CDC Finally Saying Stop Vaping THC

[AttyPops]

Yeah, but the last one, the one that the CDC is involved with, is the one that really turned the tide against us. Without any illness or death, much of the public had a live-and-let live attitude toward vaping. That has now changed.

Heck, it even has a few old-time vapers wondering whether they should try to quit.

I think that's a leap, but you're entitled to your opinions.

So far, most bans are 'flavor bans'. And the PMTA stuff predates this outbreak.

I'm one of the first ones to put on my tin foil hat and cry conspiracy...you've read the posts. But I don't see the epidemiologists as being willing accomplices in that. Unwilling due to timing, maybe. But that's different.

 

[AttyPops]

CDC Intensifies Warnings About Vaping Illness As Cases Top 1,000

What she's saying is that with the data she has, she can't be certain.

That type of thing is what I expect from an unemotional no-agenda Dr. that is trying to pin things down and get the data.

Of course we can all play armchair epidemiologist and debate if they're doing it correctly and debate what language they use. I choose to read it in context.

Anyone with brains, including her, would LIKE to say "it's all THC/CBD related"...but she can't assume that given the data she has, even if some of it isn't correct OR if there really is a smattering of problems on the nic-side of vaping.

 

[Rossum]

So far, most bans are 'flavor bans'. And the PMTA stuff predates this outbreak.

Yes, but the flavor bans and coming PMTA requirements are now going to have a much higher "approval rating" from the general public than they would have otherwise.

I'm one of the first ones to put on my tin foil hat and cry conspiracy...you've read the posts. But I don't see the epidemiologists as being willing accomplices in that. Unwilling due to timing, maybe. But that's different.

I'm not implying any kind of conspiracy beyond the fact that the CDC has never liked vaping at all and thus is pre-disposed to use this mess as a means of casting doubt on our nicotine vapes.

 

[Rossum]

CDC Intensifies Warnings About Vaping Illness As Cases Top 1,000

One thing she says is completely incorrect:

"It is pretty much impossible for you to know what is in the e-cigarette or vaping product that you're getting.."

Some of us know exactly what's in our vapes.

 

[Mazinny]

One thing she says is completely incorrect: "It is pretty much impossible for you to know what is in the e-cigarette or vaping product that you're getting.."

Some of us know exactly what's in our vapes.

The vast majority don't though. What percentage of vapers do you think DIY unflavored?

 

[zoiDman]

I'm not implying any kind of conspiracy beyond the fact that the CDC has never liked vaping at all and thus is pre-disposed to use this mess as a means of casting doubt on our nicotine vapes.

You Nailed it Rossum.

Because we Haven't had a CDC Director that considers e-Cigarette use to be Viable THR going all the way back to Tom Frieden.

 

[Rossum]

The vast majority don't though. What percentage of vapers do you think DIY unflavored?

Actually anyone who produces e-liquid for commercial sale in the US was supposed to have registered each product with the FDA back in 2017. Requirements for registration included a complete list of ingredients. So the buyer may not know exactly what's in a Mango flavored Juul pod, or HHV's Tuscan Cocoa, but the FDA does.

 

[AttyPops]

One thing she says is completely incorrect:

"It is pretty much impossible for you to know what is in the e-cigarette or vaping product that you're getting.."

Some of us know exactly what's in our vapes.

You know me, I have to argue.

So do you have a gas chromatograph of the lot #'s for the PG/VG that you're using? Or other detailed analysis? I know I don't.
I think I have access to one for the nic base (I last ordered from Nude Nicotine and they publish them. But I just tried to look on their site and it's not linking me to test results...I get "what to do if the FDA shows up" page. Funny, sort of. )

 

[Mazinny]

Actually anyone who produces e-liquid for commercial sale in the US was supposed to have registered each product with the FDA back in 2017. Requirements for registration included a complete list of ingredients. So the buyer may not know exactly what's in a Mango flavored Juul pod, or HHV's
Tuscan Cocoa, but the FDA does.

Fair enough, but according to Dmitry, the vast majority of eliquid makers didn't do that, and their product is still being sold on the market.

 

[AttyPops]

The vast majority don't though. What percentage of vapers do you think DIY unflavored?

Actually anyone who produces e-liquid for commercial sale in the US was supposed to have registered each product with the FDA back in 2017. Requirements for registration included a complete list of ingredients. So the buyer may not know exactly what's in a Mango flavored Juul pod, or HHV's
Tuscan Cocoa, but the FDA does.

None of that matters if there's an unintended contaminant in any one of the ingredients. Logically.
Not saying there is. But the CDC says they can't pin it down. Which, at this point, is frustrating to everyone on all sides, but there you go.

I still think that, if I had to bet, that it's all on the THC/CBD side, but I sure as hell wouldn't SAY that if I were them unless I could prove it.

 

[Blitzdonlife]

Vitamin E acetate, also known as tocopherol acetate, already had warnings for inhalation attached to it. I'm still looking into what effects this would have on our lungs. Here is an MSDS I found on a google search.

alpha-Tocopherol acetate

This is on that page.

11.2.1First Aid
New Window
EYES: First check the victim for contact lenses and remove if present. Flush victim's eyes with water or normal saline solution for 20 to 30 minutes while simultaneously calling a hospital or poison control center. Do not put any ointments, oils, or medication in the victim's eyes without specific instructions from a physician. IMMEDIATELY transport the victim after flushing eyes to a hospital even if no symptoms (such as redness or irritation) develop. SKIN: IMMEDIATELY flood affected skin with water while removing and isolating all contaminated clothing. Gently wash all affected skin areas thoroughly with soap and water. If symptoms such as redness or irritation develop, IMMEDIATELY call a physician and be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital for treatment. INHALATION: IMMEDIATELY leave the contaminated area; take deep breaths of fresh air. If symptoms (such as wheezing, coughing, shortness of breath, or burning in the mouth, throat, or chest) develop, call a physician and be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital. Provide proper respiratory protection to rescuers entering an unknown atmosphere. Whenever possible, Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) should be used; if not available, use a level of protection greater than or equal to that advised under Protective Clothing. INGESTION: DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. If the victim is conscious and not convulsing, give 1 or 2 glasses of water to dilute the chemical and IMMEDIATELY call a hospital or poison control center. Be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital if advised by a physician. If the victim is convulsing or unconscious, do not give anything by mouth, ensure that the victim's airway is open and lay the victim on his/her side with the head lower than the body. DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. IMMEDIATELY transport the victim to a hospital. (NTP, 1992)

National Toxicology Program, Institute of Environmental HealthSciences, National Institutes of Health (NTP). 1992. NationalToxicology Program Chemical Repository Database. ResearchTriangle Park, North Carolina.

The question I am trying to answer is, would vitamin E acetate damage in human lungs look like chemical burns? Chemical burns in the lungs are what the CDC is finding right now in relation to the vaping crisis, it seems a pertinent question to ask.

I'm sure the answer is out there already, google-fu experts weigh in? My google-fu is not at your level.

 

[zoiDman]

Just talking out loud...

Say that a Retail e-Liquid did cause someone to get sick. Wouldn't there be a Very Good Chance that there would be some Traceability? Like a Partially Full Bottle? Maybe even with Batch Code on it?

At the Very Least, wouldn't the Person who got sick be able to provide a List of the e-Liquids that they have Purchased? Like from their Credit Card Statement?

And then Couldn't those Purchases be Cross Referenced to others who have Purchase the Same e-Liquids/Batch Codes via the Retailers Sales Records?

This has been Going on for awhile. And it Isn't like the FDA needs a Court Order or a Warrant to obtain Records from a Tobacco Retailer. All they have to do is Walk in and say they want to see what they Want to See.

 

[Rossum]

You know me, I have to argue.

So do you have a gas chromatograph of the lot #'s for the PG/VG that you're using? Or other detailed analysis? I know I don't.

No, I don't, except for the one time I bought PG and VG from NN (along with some nic). Those each came with a COA.

But I don't test (or expect a COA for) the sugar I put in my coffee either, nor for any of the other numerous products I consume. I'm just not worried about PG or VG from a well known, reputable source.

 

[gsmit1]

"Youth vaping crisis"

The CDC JUST started saying that? "Youth vaping crisis" has been the hysterical cry forever. Tell me that your governor went out and conducted an investigation himself that put those words on his lips and he didn't get it from the CDC. Who is constantly cited in all the news stories as well.

 

[Tabac man]

The question I am trying to answer is, would vitamin E acetate damage in human lungs look like chemical burns? Chemical burns in the lungs are what the CDC is finding right now in relation to the vaping crisis, it seems a pertinent question to ask.

I'm sure the answer is out there already, google-fu experts weigh in? My google-fu is not at your level.

The Mayo Clinic say they found damage consistent with chemical burns and no evidence of lipod pneumonia, in 17 biopsy's. CDC say they (Mayo Clinic) used the wrong procedures, making Lipods undetectable.

 

[Mazinny]

The Mayo Clinic say they found damage consistent with chemical burns and no evidence of lipod pneumonia, in 17 biopsy's. CDC say they (Mayo Clinic) used the wrong procedures, making Lipods undetectable.

Michael Siegel, one of the Public Health academics actually on our side, suspects the same:

Although the study authors opine that the pathological findings are not indicative of exogenous lipoid pneumonia, the basis for this conclusion is not clear. The authors' assertion seems to be based primarily on their failure to find "coalescent of lipid into large droplets." However, there are many previous reports of exogenous lipoid pneumonia in which the pathology examination did not report finding a coalescence of lipid into large droplets in the lung. The main finding in these previous studies (example) was the presence of lipid-laden macrophages, just as the primary finding in the current study was the presence of foamy (lipid-laden) macrophages. The radiographic findings in many of the cases and the finding of lipid-laden macrophages are consistent with a diagnosis of lipoid pneumonia in at least some of the observed cases. I think it is premature to rule out the significance of the inhalation of large quantities of viscous oil in the pathogenesis of the disease.

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: New Mayo Clinic Study Further Implicates Contaminated THC Oils in Respiratory Disease Outbreaks and Refutes Claim that Store-Bought Nicotine E-Liquids are Involved

 

[bombastinator]

The vast majority don't though. What percentage of vapers do you think DIY unflavored?

It’s also untrue in that the contents of commercial e-cigarette juices are already heavily regulated and have been for years. What IS impossible is to know what you’re getting when you buy illegal stuff.

There seems to be a concerted effort to ignore the difference between e-cigarettes and cannabis vapes, and to ignore the existence of the FDA deeming.

 

[f1vefour]

I can tell you from experience the Mayo clinic isn't infallible, they were sent various biopsies of my sons tissue for diagnosis and they kept coming back inconclusive. Once he was operated on the doctor found he has stage 4 large b-cell Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

 

[AttyPops]

But I don't test (or expect a COA for) the sugar I put in my coffee either, nor for any of the other numerous products I consume. I'm just not worried about PG or VG from a well known, reputable source.

That's exactly the CDC's point too, because they used the word "contaminant". So if sugar gets contaminated, it's contaminated. Same with lettuce. Same with VG or PG.

Basically they are telling us (as I read it) that there's no way to know what's in your juice.

And further, if you take it to another level, there's no way to know what's in any "recipe".

But if you live in Flint (and probably several other cities), you didn't know what was in your water either. Don't get me going on PFAS.

But really, all you know is that someone is selling "WildCrazyGrape-Supposedly-CBD-maybe-THC" dude.
And even for nic vaping "WildCrazyGrape 13 mg/ml 50/50" doesn't tell you much when you consider contaminants.

 

[AttyPops]

The CDC JUST started saying that? "Youth vaping crisis" has been the hysterical cry forever. Tell me that your governor went out and conducted an investigation himself that put those words on his lips and he didn't get it from the CDC. Who is constantly cited in all the news stories as well.

Moving the goal posts.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you're complaining about the way the CDC is working their statement on the "vaping illness outbreak" then you can't deflect to Queen Whitmer's executive-edict. Unless you're referring to cdc statements that pre-date her edict.

And then, that's a different discussion. Yes, I think the CDC is biased against e-cigs, but to be fair, it's the wild-wild-west in terms of "recipes" and flavors. There's literally (as in I'm not exaggerating) billions if not trillions of combinations of chemicals. True for food too, BUT we don't inhale those.