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Cannabis Forum

Discussion in 'General Cannabis Discussion' started by Misty, Sep 10, 2019.

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  1. stratus.vaping

    stratus.vaping Super Member ECF Veteran

    lol yes, there's so much money to be made in growing street weed and so much demand, what's the point in lacing it with anything? Fake news

    I used to grow, many decades ago. Hemp family has virtually zero pests so pesticide is very very rarely used.

    Herbicide also very rare, most street crop ( and Swiss grown CBD flower) is indoor grown so there's no need. Hemp for CBD extract/fibre production grows fast and covers the ground quickly and is so tall weeds do not grow. Unless it's certificated organic anything is possible however.

    Fake news for the above points is everywhere. However, poorly ventilated indoor illegal crops are prone to fungus so fungicide can be used. Nasty.. but they are grown with so much chemical fertileser and additives that it's nasty anyway!
     
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  2. DJ Colonel Corn

    DJ Colonel Corn The Vapor Ninja Verified Member ECF Veteran

    [​IMG]
    Let me FIRST give a big RIGHT ON to ECF Forum for opening up a cannabis forum !

    Wow, I can't believe I can type cannabis and marijuana on ECF and not get censored ! :thumbs:

    So, I have been vaping cannabis concentrates since 2012. I have never seen or heard of vitamin E being used in concentrates before. This has all come as horrible, shocking news. :shock:

    I only tried cartridges beginning in 2016, however did not care for them much, as they often failed, and did not give a proper delivery of my medicine.

    So, apparently, when concentrates are made improperly, it's a very thin runny oil, and consumers know now that thicker oils are higher quality. So, these folks, who are being questioned as I write this, added vitamin E to their concentrate to thicken it.

    So about 300 are sick, and there have been 6 deaths as of this post.
    Can I remind people that tobacco killed 33K people this month in the US alone ?
    Booze killed 7K this month, not counting vehicular fatalities.
    Just like with the failed opiate war, they are going to be making bans on cannabis products, and nicotine vapes. Also, like the opiate war, a 'crisis' is being blown completely out of proportion. :-x

    [​IMG]
    It seems clear what this administration wants, they want us to be buying State-taxed booze and tobacco.

    Out here in California, they purchased bonds based on tobacco futures about 20 years back, and now have to repay the loan. With far less smokers, they can't. So they've raised the taxes on tobacco bringing packs to approximately $13. Don't think for a second they did that to curb smoking.

    I should add here that many cannabis users vape cannabis as part of their freedom from tobacco.
    Yes, it actually helps people stay off the stinkies, by combating the reasons people smoke such as anxiety, etc., and the oral action.

    The solution ?
    For yourselves, do not buy unlicensed cannabis products. If you do, make SURE you know the process and ingredients before you vape. Know your medicine. This is, after all, a medicinal product. Long before legalization, all of this was under the auspices of medical treatment. I still view it that way, even though it is now legal for 'recreational' use in our state.

    I see no reason why a cannabis based discussion should be banned on ECF, I've always been kinda put off by how even the cannabis-related words were censored/banned. I think we've all had enough with 'bans' honestly.

    In the interest of education, I share this site with you. It's all about vaping cannabis, with loads of good information (not to detract or fork off this thread, I say the more info on ECF the better), it's been online for many years, and is a great resource.

    For that matter, Reddit is also a good source for information regarding cannabis vaping.

    However, even though these sites exist, I believe we need to make a firm statement here on ECF, with a clear position, and open/frank discussion, regarding cannabis.

    Thanks to the MODS :thumb: for creating this thread.
    I look forward to seeing it grow ! :pop:



    [​IMG]

     
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  3. Toronnah

    Toronnah Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 10, 2012
    Canada
    This thread is crying for a Trailer Park Boys meme...

    But I'm going to take the high road, with Steve French.
     
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  4. Misty

    Misty Forum Admin
    Supplier/Commercial Manager
    Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Nov 16, 2008
    Canada
    Thread moved to the Cannabis Vaping Forum
     
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  5. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight CF Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    I really do apologize if I'm blowing the black market flower part of it out of proportion. Maybe I've given in to a bit of the fearmongering myself. Hard not to sometimes. All I know is I'm quite a nervous wreck about all of this. I'm really sorry if I've spread misinformation about what's going around on the street. And I guess it's easy for me to say "don't ever use it" when I'm a short drive from a licensed supplier.

    Was just talking with my closest friend last night about this. He lives in TN and uses it medically to combat serious health issues. He's pretty connected to the underground market in his city, and says it's rare he can even find flower these days - it's all carts. It's been that way for close to a year now, but only recently he's been getting carts that seemed "off" to him. Now, he knows what real carts are like because he was up here in the Summer and got one from a dispensary. He says the stuff going around right now tastes off, feels off, and made him very sick recently.

    In light of the situation, he went to a doctor a few days ago. He was coughing excessively and feeling terrible. He was checked out and told he was fine, but he stopped vaping the carts right away. Told me that the dealer he knows best can't unload a single cart at the moment. Nobody will buy it. He's searching everywhere for flower, but having a hell of a time finding it. The stuff is very, very illegal down there, so it's difficult to make new connections, especially when you're incredibly sick and don't get out much.

    So he's stopped cannabis cold-turkey. He feels awful. I was actually crying last night. He has no access to the one thing that helps him go about his daily life. I'm sure he'll find a new connection, perhaps a grower etc, sometime soon but this is what the war on cannabis looks like.

    I guess at this point in time in some parts of the country, unless you find a grower or someone who knows one further up the chain, the carts are the main thing going around. Makes sense. Easier to smuggle. Easier to hide.

    ETA he says people are going nuts about e-cigs down there. People throwing their e-cigs out due to fear-mongering. Vape shops preparing to close. This is crazy.
     
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  6. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    The spread of adulterated THC cartridges has topped off the campaign to undermine ecigs.

    No amount of retractions could ever break the link to those deaths in the public's mind. Few if any retractions will be published as the truth trickles out.

    The current health crisis will eventually spawn a new generation of better tested THC cartridges, safer for all. The only consequence is more smokers continuing to smoke and destroy their health. Oh yeah, more new young smokers too.
     
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  7. AttyPops

    AttyPops Yeah, I type stuff. ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Not if BT continues it's "Smoke Free Future" campaign. The shared goal, long term, is to eliminate smoking while being nic dealers. Right?

    I suppose you could argue, a GYO approach. But even for the green, it's mostly pods now.

    Smoking will be soooo 3rd world soon. Watch.
     
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  8. Rob B.

    Rob B. Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    What I'm hoping for is a ton of lawsuits flung at the US Govt. for their mishandling of the situation and misinformation they have spewed as a result their mishandling. They should be made liable for the all people who medically need the THC, all the people who go back to smoking, all the companies that close down, and all the people that lose their jobs. Hell, the govt. should be stepping up, taking responsibility, and making all this right. This is a tragedy of epic proportions with epic consequences looming on the horizon. Just cf13a8f9_2cents.gif
     
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  9. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    I’m somewhat surprised to see that cannabis is now a topic that can actually be talked about here. My first thought it that it’s a move to revive what seems like a slow dying forum. I truly hope it works and ECF stays afloat.


     
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  10. DJ Colonel Corn

    DJ Colonel Corn The Vapor Ninja Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Yes, well no wonder, when you have article like this from the BBC blaming e-cigs this late in the game, when most of us know what the real culprit is.
    They literally say "In the US, where the potential health risks of e-cigarettes are in the spotlight, there have been 450 reported cases of lung illness tired(sic) to vaping this year. There have also been at least six deaths across 33 states."... in an article about e-cigs.

    ... simply saying 'vaping' is scaring everyone off e-cigs, and making those that are wary or even incensed by vaping have had their platforms invigorated.

    The worst part is, those who are considering vaping as an alternative to smoking are choosing to go with 'safer' cigarettes.... the cigarettes that killed 33k people in the US alone in the past month.... this statistic is NEVER brought up when discussing the 'vaping' deaths.

    All this aside, since this is a cannabis forum, let's talk about how this is affecting cannabis users worldwide.
    Again, a great alternative to smoking flower is now going to be avoided due to fears exacerbated by the media.
    Vaping concentrates allows a cannabis user to avoid SMOKE, which is what causes lung disease. The hot smoke. In this vein, much less material, particulates, etc., are inhaled with vaping concentrates. Where a cannabis smoker would ingest 3 grams of smoked leaves, they instead ingest 0.2 grams of concentrated oils. Win win.

    [​IMG]
    P.S. Edit: Shared this thread with the FC Forum people here. If some of those good folks comment here I think we will all benefit.
     
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  11. Egzoset

    Egzoset Full Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Canada
    Salutations,

    There wasn't much contribution i could offer before i quit posting 5 years ago, neither is there a lot i can write now if it must be restricted to "vaping" e-Liquids (in opposition to "vaporizing" Dry Flowers). Yet i consider myself well informed enough on a few "Harm Reduction" issues and my very 1st point here would be to observe that this whole crisis felt quite predictible since UN's FCTC/COP6 2014 event which was held away from any criticism in Moscow/Russia... As a matter of fact, the year after my province performed some Copy 'n Paste import operation then Ontario's PM seemed inspired by it too, eventually... Today e-Cigs/Vaporizers are legally equivalent to SMOKING tobacco + nicotine + paper & glue.

    :closedeyes:

    IMO the publicity around cloud contests is finally having quite a visible echo which threatens to cause even more damage, assuming it's not too late this should raise the problem of consumption method + ritual, starting with "Micro-Dosing" and i'm not refering to further cheating via concentrates & whatnot, etc. Proper technology already existed in the late nineties, in short using Curie alloys it should be possible to "Packetize" a temporarily-stored "Heat Charge" as a function of its WorkLoad. So please allow me to use these illustrations, hoping that may help a bit:

    Egzoset's idea of some IH-Driven Heat Convertor (2019-Mar-28) [700x480] .PNG

    Specific Heat formula [300x200] .PNG

    Recently i found an On-Line IH driver calculator listing Silicon Carbide as a potential "susceptor" if rendered conductive as in "doped" semiconductors:

    UF Induction Heating Calculation Tool [256x480] .PNG

    Which i suspect might suggest direct conductive heat applications if necessary...

    The one major problem i find with cigarettes/"joints" is that these consumption formats practically invite abuse, while pulse mode scenarios significantly simplify safe materials selection in addition to multiplying opportunities to promote self-awareness. Thanks to digital IH-driving precision "Micro-Dosing" i'd only expect improved departure from the present monster cloud model (if desired at all...), then there's the rest which i'd rather leave to others as i've finally chosen to follow "The Shortest Path of Lesser Transformation" and this happens to be focussed on "bio" trichomes, home-grown and preserved from any industrial-type of processing, to take advantage of Nature's convenient (trichome glands) packaging while gaining the certainty it's all free of pesticides ("legal" or otherwise)! Which makes me wonder if anything similar like tobacco/nicotine "dry sift" also exists.

    ...

    In any case i feel convinced the "vaping" community is going to need luck just to get out of this other UN trap, hence see ya around in 2024 i guess!

    :|

    Good day, have fun!! :D
     
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  12. evan le'garde

    evan le'garde Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 3, 2013
    People who use Cannabis for recreational use, depending on how much they use, have nothing to show for the money they spend at the end of the day. This is a more serious issue for the younger generation to take note of. I'm not talking about those who "experiment", i'm talking about people who's social lives revolve around Cannabis use. Cannabis is far from cheap !. It is also psychologically addictive. Cannabis use may not be a harmful substance, but it could still ruin your life. Instead of doing something sensible with income like saving for a car, paying a mortgage, nice clothes, electronics etc (the list is endless), all a Cannabis users income could potentially go up in smoke. And where will they be in 10 or 20 years time. Broke as a joke, dressed like a throwback burnout from the sixties. But they'll still teach their broke kids that Cannabis is harmless, yeah right ! .......



    So discuss and debate the positives all you want.

    The cost of cannabis is the real problem. No amount of discussion is going to change that !.
     
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  13. evan le'garde

    evan le'garde Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 3, 2013
    So then you get the wiseguys who buy in bulk thinking they're playing it smart and getting a good deal spending £180 for an ounce rather than spending £280 buy buying grammes or "eighths" at a time. Completely ignoring the fact that they just dropped a rather significant amount of money on..... well absolutely nothing at the end of the day. But they'll keep doing it because it's a lot cheaper. :facepalm:. Boneheads !.
     
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  14. Egzoset

    Egzoset Full Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Canada
    Salutations Evan le'garde,

    In hope my reply was even expected at all.

    For all i can tell cannabis ain't directly inducing economical stress combined to marginal consumption profiles, actually i didn't refer to "Harm Reduction" aspects in vain considering those external "vilifying" factors have been on my radar for quite some long time now.

    Today's high cost of "legal" (SQdC) mari-caca in my province is totally artificial (*) and yet that's one negative repercussion which can still be tamed down, starting with a switch from SMOKING to VAPORIZING.

    Another man-made "problem" can be visualized promptly with this graph originating from Leafly, as i recall:

    Animation for 2-to-1 THC vs CBD Ratio .GiF

    In days when CBD and even THC were unheard of it only proved natural for breeders to favour THC-centric genetic selections, then arrived Québec's Pharmacy Act of 1890 followed by a whole suite of similar mis-guided 3rd party interventions reflecting Victorian-age values.

    Further criminalization boosted the THC-centric drive while it conveniently contributed to the "fidelization" of vulnerable consumers already dealing with primitive consumption methods popularized by the invention of a rolling paper machine by James Albert Bonsack during that very same era.

    It turns out long after it's become common knowledge that THC and CBD moderate each other the United Nations & World Health Organization finally published a joint document on CBD in mid-December 2017, as i recall. Yet, even now CBD Cannabis is being vilified in Commonwealth countries, 1st reclassified as novel "Frankenstein" food in Vienna/Austria, home of the UN if i'm not mistaking, etc.

    My point being that despite Canada's "Légaleezation" i just was unable to find 2:1, 3:1 or even 4:1 (THC:CBD) at the government's "legal" store after asking for it very specifically. In other words the THC-centric market never shifted away from extreme cannabinoïd spectrums, e.g. despite a conclusion which started to make echoes more recently: that it wouldn't be such a bad idea if alternative products could be offered with some CBD amount included.

    Meanwhile this doesn't mean we can't develop viable replacement solutions at all, like to separate the "Release" and "Transport" phases from a final "Activation" one - which is something impossible using slow/steady (thermostatic) Hot Dry Air Ovenizers, not even the pricey Volcano! Pulse Heating, on another hand, appears to allow "Release/Transport" with a variable degree of "Activation" (possibly for anti-inflamatory applications), not to mention secondary (post-vaporization) heating as in the Sublimator of Enrico Bouchard certainly sounds appealing as well, because the finer microscopic "vapour" would no longer stay trapped inside our lungs - which is likely to increase bioavailability in this specific context.

    In retrospective it belongs to adults to change the world around then so that rolling paper inventories plumet and eventually disapear, though this shall require some honest fairplay dealing with all inhalation models, in respect of the individual persons. Otherwise it's nothing but more Prohibition and little was accomplished so far despite a few billions spent over militarized police, drones, 4-seasons vehicles. Etc., etc.

    My proposal is to give adults an opportunity they can't want to reject, then the statistically-elusive children of planet Itnoc shall be "saved" in a durable fashion, eventually. Meanwhile young legally-vulnerable minors continue to be improperly initiated to cannabis using consumption methods which actually promote abuse possibly even leading to behavioral disorder - still exposed to a THC-centric market, for the sake of a failed socio-toxic ideology. Now lets talk about ruins:


    Though i don't suppose this present post was particularily helpful anyway.

    Good day, have fun!! :cool:
     
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  15. ScottP

    ScottP Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 9, 2013
    Houston, TX
    While I am not and never will be any sort of user or promoter of THC products, the same could be said of alcohol, nicotine, or even caffeine based products. I know people with far more expensive Starbucks habits and they are just as addicted. What do these people have to show for their money? The wife and I were spending in excess of $300/mo on cigarettes and we know people that spend more than that. All that money up in smoke. There are also plenty of people that spend hundreds per month on alcohol. Again pure waste of money. I don't want to know how much I personally spent on alcohol in my late teens and early to mid 20's. What did I get for that cash?

    My point is that while I totally agree with you that recreational use can be a huge waste of money (just another reason, I won't do it), cannabis is hardly alone in that space. Not to mention MANY young people are buying into more than one of these products and probably quite a few buying into ALL of these products (THC, Alcohol, Nicotine, and Caffeine).

    As for me, I am here not for recreation but b/c I am only in my mid-40's and my joints are already making it painful to walk upstairs to my home office for work every day. Especially in the winter months. At some point I am going to have to pay a monthly fee just to be able to move. That may come in the form of pharmaceuticals or in the form of cannaboids but either way I know that cost is coming....soon. I just want to gather as much knowledge as I can for when that time comes. At that point I know what I will be getting for my money....mobility.
     
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  16. kates

    kates Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 20, 2014
    United Kingdom
    I've been thinking a lot about how I feel about the introduction of this forum (sorry long post).

    I'm in the UK and until this recent spate of illnesses/ deaths related to vaping – all of the mainstream media reports, research etc. has been about vaping with e-cigarettes and nicotine based liquid. Vaping with THC was not really on my radar – I was aware vaguely of dry herb vapourising but really hadn't equated this in any way with vaping as I knew it (and so hadn't kept up with developments). I am horrified by what is happening in the US and think it will impact us all, wherever we live. The UK may be more accepting of nicotine-based vaping (for now) - but a lot of the reporting of this issue frankly ranges from uninformed to simply shocking - they are not properly reporting on the black market THC cartridges and warning against them (the only possible market in the UK as THC is illegal), they are not distinguishing between the flavour in ecigs bans & deaths etc.. This is not just a US fight - we should all be challenging our media/ government etc as much as possible.

    Vaping nicotine based liquid has always been primarily about harm reduction. When I first started (nearly 7 years ago) there were clear safety warnings within the community (which continue) – keep liquids away from children, don't drink, wash off hands is spill, don't vape oil, be aware of battery safety etc. I personally was concerned, at first, that I might be 'jumping out of the frying pan into the fire' and ECF helped allay these fears and increased my knowledge massively. Regarding the liquid itself – all the ingredients that are traditionally used are oil free and relatively cheap. The amount of nicotine is a small percentage and there is no reason (other than ignorance ) that anyone should use oil as a substitute for any of the ingredients. Also, as many vape shops were started by people who had used it to give up cigarettes themselves – I think safety and harm reduction have been a priority (obviously not referring to tobacco companies jumping on the bandwagon). Clearly a profit is also wanted - but adulterating the cheap, commonly used ingredients for the black market isn't going to increase profits.

    THC (and CBD) liquid seems to be a different thing altogether. Vaping is used as a more effective form of delivery not as a safer way to use cannabis. Cannabis doesn't have the same wealth of research regarding health as tobacco and doesn't have the same level of related deaths. THC is very expensive and a higher level is preferable and assumed from a thicker liquid. So diluting very expensive ingredients to a minimum and then re-thickening with a cheaper (oil based?) product to give an impression of quality, is cost effective for the black market. It is only relatively recently that it has become legal in some areas so it is a really young industry, with different equipment which will develop differently (e.g. is anyone ever going to fill a 3 ml+ tank with THC liquid given the cost?), different raw materials & suspension liquids, and and a different purpose/ set of challenges.

    I see one as a harm reduction alternative for a universally, legally available product which kills a lot of people worldwide - the other is an alternative method of delivery for a product relating to 'well being', pain management etc. which may prove to be more effective (and may or may not be legal depending on where you live). There may be an overlap in the method of delivery (and some users may vape both nicotine and cannabis based products) but surely they have a different battle to fight in terms of availability, acceptance, research, challenging current thinking etc. Therefore it is important to acknowledge and distinguish these differences – otherwise the waters are muddied and the message is not clear in either area. I think both benefit from discussion, sharing of information, safety warnings etc. and have no problem with the use of cannabis - so I have no problem with it being part of the forum. I do feel it should be seen as separate and the divergences made clear.

    I personally am really interested in learning more from this forum - so I can be informed when promoting/ supporting nicotine based vaping and challenging misconceptions/ reporting etc. when those differences are not identified. (I will, in any discussions/ complaints etc. be using the terms 'nicotine-based vaping' and 'cannabis-based vaping' from now on). I also support it as a resource for those who do vape cannabis products to be able to find out how to best do that safely and effectively.
     
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  17. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight CF Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    Hi Kates, thank you for your very thoughtful post. Welcome to the new forum! I'll certainly look forward to reading future posts of yours :)

    You raise really interesting points about the THC liquid being used as simply an alternative form of consumption vs harm reduction. I'm sure that depends on the individual using it, but given the potency of the "oil" based products and the discreet nature of them I'm inclined to agree that a lot of users may be using them for non-harm-reduction-related reasons. I personally think the discreet nature is probably a major reason a lot of people would use the cartridges. I say that because of the mixed-legality in the states right now. They're considerably easier to conceal, there's little-to-no smell associated with their use, etc.

    I myself would be most interested in the THC liquid for harm-reduction, but I currently stick to flower for two reasons: 1) until more is known about their ingredients, I don't feel comfortable with them (yes, even from dispensaries - perhaps I've given into fear-mongering born of the underground, but I'm waiting to see what comes of all this) and 2) they, in particular, are very expensive (at least locally--out west, not as expensive IIRC).

    In response to previous posters: it's easy to say something is expensive and a waste of time and money, but that can be said of any recreational substance. This life is short and I enjoy cannabis, so I use it in moderation to enjoy this life a little bit more. I spent way more on cigarettes than I've ever spent on MJ, personally, and most people I know who drink alcohol spend more on that. It totally depends on personal consumption habits and I personally use very little. But I do agree with previous posters that MJ is too expensive, generally speaking, and for the "potheads" out there, it can be a significant money-drain. And honestly - I'm all for governments taxing it, I sincerely am and would prefer to pay tax on it any day vs buying it underground - but they're taxing it to death, and that's not an effective way to cripple the black market. On top of that, the price of flower before-tax is often high. At the end of the day though, I'm not going to judge how someone spends their resources. (quick note: I did not take any of the prior posts as inherently judgmental of, say, the level of consumption that I enjoy - I'm just adding that last statement for good measure)

    Anyway, that's my only input for this thread at the moment. Just wanted to welcome the new posters to the forum. Look forward to seeing you all around :)
     
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  18. DJ Colonel Corn

    DJ Colonel Corn The Vapor Ninja Verified Member ECF Veteran

    ... are you insinuating that vaping gives you something that cannabis does not ?

    The same argument is being made for vapers re:flavors. "It's unnecessary". What to speak of vaping on the whole. What DOES vaping e-cigs give YOU ?
    I would venture to say people vape nicotine and/or cannabis for the same reasons.
    Anxiety, ADD, boredom, desire for pleasure.
    Since when did pleasure become unnecessary ? We are not all Mr Spock (or Data, for the new generation).
    I fear that the two vaping communities, namely nicotine and cannabis, are not seeing eye-to-eye when they really should be.
    As Sloth says,

    Or activity.
    Or entertainment.
    We don't live simply bcuz its 'necessary'. Are our lives even so necessary in this world ?
     
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  19. evan le'garde

    evan le'garde Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 3, 2013
    I think if i were ever considering growing weed on a large scale, if it were ever legalized here in the UK, i definitely invest in an array of solar panels, a lot of them !. That, would certainly bring the cost right down in the long term.

    Is anyone doing that in the US ?.
     
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  20. ScottP

    ScottP Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 9, 2013
    Houston, TX
    I am not sure it would. I priced a Solar system a few years back, and the amount of energy it would produce over the lifespan of the system divided by the total cost of the system (including replacing the batteries every few years as necessary) was roughly equal to the cost of buying electricity from the power company over the same number of years. So in essence there wasn't any real savings, it was just paying for all your electricity upfront (or via payments to the solar company for the cost of the system).

    Now it is possible that systems have gotten cheaper since then or more efficient so this may not be how it is now.
     
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