CDC Finally Saying Stop Vaping THC

[Mazinny]

So you don't feel that banning ALL flavors except the tobacco ones that nobody wants isn't effectively shutting down vaping in Michigan?

And that the CDC's conflation of all vaporization products and technologies into a single entity (yes they did, even if not explicitly) is not the teeth behind this action?

No, I don't find the CDC behind flavor bans. That's the FDA. The CDC is not a regulatory agency. They are investigating the vaping lung disease outbreaks, which have nothing to do with flavors. If the politicians and the general public are conflating the kiddie issue and the health crisis, that's on them, not the CDC. The CDC has no obligation to comment on flavors, unless some chemicals in the flavors are causing health issues.

I watched the congressional hearings carefully. Every time the lady from the CDC was asked about flavor bans, she immediately deferred to the acting head of the FDA.

 

[zelda]

Back when I joined the forum there were discussions about using the term e-cigarette instead of vaping. The reasoning being that vaping included other substances besides nicotine. And the forum owner wanted to keep vaping nicotine as separate. A bit ironic now.

Charlie Baker had an hour meeting with 7 pulmonologists, addiction specialists and pediatricians on a Friday and banned vaping 4 days later.

 

[gsmit1]

No, I don't find the CDC behind flavor bans. That's the FDA. The CDC is not a regulatory agency. They are investigating the vaping lung disease outbreaks, which have nothing to do with flavors. If the politicians and the general public are conflating the kiddie issue and the health crisis, that's on them, not the CDC. The CDC has no obligation to comment on flavors, unless some chemicals in the flavors are causing health issues.

I watched the congressional hearings carefully. Every time the lady from the CDC was asked about flavor bans, she immediately deferred to the acting head of the FDA.

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

 

[bombastinator]

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

Oooh! Oooh! *waves hand*

same thing it’s been since I started vaping. The BT marketing arm. There has been false and misleading stuff going out for a looong time. Or do you mean something different with your question?

 

[Mazinny]

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

Wow, that's a difficult question to answer. I'm gonna have to sleep on it, but I will definitely give an answer tomorrow night, even if it's to say "It's too complicated. I can't be sure!"

I just want to point out, that I understand the anger in the vape community .... I'm angry too. But in this thread, I'm mainly commenting on the CDC, and as a rule (not just vaping), I would like the CDC to err on the side of caution. I don't want them to rule anything out, unless they are absolutely 100% certain.

 

[stols001]

Greed. Greed. More greed People trafficking on the misfortunes of others. Mostly greed.
Anna

 

[Katya]

I believe the patient has to give permission for drug testing.

Just for the record--doctors run routine urine tests for illicit drugs (THC, opioids, ......., etc.) all the time. They don't need permission. However, any patient can refuse any test and any treatment at any time--if they do they are being discharged AMA (against medical advice).

 

[Katya]

We are moving closer to an Orwellian future. Agreed.

Is it Orwell or Alice in Wonderland? I really can't tell anymore.

But I was trying to talk to Tweety ( @Katya ) about a specific epidemiological approach, specific to the CDC's statements.

Right. Let's just agree to politely disagree, you have your take on CDC's handling of the situation, I have mine. I'm just surprised that you make such a strong distinction between CDC and all the other "3-letter" organizations. Besides, this is not the first time CDC has made a mess of things. Remember Ebola?

Ebola: Five ways the CDC got it wrong - CNN

U.S. CDC head criticized for blaming 'protocol breach' as nurse gets Ebola

CDC is also a 3-letter organization.

 

[Katya]

My brother in law, who smoked all his life, has stage 3 (close to end stage) COPD.

I'm so sorry about your brother. Have him read this:

[Full text] Health effects in COPD smokers who switch to electronic cigarettes: a | COPD

Also, does he know that he can get all the nic he wants from vaping without inhaling as most of nic absorption from e-liquids occurs through oral mucosa? You may try explaining it to him if he's still worried about his lungs. Tell him to vape like he would smoke a pipe or a cigar--just hold the vapor in his mouth for a while and exhale, preferably (but not necessarily) through his nose.

 

[Opinionated]

I'm so sorry about your brother. Have him read this:

[Full text] Health effects in COPD smokers who switch to electronic cigarettes: a | COPD

Also, does he know that he can get all the nic he wants from vaping without inhaling as most of nic absorption from e-liquids occurs through oral mucosa? You may try explaining it to him if he's still worried about his lungs. Tell him to vape like he would smoke a pipe or a cigar--just hold the vapor in his mouth for a while and exhale, preferably (but not necessarily) through his nose.

He may not know that so I'll mention it next time I see him. I was more taken aback when he was here but he is likely well past listening.. well past listening was the definite vibe I got when I tried talking to him about it.

 

[Katya]

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

My take? "They" are puritanical control freaks and want to run the whole healthcare show by themselves. They need to be in charge and decide what's good for us and what isn't (and to benefit from it financially). "They" have invented and approved several smoking cessation and harm-reduction products but all/most of them turned out useless or not very effective. Gums, patches, lozenges, nicotine inhalers (Nicotrol--that's a real nasty one)--nope. Every one of us has here tried most of them, I'm sure.

And then one day Mr. Hon Lik has the nerve to take the matters into his own hands and create the first successful e-cigarette. Smokers all over the world rejoice and vaping becomes a thing. Smokers vape, they quit smoking, and they are having fun to boot. The inmates are running the asylum. Well, "they" can't tolerate it. "They" are not in charge anymore and "they" are losing revenue--big time. And "they" are sore because "they" completely missed the vaping boat even though "they" had the patent(s).

If you haven't already--read the history of e-cigarettes. It's eye-opening.

Historical Timeline of Electronic Cigarettes - CASAA

 

[Baditude]

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

Look up the resume's of the leaders of the FDA and CDC. The vast majority of them have worked with Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, or both over the years. All one tight, greedy and corrupt happy family. You rub my hand, I'll rub yours.

Dr. Brenda Fitzgerald, C.D.C. Director, Resigns Over Tobacco and Other Investments

Big Tobacco has been losing profits for the last decade due chiefly to the popularity and effectiveness of electronic cigarettes. Due to the tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, that means the government is losing money, too. Bond loans that the government took out on expected future income from the MSA that hasn't materialized are past due. Government and BT conspire on how to increase profits like they had 10 years ago: Get rid of the new guy on the block--->e-cigarettes.

E-cigarettes are also in direct competition to Big Pharma. Nicorette is manufactured by McNeil Consumer Healthcare company, a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson. GlaxoSmithKline is the licence holder of Nicorette gum in the United States while Johnson & Johnson markets Nicorette globally. Pfizer owns Chantix, a prescription-only psychotropic drug marketed to help stop smoking.

E-cigs 'twice as effective' than nicotine patches, gum or sprays for quitting​

FDA: Anti-smoking drug Chantix linked to more than 500 suicides​

Chantix blamed for 3,063 serious injuries and 78 deaths​

All of these executives stand to profit if e-cigarettes are removed from the market. They are not stupid. They have done research, and know how important flavors are to the industry. I can't say whether JUUL was a willing participant or not, but it appears JUUL marketed their product to young adults, and its high nicotine delivery system appealed to youth to be abused for a "nic high". So flavors and a nic high being popular for the youth vaping epidemic became the key factors to have an excuse to ban e-cigs.

The vape company Juul said it doesn’t target teens. Its early ads tell a different story.​

Juul Replaces Its C.E.O. With a Tobacco Executive​

How convenient (?) for these people that black market THC vials put 800 youth in the hospital and 11 died. That was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Media fear mongering, politicians taking advantage of a political agenda, the CDC dragging its feet on publicising the facts gave the politicians additional time to draw up flavor or e-cigarette bans to protect our youth from themselves.

Also how convenient that the FDA approves another tobacco product at this time, the IQOS.

FDA allows sale of new electronic tobacco product​

The CEO of Altria/ Phillip Morris, whose company markets the IQOS, admits in this video the Deeming Regulations were designed to favor the large tobacco companies and not the small ecig manufacturers because of the costs involved to get approval from the FDA.




This all seems like too much to be just coincidence to me. It's like all these bad actors orchestrated the plot of a Robin Cook medical thriller and made it into a Master Plan to eliminate e-cigarettes so they could corner the market.

Keeping my tin foil hat on.

 

[DarrenMG]

Hypothetical question, but now that there is some good indication that vaporizing vitamin E acetate is harmful, probably because it leaves behind an oil coating that builds up in the lungs, I am wondering if there are any other nicotine e-liquids out there, intended to be a safe product, that have been flavored with other oily substances that leave a harmful coating in the lungs?

I ask because I see there are many companies selling 'essential' oils, intended to be used as food flavoring, typically candy flavors such as peppermint, some listed as water soluble, some not. I am no chemist and that doesn't tell me much, but I can see the temptation to use these types of products as flavoring in e-liquids. The concern being do any of these flavorings leave behind a coating in the lungs, because that sure doesn't sound healthy, especially if vaped often? Just because it's safe to eat, that doesn't mean a tasty oil based flavor is safe to vaporize and inhale. Now I am not saying there is a real concern, just that is the kind of thing it would be good if the CDC could determine in the course of their research and investigation.

 

[englishmick]

Just for the record--doctors run routine urine tests for illicit drugs (THC, opioids, ......., etc.) all the time. They don't need permission. However, any patient can refuse any test and any treatment at any time--if they do they are being discharged AMA (against medical advice).

Gotcha. My experience of HIPA comes from having worked in group homes years ago. The rules there were very strict, maybe because they were dealing with dependent adults and kids. I didn't work with the residents and still had to take courses. Just getting them a flu shot or giving them a Tylenol meant jumping through hoops. A drug test would have needed 20 signoffs. I guess it's different for regular patients.

Some of the current patients are underage or unable to make decisions themselves. If I was a parent, given the legal implications I would say no to drug testing unless I had a cast iron guarantee that the information would never leave the doctor's office. No way I would allow government agencies to have that information. I don't trust them.

 

[stols001]

You can refuse medical tests if you KNOW about them. When I went for a follow up with this really dopey (and deaf) vet doctor one time like, he tested me for Hep C (do not ask me) and proudly told me it was "negative." My response was, "Why would you possibly test me for that? Of course I am." Also, he proudly told me he tested me for some rheumatoid factor and I would not get arthritis until I was 95 or something. Okay fine, but what if he had said 55.

I mean, I had the lab slip and all but it was a bunch of codes. So, IDK caveat emptor.

I'm not a big fan of drug testing period, not unless there is suspicion of use at work or something like you are impaired. I am probably not alone in this but life goes on nonetheless. IDK about the THC vapers. It's kind of a public health issue. I'm less opposed, but I don't know how much difference that it will make, other that the CDC will have info that it does NOT know how to handle or what to do with. I highly doubt they will find the "vector" of the contaminated cartridges but you never know..

Anna

 

[englishmick]

I understand that there are multiple entities at play here, but what do you feel is the driving motivation behind all this. In general?

My feeling is that there's a zoo of different motivations. Money, control freaks and social engineers, ignorance, political vote counting, career interests, all the way down to some bureaucrat whose uncle had a neighbor who swallowed a drip tip. Good intentions and bad intentions. On reflection it's probably a waste of energy trying to analyse what drives them.

 

[englishmick]

You can refuse medical tests if you KNOW about them.

That's an interesting point. I have no idea what they can just do and what they have to ask permission to do.

 

[AttyPops]

I am wondering if there are any other nicotine e-liquids out there, intended to be a safe product, that have been flavored with other oily substances that leave a harmful coating in the lungs?

I ask because I see there are many companies selling 'essential' oils, intended to be used as food flavoring, typically candy flavors such as peppermint, some listed as water soluble, some not.

The e-cig industry uses water soluble stuff. Or is suppsed to. There's entire forums, here and elsewhere, dedicated to trying to filter out "bad stuff" in an admittedly less than scientific way, while still providing flavors.

"oils" are also a term in the candy industry, and the body lotion/fragrance industry, but they aren't necessarily lipids.

So it's hard to tell. I'd go with trusted e-cig vendors. I too had concerns about "essential oil" vapes, when I went looking for vaping alternatives recently. It's vaping, but it's "just" a different juice. But what?

Maybe we should try crystals and homeopathy?
(I crack me up sometimes)

 

[bombastinator]

I can give you what I remember. What I have is a collection of things I remember from reading other people’s posts here. Everything I say was said by someone else earlier, perhaps years past. Consider my replies an anecdotal gestalt. There are things I’ve forgotten.

Hypothetical question, but now that there is some good indication that vaporizing vitamin E acetate is harmful, probably because it leaves behind an oil coating that builds up in the lungs

iirc vitamin E by itself can be toxic in high enough doses. Perhaps two problems at once

, I am wondering if there are any other nicotine e-liquids out there, intended to be a safe product, that have been flavored with other oily substances that leave a harmful coating in the lungs?

some time ago there was a big scare about a chemical Called diacetyl which is a member of a family of chemicals called dyketones. This created a move by the FDA known locally as “the great deeming”. In it all manufacturers were required to submit recipients and samples of each of their products and have them tested for safety. Selling premixed juice that was not deeming tested became illegal. There was massive complaining around here but it happened. Several juice manufacturers disappeared without a trace but many did not. I am not a juice manufacturer so I do not know the exact requirements of the deeming. Considering the attitude about lipid pneumonia at the time my suspicion is that any commercial deeming compliant juice is probably free of such things. I have no data myself. It is likely around here somewhere though. This place is vast.

I ask because I see there are many companies selling 'essential' oils, intended to be used as food flavoring, typically candy flavors such as peppermint, some listed as water soluble, some not.

this is a known problem. Not all food flavorings are considered safe for vaping. There is a shortage of specific testing for flavorings in general. There is a food safety test for baking in which flavorings have to maintain chemical integrity and remain safe above 450f. It does not preclude lipids though (lipids are the problem and fats, oils, and waxes are made of lipids). The general opinion around here was that any flavoring use in e-cigarettes has to pass that test AND Be oil free. This would preclude the use of essential oils completely. The attitude of e-cigarette users here is possibly extremist. There may be a non damaging level of lipids that can exist in ejuice. It being unknown popularly here though, the low extreme is generally sought.

I am no chemist and that doesn't tell me much, but I can see the temptation to use these types of products as flavoring in e-liquids.

historically it was. The deeming did a lot to change that.

The concern being do any of these flavorings leave behind a coating in the lungs, because that sure doesn't sound healthy, especially if vaped often? Just because it's safe to eat, that doesn't mean a tasty oil based flavor is safe to vaporize and inhale. Now I am not saying there is a real concern, just that is the kind of thing it would be good if the CDC could determine in the course of their research and investigation.

I have to talked to some people who have dealt with CDC research for other issues in the past. Apparently their methodology has some weaknesses. (There basically have to be some somewhere for anything) For one it tends to be slow, and for another there is a tendency towards standardization that does not make allowance for unusual cases and presentations. It’s quite statistical and methodical. Not sure that is bad in this case myself. I mention them because the people I talked to did.

 

[DarrenMG]

Thanks @bombastinator and @AttyPops.

I agree very much others here who have written in various threads, it is possible that there is more then one cause at play in the recent reports of lung illness, that we shouldn't assume there is only the one (the black market THC cart cause). It's also possible about 30% of the kids are not telling the truth, but I suppose it's also possible some recent e-liquids that are being sold have used flavorings that have harmful oils (or something else). There are so many e-juice manufacturers now, it is hard to know which are legit.

I guess we will see, but I am content with the CDC needing time to investigate.