I'm talking across the board. I used the mutation x v4 as an example because it was proof that the coils made a difference in flavor. If you're going to analyze the characteristics of a flavor atty, you need to analyze everything, from design to the wicking material used in it.
RDA Characteristics of "flavor" attys
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I agree that the coils make a difference. I have the tools to make complicated wires, I just don't do it often. My favorite builds are a simple dual 22g coils around a 2mm ID. I can do the whole build in a couple of minutes. They heat up fast. They cover a large surface area. They make a lot of vapor. I can use a ton of airflow. The resistance is about as low as I want to go on a mech. And the vape is warm and delectable.
There are so many things I was going to state I lost where I was going with it after reading all this info.
I believe there are rdas out there specific to flavor chasing. Now like many have said airflow build and wick are huge on the totem pole of reaching max flavor. I've watched what Tom said about the alien claptons and when vaped it I was blown away by its flavor.
My experience so far is a smaller atty, a 24g kanthal build 6 wrap dual coil and wicking it just right I can vape at 60-65 watts and take 10-15 pulls that are all flavor with some pretty dense plumes. Just my opinion and experience there is a lot more I'm learning as I build and try different attys, wick material and let's not forget the pg/vg levels in the juice being used.
Edit, some of my best flavor has come from my subtank rba, but that's off topic just wanted to put it out there.
I believe there are rdas out there specific to flavor chasing. Now like many have said airflow build and wick are huge on the totem pole of reaching max flavor. I've watched what Tom said about the alien claptons and when vaped it I was blown away by its flavor.
My experience so far is a smaller atty, a 24g kanthal build 6 wrap dual coil and wicking it just right I can vape at 60-65 watts and take 10-15 pulls that are all flavor with some pretty dense plumes. Just my opinion and experience there is a lot more I'm learning as I build and try different attys, wick material and let's not forget the pg/vg levels in the juice being used.
Edit, some of my best flavor has come from my subtank rba, but that's off topic just wanted to put it out there.
Yea, some of them have ridiculous airflow so it wouldn't be practical for everyday use but in general smaller chamber lower wattage = good flavor, larger chamber higher wattage = good flavor. The main point is it's all about the build you can get good flavor out of pretty much any RDA it's all about selecting what's appropriate for the way you like to vape and building accordingly. Really the main thing the chamber size affects is how much power you need for good flavor. If your using a 40w mod you'll be much happier with a small chamber atty, if your using 120-200w mods you'll be much happier with a larger chamber (within reason). Unless of course you're gonna vape at 40w on your 120w mod lol
In my opinion there are a few things that make a flavour RDA:
1) Airflow from underneath the coil.
Left = side airflow
Right = undercoil airflow
blue = potentially saturated air
green = unsaturated air
Obviously the air will take the path of least resistance between the inlet (air holes) and the outlet (drip tip), so naturally if the air comes from below the coil it is impeded by the presence of the coil in it's path and has no option but to come into close proximity to the coil and become mixed with the vapour.
Airflow from the side can be as effective as bottom airflow, but it will depend heavily on coil position and air hole size (small is optimal and positioned slightly below the center of the coil - coil being as close to the side wall of RDA as possible), with large airholes there will be a mix of unsaturated air going straight through the RDA therefore reducing the vapour density.
This explains why 'flavour RDAs' are generally smaller, as it forces the airflow to be in general closer to the coils and allow for the effective transfer of vapour into the air stream. (and effective cooling of the coils)
Coils above the air inlet just makes it easier to get good flavour as they are easier to position to ensure that they are right in the path of the airflow.
2) Coil position.
As touched on above, coil position is vital to getting a dense vape. Coils need to be directly in the path of the airflow.
3) Draw VS heatflux VS Wicking
This is a user preference thing, but to get the best flavour it will basically be a function of those three factors.
If you suck like the best ...... in the state then you will want large amounts of vapour in a short space of time, which will require a hotter coil (greater heatflux) and thick enough wick to stop it drying out for the duration of the draw.
If you suck like you are sipping through a straw then you will want a longer draw, lower heatflux and wicking able to keep on feeding the coil throughout the long draw.
1) Airflow from underneath the coil.
Left = side airflow
Right = undercoil airflow
blue = potentially saturated air
green = unsaturated air
Obviously the air will take the path of least resistance between the inlet (air holes) and the outlet (drip tip), so naturally if the air comes from below the coil it is impeded by the presence of the coil in it's path and has no option but to come into close proximity to the coil and become mixed with the vapour.
Airflow from the side can be as effective as bottom airflow, but it will depend heavily on coil position and air hole size (small is optimal and positioned slightly below the center of the coil - coil being as close to the side wall of RDA as possible), with large airholes there will be a mix of unsaturated air going straight through the RDA therefore reducing the vapour density.
This explains why 'flavour RDAs' are generally smaller, as it forces the airflow to be in general closer to the coils and allow for the effective transfer of vapour into the air stream. (and effective cooling of the coils)
Coils above the air inlet just makes it easier to get good flavour as they are easier to position to ensure that they are right in the path of the airflow.
2) Coil position.
As touched on above, coil position is vital to getting a dense vape. Coils need to be directly in the path of the airflow.
3) Draw VS heatflux VS Wicking
This is a user preference thing, but to get the best flavour it will basically be a function of those three factors.
If you suck like the best ...... in the state then you will want large amounts of vapour in a short space of time, which will require a hotter coil (greater heatflux) and thick enough wick to stop it drying out for the duration of the draw.
If you suck like you are sipping through a straw then you will want a longer draw, lower heatflux and wicking able to keep on feeding the coil throughout the long draw.
This is kind of what I was talking about in my first post. The airflow directly hitting the coils resulting in more vapor to the drip tip than excess air. Now, with top airflow atty's (which are known to be good with flavor as well as bottom), the air path would be similar to that of the bottom afc rda's, but I could see how you can get more indirect air as well
This is exactly what I've been thinking. Excellent post.
This is I think what we need to get at. It's not atty size it's all airflow related and atty size can have an effect on airflow. It's definitely much more than just big/small, domed, swirled, etc. if we could model or see airflow we could make better attys and builds.
If we all pitched in together on something we could agree upon, we could find a machinist, patent & prototype it, and manufacture an atty that would be perfect for flavor and vapor production. Another thing is most atty's are concaved/domed at the top on the inside, which in turn creates a funnel to direct the vapor flow from the afc to the drip tip. The derringer is not. Most top caps are though. My question is: would increasing the pitch or angle of the concave at the topcap so it's more funneled help? I feel bottom air would be preferred, however, the afc would have to be roughly the size of the coils over it.
Bingo -- if we could visualize the airflow, we could shape the atty and the build to maximize direct flow over the coils and minimize indirect vaporless air reaching the drip tip. Your question foresees the problem -- folklore and a little common sense says a domed top cap directs the airflow to the drip tip better somehow. But does it? Nobody really knows. What is the actual effect -- again, nobody knows for sure. Bottom flow makes it much easier to direct the incoming air but also makes a sure leaker at some point. It should be possible to make a side or top airflow atty with instructions on where to place the coils that still has "optimal" airflow around the coils.
I am no where near any kind of fluid engineer so I would not know how to begin to model it or what simulation tools are out there to do so. Have to start poking around.
But . . . Maybe a transparent atty, high speed camera and air intakes connected somehow to another atty producing vapor. We could definitely make some bank with an engineered atty over most of the hype driven crap that's out there now.
This is a start.
I agree that the airhole should be the width of the coil (or slightly smaller), seems like the best way to go. Freakshow RDA (among others) employs that way of thinking as is known to be decent for flavour.
Testing of the top cap characteristics and their effect should be a relatively simple affair, that is if one is good with machining things. One could use a standard RDA and simply machine new top caps, each top cap exhibiting a different feature (flat, domed, low {reduced chamber size}, high {bigger chamber size}, etc).
Then the tester can just switch out the top cap and replace with another, the difference will be apparent due to the other factors being exactly the same (airflow, coil, juice etc).
As to your question about the funneled/pitched/domed top cap, my theory would be that it would not change things much at all as it does not interfere with the natural path of the air flow.
The changes are in the redundant areas, which either allow the air to eddy (flat) or to not (conical), so it should not make much of a difference, depending on how much of the vapour does eddy in those areas.
Diagram to illustrate natural airflow (without coils).
So again, another theory on the reduced chamber RDAs...
The reduced chamber changes the angle (green) at which the air flows, so the derringer (etc) is more forgiving in terms of coil placement than other higher chambered RDAs. Due to the airflow being closer to horizontal it means that you don't need the coils to be as close to the air inlet, just to be slightly above it.
The same effect could be achieved by having a drip tip that sits lower in the top cap (obviously not in contact with the coils or anything silly like that).
If we found out that eddying is good for generating better flavour then obviously that could be implemented but putting more obstructions along the airflow path.
These are all just my interpretations and theories, so don't feel you have to take anything on board.
These are all just my interpretations and theories, so don't feel you have to take anything on board.
Bingo -- if we could visualize the airflow, we could shape the atty and the build to maximize direct flow over the coils and minimize indirect vaporless air reaching the drip tip. Your question foresees the problem -- folklore and a little common sense says a domed top cap directs the airflow to the drip tip better somehow. But does it? Nobody really knows. What is the actual effect -- again, nobody knows for sure. Bottom flow makes it much easier to direct the incoming air but also makes a sure leaker at some point. It should be possible to make a side or top airflow atty with instructions on where to place the coils that still has "optimal" airflow around the coils.
I am no where near any kind of fluid engineer so I would not know how to begin to model it or what simulation tools are out there to do so. Have to start poking around.
But . . . Maybe a transparent atty, high speed camera and air intakes connected somehow to another atty producing vapor. We could definitely make some bank with an engineered atty over most of the hype driven crap that's out there now.
Vaporless air isn't neccesarily a bad thing, the vapor carries the eliquid so condensation doesn't occur from the vaporless air. If you notice, especially on atty's like the derringer without the domed caps etc condensation occurs all over the topcap sidewalls etc.. I think having that airflow around the vapor actually helps prevent the condensation on the walls of the atty somewhat which gets more actual vapor in your mouth instead of stuck to the walls of your atty. If the condensation is where the flavor comes from then all that condensation inside of the atty is just lost flavor.
That's a good diagram on how the air would flow, now I have an idea. In a reduced chamber, the air intake is closer to the 510, but in your illustrations, when the topcap isn't conical, there's that redundant space that's unnecessary. A concaved top cap gets rid of the empty space. Now, everyone has a different theory on where the air should be flowing from. What if instead of the regular bottom afc atty's we see today, we could come up with an airflow base that directed the airflow in on an angle from either the chamber or built into the base? Kind of like an angled slot that comes up under the coils out from the base/juice well. Not in a right angle airflow pattern like a Kennedy, freakshow, or the fishbone mentioned above, but more of a straight shot from the opening to the coils? Yes there would be leaking, but if done correctly, could have a greater effect on the flavor. What I'm picturing is taking the 2x tubes built into the base of the Kennedy and instead, tilting them on a 45° angle in the base with a flat opening at the top that rests underneath the coil. I'll sketch something to demonstrate what I mean.
or just pick an already developed atomizer that works. Somebody already has a design for nearly anything you can think of. All of these RDAs essentially do the same thing. The main differences are the way the posts are and the placement of the airflow. Since they are rebuildable, you can place the coils to take advantage of any of the airflow designs.
IMO, a good RDA needs to be easy to build. It needs to have large post holes to allow for any reasonably imaginable build idea. It needs to have adjustable airflow directly in front of the coils. A cap that locks into place with the airflow already perfectly aligned is even easier. It needs to allow dense lung hits and have a wide-bore drip top, so these low gauge coils with high power stay cool, the vapor being smooth, warm, and tasty. It needs to have a chamber and barrel design that works without causing juice to pop up or be sucked up in any way whatsoever... but no splash guard. It needs to be able to be dripped on through the top without taking anything apart. And it needs to be highly leak resistant.
I can already think of a few RDAs that meet this standard already.
IMO, a good RDA needs to be easy to build. It needs to have large post holes to allow for any reasonably imaginable build idea. It needs to have adjustable airflow directly in front of the coils. A cap that locks into place with the airflow already perfectly aligned is even easier. It needs to allow dense lung hits and have a wide-bore drip top, so these low gauge coils with high power stay cool, the vapor being smooth, warm, and tasty. It needs to have a chamber and barrel design that works without causing juice to pop up or be sucked up in any way whatsoever... but no splash guard. It needs to be able to be dripped on through the top without taking anything apart. And it needs to be highly leak resistant.
I can already think of a few RDAs that meet this standard already.
Basically what you just described is the new N22 V2 RDA... I really like the idea, but it will do what any other bottom air RDA does....leaks....
I don't know about that chamber, I run my stumpy between 80-100w and get better flavor on it than I do my velocity with the same exact build. No matter what build I put in the velocity the flavor never even comes close to anything in my stumpy.
oh yeah, and square posts work great too. Any post design that prevents the possibility of spinning posts is a plus. Some people are going to be cranking down on those screws to lock some very low gauge wire or complicated coil builds in there.
Lately I have been loving a Revolt clone that I found on eBay. It is a perfect side airflow atomizer. This is another reduced chamber, so there is really nowhere for the air to go except directly at the coils. It has a long barrel with wide bore drip tip that works perfectly. No juice spit-back whatsoever and my low resistance build is perfectly smooth, warm, and flavorful. The flavor is intense. The only thing I would change would be that it has a round center post, which I could see possibly having an issue with someday. No spinning yet, though.
Lately I have been loving a Revolt clone that I found on eBay. It is a perfect side airflow atomizer. This is another reduced chamber, so there is really nowhere for the air to go except directly at the coils. It has a long barrel with wide bore drip tip that works perfectly. No juice spit-back whatsoever and my low resistance build is perfectly smooth, warm, and flavorful. The flavor is intense. The only thing I would change would be that it has a round center post, which I could see possibly having an issue with someday. No spinning yet, though.
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