Clone Versus Authentic Discussion

[stevegmu]

Yes, they won, so there is some precedent. However it only applies because hana modz is trademarked now. Note I said vast majority do not have those protections. It is those very protections that allow Nike to take action on fakes.

That feeds into the morality argument; me saying anything but "Clones are bad" set you off to correct me. The idea behind my post was that no one is right or wrong. Also, it's a bit disingenuous to compare buying clones to buying blackmarket counterfeits. When you can only buy clone mods from shady street vendors that'll be more accurate

So making knockoffs with the brand, logos and packaging is ok, as long as one has not trademarked their name and logos?
You do know Kayfuns are trademarked, right?

SMtec GmbH is the owner of several trademarks and design protections in different markets around the world. In order to protect our customers, our partners and our company, we feel impelled to keep records on trademark infringements and to initiate legal actions against breaches without further warning. A breach is defined by using mentioned protected trademarks to advertise for and/ or the distribution of counterfeit products, as well as products using these trademarks, that have not been given permission to do so. A breach can and will be prosecuted retrospectively to the day the trademark has been filed.

In case you have a justified concern having committed a breach through no fault on your own or having bought a counterfeit product unwillingly or unintentionally or in case you want to report sales of counterfeits, please use the form down below to contact us for clarification.

SvoëMesto | Legal References

I think I will spend the rest of the day reporting US based vendors selling knockoff Kayfuns...

So where one buys the 'clones' has everything to do with legality and morality? If one gets a ...... on the street that is bad, but ok in a brothel...

 

[MrStik]

You know.. the ones who cry about clones being evil are collectors who are afraid the clone market is going to force their authentic manufacturer to not produce the next big non-innovative product that they will slap a 300 dollar price tag on because it is "new" and has different engravings from the one they put out the year before.

To be honest, I couldn't care less who gets my money, as long as most of it stays in my pocket.

 

[ErnieKim]

I think I will spend the rest of the day reporting US based vendors selling knockoff Kayfuns...
...

Preaching from the moral high ground on this topic is simply bunk, pure and simple. Over-paying hundreds of dollars for something that is sold regularly (and legally) for 1/10 the price is just plain elitist. Telling people that they have no morals and/or don't understand business rules and ethics is more of the same elitist crap. No one is buying any of it.

The makers of the insanely high-priced "authentics" are laughing all the way to the bank as simple-minded elitists wait in line on their computers to buy the next iteration so they can brag about it; unbelievable.

 

[stevegmu]

Preaching from the moral high ground on this topic is simply bunk, pure and simple. Over-paying hundreds of dollars for something that is sold regularly (and legally) for 1/10 the price is just plain elitist. Telling people that they have no morals and/or don't understand business rules and ethics is more of the same elitist crap. No one is buying any of it.

The makers of the insanely high-priced "authentics" are laughing all the way to the bank as simple-minded elitists wait in line on their computers to buy the next iteration so they can brag about it; unbelievable.

Vape gear is cheap, compared to smoking. Not sure what is elite about a $200 atty, unless one doesn't have a reasonable income and didn't smoke...

 

[BIGMUDDY]

WOW!!!, not sure what is considered elite about a 200 dollar atty kills me, maybe it's the fact that your paying 200 dollars for about 10 bucks worth of material and whatever revolutionary air flow they have designed, I myself will stick with the clones, I have yet to see any authentic worth the asking price and my clones keep me from smoking so they are worth every penny I didn't spend on an authentic.

 

[ErnieKim]

Vape gear is cheap, compared to smoking. Not sure what is elite about a $200 atty, unless one doesn't have a reasonable income and didn't smoke...

Boy, you really don't have a clue do you? Your comeback is a dig about someone not having a "reasonable income"; that's another blazing elitist statement. I'm not going to lower myself to that discussion but what I will say is that I agree with most everyone else here that there is absolutely no real value in most of the over-priced equipment. They are playing you for a fool; it's painfully obvious to almost everyone.

 

[WattWick]

I feel the need to repeat myself.

Most arguments in these discussions are only valid when accompanied by wild generalizations and straw man rhetorics.

Not all clones are crap. Not all OEMs are price gouging or have extremely low production.

 

[ErnieKim]

I feel the need to repeat myself.

Most arguments in these discussions are only valid when accompanied by wild generalizations and straw man rhetorics.

Not all clones are crap. Not all OEMs are price gouging or have extremely low production.

Watt,

Yes of course, it goes without saying and that's why we say "most" or "many" but what we are referring to are the ones that are blatantly price-gouging and the people that vehemently support them.

I just have a problem with elitists in general and it really "gets under my skin" when in this case they have the nerve to criticize someone else's "morals"; good grief!

Just go back and re-read some of the recent comments in this context and I think you'll see what I mean.

I've been following this issue for some time now and it's painfully obvious that there are two distinct factions that defend the price-gougers, 1) the elitists, and 2) the people that benefit monetarily from supporting the price-gougers.

OK, there are a few legitimate collectors and people who appreciate a higher level of craftsmanship, but I don't see them criticizing people who buy clones. I think that my 35 dollar Kanger Subtank has a high degree of craftsmanship. OK, I'm having to make my own higher-grade PEEK insulator for it, but I always put better tires on my cars too.

Forums are great but like so many things there are a few bad eggs here and there. In true American tradition, there are those of us that simply don't stand for it, you are seeing some of them here. I'll bet this is the case in Norway too. I'm no expert but I have been watching the show Lillehammer on Netflix.

 

[WattWick]

Watt,

Yes of course, it goes without saying and that's why we say "most" or "many" but what we are referring to are the ones that are blatantly price-gouging and the people that vehemently support them.

I just have a problem with elitists in general and it really "gets under my skin" when in this case they have the nerve to criticize someone else's "morals"; good grief!

Just go back and re-read some of the recent comments in this context and I think you'll see what I mean.

I've been following this issue for some time now and it's painfully obvious that there are two distinct factions that defend the price-gougers, 1) the elitists, and 2) the people that benefit monetarily from supporting the price-gougers.

OK, there are a few legitimate collectors and people who appreciate a higher level of craftsmanship, but I don't see them criticizing people who buy clones. I think that my 35 dollar Kanger Subtank has a high degree of craftsmanship. OK, I'm having to make my own higher-grade PEEK insulator for it, but I always put better tires on my cars too.

Forums are great but like so many things there are a few bad eggs here and there. In true American tradition, there are those of us that simply don't stand for it, you are seeing some of them here. I'll bet this is the case in Norway too. I'm no expert but I have been watching the show Lillehammer on Netflix.

I just get this vibe sometimes that some justify buying clones with "there are $300 mods out there." To me, black and white perceptions are as annoying as elitism. Or - the justification is more annoying than the act. Consider me in the middle, disliking equally each of the extremist camps. While I own both authentics and clones, I prefer my authentics over my clones. In a perfect world, I guess I'd want current clones to be mass-produced "originals" - and all authentics being worth their asking price. Which they often aren't. To me - no single piece of equipment is worth $200+. Especially now that a dollar costs me 30-40% more than it did a year ago. Maaybe a perfect titanium genisis hybrid.

And indeed. We got our share of "not having any of it" people. We also have the Jante Law. I think human nature knows no geographical borders. Lillehammer is sort of a play on rural stereotypes. I guess it's about as accurate a description of Norway as Better Call Saul is of the US. A thin slice of dramatized "reality" that may contain fragments of truth.

 

[ErnieKim]

I just get this vibe sometimes that some justify buying clones with "there are $300 mods out there." To me, black and white perceptions are as annoying as elitism. Or - the justification is more annoying than the act. Consider me in the middle, disliking equally each of the extremist camps. While I own both authentics and clones, I prefer my authentics over my clones. In a perfect world, I guess I'd want current clones to be mass-produced "originals" - and all authentics being worth their asking price. Which they often aren't. To me - no single piece of equipment is worth $200+. Especially now that a dollar costs me 30-40% more than it did a year ago. Maaybe a perfect titanium genisis hybrid.


And indeed. We got our share of "not having any of it" people. We also have the Jante Law. I think human nature knows no geographical borders. Lillehammer is sort of a play on rural stereotypes. I guess it's about as accurate a description of Norway as Better Call Saul is of the US. A thin slice of dramatized "reality" that may contain fragments of truth.

I agree with all of your points including your points on the two more entertaining TV shows these days; sometimes "off the deep-end", yes, but entertaining.

I spent a Few weeks in Scandanavia. While Sweden was nice, Norway was my absolute favorite; BEAUTIFUL! I wish that I could have seen more of it and the people; "God's Country" for sure!

 

[Completely Average]

Vape gear is cheap, compared to smoking. Not sure what is elite about a $200 atty, unless one doesn't have a reasonable income and didn't smoke...

I have both an authentic Kayfun 3.1 and an Hcigar Kayfun 3.1 clone. If you can look at them, hold them, build a coil on them, and vape on them, and then explain to me with good, solid reasons why the authentic is worth 5 times as much as the Hcigar I'll buy you any 5 authentic RBAs that you want.


But I'm willing to bet that like me, other than some very slight visual differences on the logo you would have trouble telling the difference between them. In fact, if I played mix and match, using both authentic and cloned parts to build two tanks, you wouldn't be able to tell which part belonged to which atty other than the base.

 

[ErnieKim]

I wonder if the elitists who criticize clones ever think about why they want to "keep up with the Joneses' There’s usually a deeper reason as to why one wants the Expensive toys. Here are some possibilities provided by Wiki.

1) Career frustrations. If you’ve been feeling like a hamster on a wheel at work, where you work harder but don’t seem to get anywhere, you may be feeling a little stung by another’s material accolades (expensive equipment).

2) Low self worth. Feel as if you can’t make friends without impressing people or “wowing” them with money or a display of an expensive toy. If you're light in the wallet, you may feel as if you can’t make friends or keep them without having impressive items and instead of realizing this as an unrealistic way to look good.

3) Personal life troubles. If an area of your personal life is under attack and your self esteem is at risk, it can be tempting to look for the “quick and easy” fix to feeling superior to others. The term “the one who dies with the most toys wins” is one that isn’t lost on you––you believe that material wealth definitely will buy you the kingdom, all the while resolving any personal issues that are upsetting you currently.

4) Tough childhood. Those who may have been raised to “do without” may yearn for fancy toys as an adult. On the other hand, people who grow up in lower to middle income families may be more grateful and accepting of material items they work for and earn rather than feel as if they deserve them because they “missed out” during childhood.

 

[stevegmu]

I have both an authentic Kayfun 3.1 and an Hcigar Kayfun 3.1 clone. If you can look at them, hold them, build a coil on them, and vape on them, and then explain to me with good, solid reasons why the authentic is worth 5 times as much as the Hcigar I'll buy you any 5 authentic RBAs that you want.


But I'm willing to bet that like me, other than some very slight visual differences on the logo you would have trouble telling the difference between them. In fact, if I played mix and match, using both authentic and cloned parts to build two tanks, you wouldn't be able to tell which part belonged to which atty other than the base.

I have compared an authentic K4 to fakes at a buddy's vape shop in December. As soon as I picked up the fakes I knew they weren't the real one. The metal is different- both feel, appearance and machining...

It is the same difference as when one compares something like a Lavatube to a ProVari...

 

[jhhollier]

I wish someone would gift me some high end authentic attys so I could jump up on my high horse and join the crusade against the evil clone horde.

 

[ErnieKim]

I have compared an authentic K4 to fakes at a buddy's vape shop in December. As soon as I picked up the fakes I knew they weren't the real one. The metal is different- both feel, appearance and machining...

It is the same difference as when one compares something like a Lavatube to a ProVari...

You spout "common sense" on the bottom of all of your posts. Please explain how a little difference in "feel" justifies spending an additional 400% to 600% more. You call this Common Sense?, I don't think so, I think you do it for the "bragging rights".

 

[stevegmu]

You spout "common sense" on the bottom of all of your posts. Please explain how a little difference in "feel" justifies spending an additional 400% to 600% more. You call this Common Sense?, I don't think so, I think you do it for the "bragging rights".

I like nice, well made things and don't mind paying for quality. Bragging rights for something which is under $200?

 

[ErnieKim]

I like nice, well made things and don't mind paying for quality. Bragging rights for something which is under $200?

Boy, you really are clueless.

 

[ricks]

I like nice things too. I like them even more when I can pay $22 for same thing that other people pay $180. The best part is that they look and work the same. And in a few months, something else comes out and I will do it again and again and still have a lot of money to buy other nice things.

 

[stevegmu]

Boy, you really are clueless.

Seems those who want large collections of branded fakes are the ones who are out for 'bragging rights'...

 

[USMCotaku]

All I'm going to say is..... Not another one of these threads!
It always seems to be the same few anti clone posters, using the same washed up rhetoric.
We can type back and forth till our fingers fall off like that hotel booking web site commercial, but neither side is going to agree or budge.
Novel idea...vape what you like, for the reasons you like, and be proud you aren't smoking.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.