhile all those jerks who ship cheap crap break all the rules and disappear get rich. To be honest I am so completely disgusted right now that I am tempted to go buy a pack of friggin marlboros so I can give every one their wish and go slowly die..

 

[kristin]

Mac, I really feel for you - I really do! My profession was in a very precarious position not long ago. The "experts" were saying that real estate agents were a dying breed and everyone would be buying houses online. Well, 12 years later, we've moved our information to the internet and people need us more than ever! Agents who have refused to move online have seen their business dwindle. I remember one agent clinging to her outdated inventory books and claiming that NAR (the National Association of Realtors - our version of the ECA) was trying to put her out of business by putting all of the listings online. Ten years later, she has adapted, has email and a web page and is still hanging in there.

The moral of the story is that changes and sacrifices had to be made and attitudes had to change for real estate professionals to still be competitive and the electronic cigarette community must do the same, if it is to survive at all. You are not the victim of the ECA or online vendors. You are the victim of unscrupulous kiosk vendors who have put the entire vaping community at risk by their unethical behavior. Online vendors are at the same risk, by their similarily unethical online vendors, who are making unproven health & product performance claims.

I (personally) agree that the ECA are taking the wrong approach, to resolve this negative publicity, by calling for the removal of kiosks. I encourage you to contact them again and ask that they reconsider their stance and call, instead, for regulation, such as licensing. I truly believe licensing would instill the consumer confidence that is currently lacking and have a more long-term effect, because they will go after the online vendors the same way, once the kiosks are gone, if no sign of regulation is in place.

They are essentially shooting themselves in the foot, if they call for kiosks to be banned.

 

[Thulium]

Yes, I have read the laws. I have also had a locla attorney explain to me the very same thing you said. Do whatever man. I don't think it matters any more. The ECA is working to destroy me. The federal government is working to kill me. The health department seeks to ruin me. You think you are too small to do anything? Imagine how I feel.

I have done everything right and I am met with nothing but hostility. Meanwhile all those jerks who ship cheap crap break all the rules and disappear get rich. To be honest I am so completely disgusted right now that I am tempted to go buy a pack of friggin marlboros so I can give every one their wish and go slowly die..

Mac, you'll have to take my word for it, but trust me when I say I completely understand your feelings of frustration. If you seriously are feeling tempted to smoke an analog, as silly as it sounds I might suggest instead trying a different smoke-free alternative like dissolvable tobacco. Every one in a while I've found that having a Camel Fresh Strip gives me just enough of jolt of the other tobacco alkaloids/MAOIs that I don't get from vaping to temper the emotional rollercoaster that we face in this fight.

...and I use the word "fight" not because we need to be confrontational but because we are under attack. Considering how many Chantix commercials I see on TV every day, I strongly suspect that it is the pharmaceutical companies who are attempting to squash smoke-free alternatives. Regardless, the efforts to villify anything that even RESEMBLES smoking are so ubiquitous that our mission is no small mountain to climb. Its not called a "David versus Goliath" struggle because its gonna be easy.

This is why we really need to stick together on this. Yes, even when we disagree. ...and, yes, even when you feel like an organization isn't doing enough to support you or even working against you. No matter what, we need to support each other rather than tear each other down.

Mac, it sounds like the best thing you can do to is actually TRY to get a citation for vaping at work so that a judge will have to make a ruling and establish precedent.

Even if you lose, you're only out $25--I wish the fine in my state for violating the indoor smoking ban was so low...it's $500 here and our ban does not allow for ANY indoor smoking areas except for hotels and cigar shops. Fortunately, to my knowledge we don't have a health department trying to say that e-cigarettes are restricted by Oregon's Smoke Free Public Place law...but we do have an Attorney General who has stopped mall kiosk sales altogether.

I actually have the unenviable job of spending half-time during Portland Trailblazer games of making sure every smoker on the upper level smokes ONLY in the approx 1000 square feet of UNSHELTERED patio space. Can you imagine how un-fun that is? I bet you can't. This is me a few hundred times a night: "Sir, please smoke on the other side of the yellow line. (Yes, I know that its horribly cold and windy and rainy and there is no protection from the elements over there and there isn't even enough room to stand there...but I have to say it anyway.) Last Saturday, after losing our starting center to a season ending fractured patella, I could be heard shouting to the crowd, "Whoever is smoking weed, could you please just put it out so I don't have to do something about it!?" ...Satisfyingly, everyone around was pleased with that way of handling it.

 

[Mac]

Mac, you'll have to take my word for it, but trust me when I say I completely understand your feelings of frustration. If you seriously are feeling tempted to smoke an analog, as silly as it sounds I might suggest instead trying a different smoke-free alternative like dissolvable tobacco. Every one in a while I've found that having a Camel Fresh Strip gives me just enough of jolt of the other tobacco alkaloids/MAOIs that I don't get from vaping to temper the emotional rollercoaster that we face in this fight.

...and I use the word "fight" not because we need to be confrontational but because we are under attack. Considering how many Chantix commercials I see on TV every day, I strongly suspect that it is the pharmaceutical companies who are attempting to squash smoke-free alternatives. Regardless, the efforts to villify anything that even RESEMBLES smoking are so ubiquitous that our mission is no small mountain to climb. Its not called a "David versus Goliath" struggle because its gonna be easy.

This is why we really need to stick together on this. Yes, even when we disagree. ...and, yes, even when you feel like an organization isn't doing enough to support you or even working against you. No matter what, we need to support each other rather than tear each other down.

Mac, it sounds like the best thing you can do to is actually TRY to get a citation for vaping at work so that a judge will have to make a ruling and establish precedent.

Even if you lose, you're only out $25--I wish the fine in my state for violating the indoor smoking ban was so low...it's $500 here and our ban does not allow for ANY indoor smoking areas except for hotels and cigar shops. Fortunately, to my knowledge we don't have a health department trying to say that e-cigarettes are restricted by Oregon's Smoke Free Public Place law...but we do have an Attorney General who has stopped mall kiosk sales altogether.

I actually have the unenviable job of spending half-time during Portland Trailblazer games of making sure every smoker on the upper level smokes ONLY in the approx 1000 square feet of UNSHELTERED patio space. Can you imagine how un-fun that is? I bet you can't. This is me a few hundred times a night: "Sir, please smoke on the other side of the yellow line. (Yes, I know that its horribly cold and windy and rainy and there is no protection from the elements over there and there isn't even enough room to stand there...but I have to say it anyway.) Last Saturday, after losing our starting center to a season ending fractured patella, I could be heard shouting to the crowd, "Whoever is smoking weed, could you please just put it out so I don't have to do something about it!?" ...Satisfyingly, everyone around was pleased with that way of handling it.

Thanks for the support man. Don't worry I aint gonna go back to smoking. Not after 11 months of being able to breathe again. I was just so upset. I don't know why I said that. My romance with tobacco is over.

It's not just 25 bucks though. To do my job I'd have to rack up about 600 of those citations a day. Thats if I could be legally cited which I can not. I say this under the advisement of an attorney. That FAQ is not legally binding.

 

[Vocalek]

If you live in VA, please go to this thread and respond. Thanks!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...dents-virginia-please-respond.html#post879912