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Cannabis Forum

Discussion in 'General Cannabis Discussion' started by Misty, Sep 10, 2019.

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  1. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    It Didn't.

    Because Reasonable Regulations were Implemented. But Critically, because Reasonable Taxes were invoked. Not just Then. Buy over the Years.

    There have been Enough clear thinkers that when some Extreme Alcohol Tax Bill has come to the Table, that Everything I have said in my last Couple of Posts has Far Outweighed the Udder Milkers.

    But those Days are Gone. Forever.

    In Today's era, where the Mentality that Leveraging your MSA Payments for 35 Cents on the Dollar is a Sound Fiscal Policy, when People like Me bring up the Issues that I have in State Budget meetings, we are Shouted Down. Or we Don't Exist.

    The Games are On. And I've Tivo-ed Up enough so I can Skip thru the Commercials.

    But I'll say this in Closing...

    The Dominate Factors (some will say the Only Real Factors) to How Large a Black Market is are Legality and Product Price.

    If you make Something Legal, but the Product Price is Much Higher than on the Black Market, don't Wonder why things Become what they Become.

    :)
     
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  2. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight CF Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    10-4. I get it. I would sure hope for sensible taxation, but ... it certainly isn't currently sensible in most (if not all) places where it's legal. I'm still thinking it's impossible to make it bigger than it currently is in places where it's not legal at all. And I see no evidence that the black market has gotten bigger in places where it's legal. I'm open to that evidence, though, if it comes along. (ETA - to any extent the black market has grown in legal states, I would presume it's largely for the purpose of exporting product to illegal states - as I've certainly heard of some grow-ops with that in mind)

    Thanks for the info and the article you posted re: alcohol/cigs in NYC. What a trip :facepalm:
     
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  3. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    This is Pretty Late in coming.

    But our friend Scott does make the Necessary Points.

     
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  4. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    BTW - Scott has been about the 1st Person to mention that out of the 15% or so people who have said that they Only use a Nicotine e-Cigarette that they might not be Admitting to using THC.

    A Very Salient Point. And something the CDC has Refused to Mention.

    Because it has allowed them to Keep the Door Open to their e-Cigarette FUD Campaign against Nicotine Harm Reduction.
     
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  5. Tabac man

    Tabac man Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 24, 2019
    London
    FUD?
     
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  6. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
     
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  7. Izan

    Izan Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 1, 2012
    Mallorca, Spain
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  8. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
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  9. Tabac man

    Tabac man Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 24, 2019
    London
    Fud?

    Sorry. I just like saying it. Fud.
     
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  10. Ceejay0875

    Ceejay0875 Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 24, 2016
    I had to look this up the other day. Honestly, even still every time I see FUD, my mind says it as F :censored:d Up Dilemma...
     
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  11. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
  12. Woofer

    Woofer Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 8, 2014
    PA, SK, CA
    Pretty sad when a board member of Pfizer is the voice of reason. :eek:
     
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  13. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    At this point, I'm just glad that Someone is stepping up and Telling the Truth.

    Because... " Midnight lonely whisper cries, 'we're getting a bit short on heroes lately' ".
     
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  14. Rossum

    Rossum "Chump" Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    NE FL
    Why do you think it's worse? If a person is so inclined, they can go to a legitimate purveyor where the chances of the adulterated product are close to nil. If it wasn't legal, that option wouldn't exist.

    Then ask yourself why the "informal market" remains larger than the above-board market? Could it be for the same sorts reason that the "informal market" for cigarettes is bigger in NYC than the legitimate market? ;)
     
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  15. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Don't need to Ask myself. Because Both you and I know the Answer(s).

    A Legalized Market could work. And it could Provide all the Promises that have been Promised in Ballot Initiatives. But as long as we have the Crop of Politicians like who Control California, it won't.

    Sometimes I wonder if California is taking it's Ques from NY? Or the Other way around? Or maybe they are Both Cut from the Same Cloth?

    BTW - I like that term "Informal Market".

    It puts a Friendly twist onto what Normally would be the Seedy Underbelly of the Black Market.

    LOL
     
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  16. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight CF Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    Those illegal dispensaries need to be shut down. There's more to this than just high taxes (which are outrageous and certainly a major factor). CA needs to get it's act together because those unlicensed dispensaries are not just supplying Californians - they're also supplying people like this: Wisconsin Brothers Charged in Massive Counterfeit THC Vape Cartridge Operation

    "They also discovered videos he posted on August 28th of him flying first-class to California; he’d brought along a suitcase loaded with $300,000 in cash with plans to buy 40 to 50 jars of THC oil.

    Jacob Huffhines told police that he traveled with his brother to California to purchase the THC oil, Kenosha News reports."

    These are the guys who were busted in Wisconsin recently for, among other things, "...approximately 31,200 vape cartridges filled with one gram of THC concentrate each, approximately 98,000 unfilled vape cartridges, 57 mason jars filled with 1,616 ounces of refined liquid THC, roughly 18 pounds of marijuana, three money-counting machines, thousands of empty vape cartridge boxes with packaging, and various drug paraphernalia."

    To my knowledge there's been no mention as to whether or not they were cutting these cartridges with stuff like vitamin E acetate, but I'd be surprised if they weren't cutting with something bad. Also I haven't read anywhere that specifically states he was purchasing from the illegal dispensaries, but I think that's a given considering that the legal businesses have purchase limits and it would raise red flags were he going back day after day to purchase the legal limit over and over again. Another indication that this stuff was supplied by the black market is the price he turned around to sell for. I'd also be surprised if the illegal businesses are selling non-adulterated liquids to begin with, but IDK.

    I'm not actually sure, but I figure that LA had some "gray market" dispensaries in-place before legalization. I know Vancouver, BC did. As such, that gray market may have been well established already. Is that true, zoidman (I'm asking since you lived in SoCal, just curious if you're aware of what that looked like prior to 2018)? At any rate, come on CA, shut them down. And lower your taxes ffs :facepalm: even just 1-2% tax on top of sales tax would bring in a lot of revenue for the state. Greedy desert rats. (no offense to desert rats, I kind of am one despite living in a boreal forest)
     
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  17. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    As I said earlier in this Thread, I'm not really a TCH user.

    But I know some people who are. And they have said Many Times how CA has turned into the Wild, Wild West after Prop. 64 passed. Even they are Kinda Disgusted by it.

    Every City/Town in America has a Black Market in some form or another. And you can Find just about any Drug you want if you are Know Someone who Knows Someone.

    LA was No Different in Pre 2018. But what was Different is that things had to be Done on the "Down Low". Because it Was Illegal. And Distribution Pipelines were all Illegal.

    But when Prop 64 passed, a Different Mandate was issued to Many Law Enforcement Agencies. And that was to Go Easy. And if Minors were Not Involved, looking the other way Wasn't the end of the world.

    Jerry Brown had pushed this the Entire Time he was Governor. Now many said that they had a Referendum from the Voters.

    And since the THC is basically an Entirely Cash Driven Market, it was Next to Impossible for "Legal" Pot Shops to be held accountable. So what you got was Legal shops Vastly Under-Declaring sales. Like $1 out of $3 or $1 out of $4 under-reported. Which, of course, lead to Tax Revenues being a Fraction of what was Projected.

    To make things Worse (but not a very big surprise) those Projected Tax Revenues had already been Spent. So Regulating THC was harder because Budgeted Money wasn't pouring in like what was supposed to Happen.

    And, of course, Enterprising Black Marketeers saw how they could Now operate with virtual Impunity. With legal Distribution in place, it wasn't hard to Undercut "Legal" Pot prices. Which, of course, they Did.

    So the Illegal Market Exploded.

    All the while, Many Politicians (and Weed Advocates) saw this Happening. But No One wanted to Raise a Hand because they were the Ones who Pushed for it. And they were the ones who were supposed to Regulate it. And they were the Ones who were supposed to Make Sure this Didn't Happen. So they just Didn't Say/Do anything.

    Legalizing Pot Didn't create the Black Market in LA or in California. There was one in place just like in Every City/State.

    What it Did was NORMALize the Black Market. And it put Everything in Place for Large Scale Illegal Sales to Flourish by providing the Same Product (sans Vitamin E) at a Cheaper Price.

    In a Way it was just Capitalism.
     
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  18. mackman

    mackman Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2013
    NorCal
  19. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    This is Economics 101 of the Black Market.

    "Why would manufacturers want to cut THC oil? The same reason they’d cut any street drug: to make more money. Thanks to the math of cutting, a vape cart maker could spend $50 to produce $4,800 in revenue. How? Hackett explains:

    Take a liter of bulk THC oil—it’s pricey at $6,000. Now increase its volume by 30% with vitamin E oil (300 ml for $50). As long as no one notices, you now have 1,300 mls of THC oil worth $7,800, having spent just $50.

    Furthermore, retail markup magnifies the profits of cutting. Each 1-gram street cart retails for $16. (A licensed, regulated, and tested cannabis oil vape cart in a legal adult-use state like California or Washington typically retails for $40 to $60.) So $16,000 in uncut oil becomes $20,800 in cut oil. You just made almost $5,000 extra dollars by adding $50 worth of invisible poison to the mix."


    Journey of a tainted vape cartridge: from China’s labs to your lungs
     
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  20. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight CF Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: In Response to Two Deaths Due to Marijuana Vaping, Oregon Health Department Recommends Ban on Nicotine-Containing Electronic Cigarettes

    Can't tell that it's proven to be the case but it looks like some dispensaries in Oregon may be selling vape cartridges that have vitamin E acetate (or something else that's bad for you) as well. And I think the same may be true in at least one other state.

    So here we have California, a regulatory mess enabling illegal dispensaries to thrive and probably sell in bulk to out-of-state traffickers, then we have Oregon and perhaps other states, presumably lacking in basic safety regulations/proper testing for their extracts...

    I'm optimistic for the future of cannabis, but the current landscape is just a mess :facepalm:

    I do wonder why on earth a legitimate business would be adding this garbage into their vape liquid, if they are. Why do it at all? It makes perfect sense for the black market, but what the heck? Is it possible that the very extract itself is harmful? But then, people have been making their own extracts for quite a long time and vaping them - and legal vape cartridges have been on the market in Colorado, etc for years without issue...

    I'm confused. And going to bed. :sleep:
     
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