Cannabis Forum

[Egzoset]

Salutations Faygeleh,

...mj is already kosher...

Actually it appears to depend on the consumption method and purpose. Anyway i previously explained that this incident refers to Hydropothecary having to issue "recalls" over Dry Flower products apparently tainted with levels of myclobutanil actually not permissible as per the official Health Canada list of "pesticides". Although those mini-scandals didn't properly echo via mass media (while H.-C. remained contemplative...) it still happens that this LP conveniently chose to change its name to Hexo in August 2018, e.g. nearly a year after promissing "kosher" grade; my point being that such gesture was just another strategic decoy inviting further confusion in the 1st place, most especially addressed to an unsuspecting (non-jew) population i figured:

[ https:// www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/kosher-medical-marijuana-gatineau-hydropothecary-1.4297996 ]
CBC: Kosher designation for Gatineau pot products arrives in time for High Holidays (2017-Sep-20)

Medical products are eligible for kosher certification, the rabbi said, but marijuana for recreational use, expected to be made legal next year, may not qualify for kosher designation.

...

[ https:// www.timesofisrael.com/medical-marijuana-gets-kosher-okay-in-canada/ ]
TOi: Medical marijuana gets kosher okay in Canada (2017-Sep-25)

In 2016, Montreal kosher certifiers said medicinal pot needed kosher certification because it is ingested, while certifiers in Toronto said it didn’t because it is being used as medicine. ​

So, in retrospective some statements were made to the effect that "kashrut certification" simply doesn't even apply to smoking, while other sources completed by arguing against the "unnatural lust" associated with "recreative" cannabis inhalation. In any case i concluded Hexo's reference to kosher had little relevant ground except as an opportunist effort intended to induce some vague impression of "purity" in the public eye.

Which i consider double shocking knowing that heat turns this most particular fungicide into HCN which vegetal smoking itself contributes to mask:

[ https:// www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2017/03/clarification_fromhealthcanadaonmyclobutanilandcannabis.html ]
Clarification from Health Canada on myclobutanil and cannabis (2019-Mar-9)

When the cannabis plant is combusted, a number of compounds are produced, including very low amounts of hydrogen cyanide. Health Canada's analysis of the recalled cannabis products show that the trace levels of myclobutanil that were present would have produced a negligible amount of additional hydrogen cyanide upon combustion, in comparison to the levels already produced by marijuana alone.​

In other words it's only resonable to suspect that this was a deceiving exercise trying to excuse such LP's need for fumigation (...), which i believe was a primary application of Zyklon before it was adopted for use in a genocide.

Good day, have fun!!

 

[faygeleh]

there have been a number of rulings about the permissibly of smoking going back to the vilna goan s disapproval of the bal shem tovs pipe smoking(whatever was in it). there's plenty of perspectives on drug use as well. marijuana is a plant and it's kosher regardless of whether or not ou puts their stamp on it.

yes i am aware of combustible cigarettes/mj have amounts of cyanide as a byproduct. myclobutanil is used and a fungicide and seems to be in prevalent use despitebeing banned. this is a public health concern. obviously the LP isn't spraying the crops but there could be more oversight on the growers.

i don't log on to ecf to talk about kz horrors, dude. have a nice weekend too.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Here's how to solve health concerns about vaping: legalize cannabis | Opinion

"Almost all reports surrounding people becoming ill (and some dying) specify how illicitly sourced, THC-infused vaporizer cartridges were used prior to the onset of the illness. The attention at the moment seems to be focused on working to rid the marketplace of "flavored" nicotine-based vaporizer products—which have not been linked to deaths.

Of course, it's a problem that more and more teenagers are using nicotine vapes. But let's not use tragic deaths and illnesses related to illegal cannabis products to push forward with unrelated policy decisions. Legalizing and regulating cannabis, not banning certain nicotine products, is the only way out of this growing public safety problem."

"Until every adult in America enjoys the freedom to purchase regulated cannabis products, the negative effects of the illegal cannabis marketplace will continue to seep into our communities in unexpected ways."

 

[AttyPops]

Here's how to solve health concerns about vaping: legalize cannabis | Opinion

It's already legal here, and we have had incidents.

The street junk is cheaper. Of course, they just cut it with Vit-E-a.
They also probably sell to under-age people, so....

There have been 'voices' for a long time saying that a legal market, particularly if heavily taxed, will just create a larger black market.

That guy's article starts off with a fallacy, and ends by stating his credentials (and bias). Although I'm for legalization and regulation of quality/age-use, I'm not naive enough to think this will solve the problem like magic.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

It's already legal here, and we have had incidents.

The street junk is cheaper. Of course, they just cut it with Vit-E-a.
They also probably sell to under-age people, so....

There have been 'voices' for a long time saying that a legal market, particularly if heavily taxed, will just create a larger black market.

I don't fully disagree with you, but I do fully agree with the article. Of course it wouldn't completely stop the black market, particularly if it's taxed too much. But to suggest that it would make the black market bigger is just wrong, IMO. I only know a handful of people who would rather pay less for potentially dangerous products.

The stuff is being taxed way too much and of course there have been illnesses in legal states. I wonder how many of those are underage, to be honest--do we have that data yet? But the point is that in non-legal states, there is no alternative to the black market. Providing a legal avenue for safer products is in everybody's best interest.

I didn't interpret the article as saying it's a magic bullet. Just the sanest way to combat the underground market.

 

[AttyPops]

I didn't interpret the article as saying it's a magic bullet.

Well, the title basically did.

But OK, as long as you, a reasonable person, makes that distinction...then maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit.

That's actually why I voted for legalization here....that and the decriminalization effect to the justice system.

 

[zoiDman]

Here's how to solve health concerns about vaping: legalize cannabis | Opinion

"Almost all reports surrounding people becoming ill (and some dying) specify how illicitly sourced, THC-infused vaporizer cartridges were used prior to the onset of the illness. The attention at the moment seems to be focused on working to rid the marketplace of "flavored" nicotine-based vaporizer products—which have not been linked to deaths.

Of course, it's a problem that more and more teenagers are using nicotine vapes. But let's not use tragic deaths and illnesses related to illegal cannabis products to push forward with unrelated policy decisions. Legalizing and regulating cannabis, not banning certain nicotine products, is the only way out of this growing public safety problem."

"Until every adult in America enjoys the freedom to purchase regulated cannabis products, the negative effects of the illegal cannabis marketplace will continue to seep into our communities in unexpected ways."

JMO...

But the Article you Posted is a Good Example of where someone can Believe that an Ideal is Right and or Just. But it Doesn't fully take into account just what Happens when that Ideal is Implemented.

Not say'n that something Should or Shouldn't be Done when it comes to Legalization. That decision should be Weighed by individuals after reviewing as many Pro's and Con's as possible.

And I major Consideration, as Atty mentioned, is that Regulated and Taxed THC products are Much More Expensive that Black Market alternatives.

So if Adam Smith's invisible hand steers the Market, is that the Direction we want to Go?

And if it is, then Don't we have to Except that some amount of People getting Sick using "Street Carts" is just part of the Market that We Created?

And that seems to be a Far Different Question/Reality than what the Author of the linked article is portraying.

 

[Izan]

IMO, the only solution is "decriminalization".
I do not and will not support the legalization of Cannabis.

It is a plant.
Should the products of cannabis be regulated? Sure, like caffeine and sugar and nicotine or most other plant products.
But as a private citizen, I can grow, possess and consume as much sugar cane, tea or tobacco as I like.


Cheers
I

 

[Sloth Tonight]

@Izan I'm unclear on what you're saying. You're saying no to legalization, but that cannabis "products" should be regulated. But - they can't be regulated unless they're also legalized. Decriminalization doesn't enable regulation. Just curious as to what you're saying.

@zoiDman I get where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree that the legal market created this issue we're seeing today (this may not be a proper inference from your post, but I'm throwing it out there), but I would agree that black market dealers are benefiting from the new variety of products and being able to pass off product as though it were from legitimate dispensaries. Those "West Coast" cartridges listed above are all over my area, and one of my friends thought they were from CA dispensaries (nope).

@AttyPops called me "a reasonable person" -





At the end of the day, hate to say it, we may never stop these issues. The cat's out of the bag. We can blame any number of factors for it and it's a super intriguing conversation. But unfortunately we may never fully stop it from happening. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument that nationwide legalization wouldn't help the situation by providing legal avenues to obtain safer products.

As an aside, I wonder if cost would go down eventually once it's fully legal. I'm not sure. Would be interesting to find data about alcohol pricing pre-and-post prohibition.

 

[zoiDman]

@Izan...

@zoiDman I get where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree that the legal market created this issue we're seeing today (this may not be a proper inference from your post, but I'm throwing it out there), but I would agree that black market dealers are benefiting from the new variety of products and being able to pass off product as though it were from legitimate dispensaries. Those "West Coast" cartridges listed above are all over my area, and one of my friends thought they were from CA dispensaries (nope).

...

I agree. Legalized Markets Didn't create the THC Illness Problem. Because people have been put Junk "Cut" in Drugs since about Day One.

But what it did was Exponentially Increase the Problem.

Because Now we have all a Means to obtain all the Items Needed to do a black market Start-Up easily Available. And a Manufacturing Pipeline from Grower to those Filling Carts is in place.

Like I said, I'm not going to take a Stand on legalization One Way or Another.

But when the Issue comes up, wouldn't a Reasonable Person want to at least consider All the Ramifications of creating a New Market in a State?

And that was Why that article caught my eye. Because I Don't think the Author did. And if He has, why were they Presented?

 

[440BB]

As nationwide legalization is the only way I see to set national testing standards for labs, I support it. Although California's regulations seem to have kept the Vitamin E issue out of their dispensaries, other states have different testing standards and that has led to adulterated cartridges being sold by them at times. In my local case it appears the Vitamin E may have been introduced with the terpenes added to state-approved cartridges in some cases. This smaller amount, maybe only a couple percent, may not cause immediate issues but accumulate over time to cause great harm.

I'm very concerned that the lack of consistency from state to state makes the statement that it's only "street" cartridges a dangerous license to assume all dispensary cartridges are safe. Not the case everywhere and not worth the risk at this time IMO, at least in Michigan.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

I agree. Legalized Markets Didn't create the THC Illness Problem. Because people have been put Junk "Cut" in Drugs since about Day One.

But what it did was Exponentially Increase the Problem.

Because Now we have all a Means to obtain all the Items Needed to do a black market Start-Up easily Available. And a Manufacturing Pipeline from Grower to those Filling Carts is in place.

Like I said, I'm not going to take a Stand on legalization One Way or Another.

But when the Issue comes up, wouldn't a Reasonable Person want to at least consider All the Ramifications of creating a New Market in a State?

And that was Why that article caught my eye. Because I Don't think the Author did. And if He has, why were they Presented?

I agree with everything you said here. But the issue is that the market is already in every state, legal or not. It's just underground in most of them. Bringing it above ground at least provides an avenue for safer products. People will be buying it either way.

@440BB yeah, this is why I'm not touching the one cartridge I've got. It's from a dispensary and I assume it's safe, but until I know for a fact that it's been thoroughly tested specifically for whatever winds up being the cause of these problems, I'm not trusting it.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree with everything you said here. But the issue is that the market is already in every state, legal or not. It's just underground in most of them. Bringing it above ground at least provides an avenue for safer products. People will be buying it either way.

...

Sure.

But given a Price Differential like what is Seen below...

This is what happens when Pin Headed Regulators see things as a Cash Cow...

A lab-tested medical marijuana vape [THC] cartridge that typically costs $40-$60 in California can run up to $165 in a New York City dispensary. That’s ten times the price of an illicit vape cart.

That price gap has created a thriving illegal industry selling carts through NYC’s clandestine delivery services, at pop-up cannabis markets, and in some corner bodegas.

Journey of a Tainted Vape Cartridge: From China’s Labs to Your Lungs

... And Don't consider the Ramifications of Overzealous Tax/Regulatory Costs.

BTW - Wouldn't this thread be Better placed in the Cannabis Sub-Forum?

... the issue of where people will buy a Product is not a Mutually Exclusive question.

The Question is How Many will pay Regulated/Taxed priced products? And How Many will pay Un-Regulated/Un-Taxed priced products?

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Sure.

But given a Price Differential like what is Seen below...



... the issue of where people will buy a Product is not a Mutually Exclusive question.

The Question is How Many will pay Regulated/Taxed priced products? And How Many will pay Un-Regulated/Un-Taxed priced products?

I hear you loud and clear. But the $165 price in NY is not for a recreational product, it's for medical - and NY's medical program is abysmal. WAY overpriced, poorly implemented. It's not a good medical MJ system in this state. The $40-$60 in CA is the rec side of things (and perhaps their medical costs that as well, IDK).

They are $55-$60 in MA on the rec side. They're going for $40 on the black market in upstate NY as I understand it.

I don't have the answer to how many will pay for legit products, but when I look at the income these dispensaries are taking in, it's clearly a lot of people. And the main thing is that people in the legal states have the choice. What they do with the choice is up to them, and that's the best we as a society can offer, IMO. Freedom of choice. Safer avenue available.

Like I said I don't think there's a true solution - it's unfortunate but particularly with these liquid products, there's probably going to be issues no matter what.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Like I said I don't think there's a true solution - it's unfortunate but particularly with these liquid products, there's probably going to be issues no matter what.

I think that is Something that we All can Agree on.

 

[Rob B.]

Sure.

But given a Price Differential like what is Seen below...



... the issue of where people will buy a Product is not a Mutually Exclusive question.

The Question is How Many will pay Regulated/Taxed priced products? And How Many will pay Un-Regulated/Un-Taxed priced products?

I totally agree that there will be

that will buy the cheapest, no matter what the overall cost and consequences.....But I am also willing to bet that regulated legalization will make a lot of people feel better and willing to pay more for a safe product. I know many people that feel that way. So, while a black market will always exist, many people will appreciate the safety of a legally, regulated system. The govt. and parents have to figure out a way to protect the youths without penalizing the adults. BTW....I'm 59 and I like flavors

 

[zoiDman]

I totally agree that there will be View attachment 841585 that will buy the cheapest, no matter what the overall cost and consequences.....But I am also willing to bet that regulated legalization will make a lot of people feel better and willing to pay more for a safe product. I know many people that feel that way. So, while a black market will always exist, many people will appreciate the safety of a legally, regulated system. The govt. and parents have to figure out a way to protect the youths without penalizing the adults. BTW....I'm 59 and I like flavors

Like I said earlier.

I Don't think Anyone is Disputing any of what you said. Because it Isn't an Either/Or Situation.

But what makes Policy Decisions so Incredible Hard, at the Population Level, is what Percentages are considered "Good"? What Percentages are "Acceptable"? And what Percentages are considered "Bad".

Many People are Uncomfortable considering the Concept that there can be an Acceptable Number of Illnesses and Deaths from Black Market Use if we make a Change to a Market. Let alone to be so Heartless as to Quantify it.

But that is Exactly what a Policy Maker's responsibility is.

 

[Rob B.]

Like I said earlier.

I Don't think Anyone is Disputing any of what you said. Because it Isn't an Either/Or Situation.

But what makes Policy Decisions so Incredible Hard, at the Population Level, is what Percentages are considered "Good"? What Percentages are "Acceptable"? And what Percentages are considered "Bad".

Many People are Uncomfortable considering the Concept that there can be an Acceptable Number of Illnesses and Deaths from Black Market Use if we make a Change to a Market. Let alone to be so Heartless as to Quantify it.

But that is Exactly what a Policy Maker's responsibility is.

Agree with you. Shoot, they do it with cigarettes, liquor, and pharma. Bring on the regulation and let natural selection do its job...

 

[zoiDman]

Agree with you. Shoot, they do it with cigarettes, liquor, and pharma. Bring on the regulation and let natural selection do its job...

And that is what is So Monumentally Hypocritical about how Policy Makers want to view e-Cigarettes.

It is Acceptable that we have the Youth/Teen Smoking Rates that we Do. And there is No Hysteria sweeping the Media about an "Epidemic".

Because Policy Makers know that they can Never 100% Eliminate Youth/Teen Smoking. So they set a Baseline Percentage and as long is Rates Don't Rise above the Baseline, everything is Honky Dory.

But Youth/Teen use Hasn't stayed the same. It has Gone Down.

The Problem is it was Because of e-Cigarettes.

So Policy Makers chuck everything they have Known and Done about Smoking Baselines and Magically pull out their Hats that somehow we can Stamp Out e-Cigarettes use for those we Don't want. All we have to do is Ban Flavors and it's Miller Time!

The Same Parallel(s) can be Made with the THC Market.

Heavy Handed Regulations and Sky High Taxes sound like a Great Way to "Clean Up" the Market. And to Ensure the Public gets a "Safe" product. And that States get a Big Slice of THC Profits.

And all we have to is Turn a Blind Eye to the Fact that it will Promote a BIGGER Black Market.

And to Make it Board Line comical... One of the Biggest Blind Eye Turner's is New York State/City.

I guess History isn't Relevant when it comes to something like Excessive Taxes and the Promotion of the Black Market. But Maybe it Should be?

Because if it Was, maybe Articles like this wouldn't happen...

High taxes and limited enforcement have New York City awash in illegal booze and cigarettes

 

[Sloth Tonight]

And all we have to is Turn a Blind Eye to the Fact that it will Promote a BIGGER Black Market.

Now, did alcohol prohibition's repeal create a bigger black market? Nationwide?

Because I don't see any truth to the claim that repealing MJ prohibition would create a bigger black market. Am I mistaken? Can you point me to any sources that show that the black market for alcohol grew bigger upon legalization? Is there any proof of this assumption? I'm asking with genuine interest.

I get the point re: NYC but not everywhere is going to tax it like NYC will.

Green Gold: Theory Wellness Banks $17 Million In First Six Months Selling Pot In Berkshires

Seventeen million dollars is a lot of money. Money that went to a legit business that employs 130 people at that location alone (and is currently expanding). And I read in a local newspaper that they're cutting a check to the town for around one million in tax revenue.

^I don't see how the black market could have gotten bigger in MA when that much money is being spent on legal products.

As an aside, Theory has said that roughly 50% of its income is from New Yorkers. In the newspaper article I read, the financial director of the company urged people to not get used to that kind of revenue, because once NY legalizes, their profits could be cut in half.

I thoroughly understand that high taxes lead to a black market. That should be part of the discussion re: legalization. You'll hear no argument from me that they're taxing it way too much. But bigger black market is quite the assumption considering 100% of the proceeds in 40 states go to the black market right now. 100% of them.

ETA definitely must admit, after reading that article you posted, I had no idea the black market for cigs specifically was that big of a thing in NYC.