Clone Versus Authentic Discussion

[Freedom2Vape]

Not sure I agree that the market isn't about feelings - how does the modder feel about someone else getting the credit i.e. money for his hard work? Try to look at it from everyone's side - not just the consumer. As GeorgeS said above.

I'll toss my $0.02 in and be done with it.

In my humble opinion there is protected IP and then there is everything else. "IP" is not automagically protected, if I designed, built and started selling "a better mouse trap" out of my garage and my next door neighbor decides to steal my idea, under cut my pricing and begin selling the exact same thing (with the same name and logo, exc.) on it, I better have:

• registered my logos, product names, company name, exc. as Trademarks
• have my "better mouse trap" patented
• defend my IP

otherwise (in many countries including the USA) while what my neighbor is doing could be considered morally wrong, it may not be legally wrong.

In the USA the FTC goes to great lengths to inspect products entering it and are sold in it to ensure that counterfit products are not bought and sold here.

The "catch" is that the ("better mouse trap" in my case) needs to have patent, copyright and trademark registration to be protected IP otherwise it falls into the "everything else" bucket. Even with the mentioned protections in place, if my neighbor changes the design by a given percentage, (making his design while obviously based on mine, a "new idea") I won't have a leg to stand on in court.

I often wondered if many of the Chinese "clones" were ether factory 2nds that the workers started selling on their own, "extra production run" where the workers keep producing product beyond what the OEM order called for or if there was some under/above ground network of workers who traded the drawings/files needed to create other peoples products and enlisted other factories to make production runs of it as if it was their own.

If the cloners want to make the product better (or worse), they can - but when they take the trademark and put it on their product to make it difficult to discern from a visual perspective which is the authentic - then it can have a detrimental effect on the modder who created the device - if the product is inferior. If the product is better, why doesn't the cloner create their own branding and let it stand on its own?

This is just my opinion. I have a right to this opinion, just as you have a right to your opinion.

Every clone I have bought has worked great. I just can't buy authentic for the prices they want. The KF4 was almost $200. I bought 3 Tobecos for $53. I'd rather save my money and buy several clones and enjoy vaping even more. Buying Clones also allows me to keep my kids happy with their Xboxes and icraps, I mean iPhones. I prefer Android.

And if that bothers some people, keep it to yourself! You won't change how I feel.

Unlike Ricks, if you can make a compelling argument that the clone market should be able to copy a device - along with the trademark, please respond - I am willing to listen. I, at the moment, can't imagine an argument that would be compelling, but feel free to surprise me.

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[hypocritelecteur]

Not sure I agree that the market isn't about feelings - how does the modder feel about someone else getting the credit i.e. money for his hard work? Try to look at it from everyone's side - not just the consumer. As GeorgeS said above.


If the cloners want to make the product better (or worse), they can - but when they take the trademark and put it on their product to make it difficult to discern from a visual perspective which is the authentic - then it can have a detrimental effect on the modder who created the device - if the product is inferior. If the product is better, why doesn't the cloner create their own branding and let it stand on its own?

This is just my opinion. I have a right to this opinion, just as you have a right to your opinion.



Unlike Ricks, if you can make a compelling argument that the clone market should be able to copy a device - along with the trademark, please respond - I am willing to listen. I, at the moment, can't imagine an argument that would be compelling, but feel free to surprise me.

Best Regards,
F2V

F2V--its not about should or should not. That is not an argument that belongs outside of an individuals' heart. You can't curb demand by moralizing or even legislating the field of play, It simply will happen until something changes in the market. Innovators can either develop the partnerships that allow them to exploit the excess demand their products generate in the model of Erlkonigin or they will have to put up with clonemakers. There's no should or shouldn't involved, the only productive conversation needs to be about practicalities. They deserve compensation for their work! They can keep trying to saddle a wild horse or they can learn how to whisper.

I'm not in favor of cloning. I just got into RBAs so i tried a few clones and settled on the Erl as the best fit so I ordered a Prinz. If that works well I'm in for the premiere v2 if they make one.

I just think the way the problem is framed here is impractical and not solutions oriented. There's no way to fight the market. It just can't be done. You must learn it and use it or you end up losing out on some of the compensation you deserve. The current model sucks for everyone except the douchebags laser etching someone else's logos. Consumers and innovators alike. There's got to be a better system.

 

[Freedom2Vape]

F2V--its not about should or should not. That is not an argument that belongs outside of an individuals' heart. You can't curb demand by moralizing or even legislating the field of play, It simply will happen until something changes in the market. Innovators can either develop the partnerships that allow them to exploit the excess demand their products generate in the model of Erlkonigin or they will have to put up with clonemakers. There's no should or shouldn't involved, the only productive conversation needs to be about practicalities. They deserve compensation for their work! They can keep trying to saddle a wild horse or they can learn how to whisper.

I'm not in favor of cloning. I just got into RBAs so i tried a few clones and settled on the Erl as the best fit so I ordered a Prinz. If that works well I'm in for the premiere v2 if they make one.

I just think the way the problem is framed here is impractical and not solutions oriented. There's no way to fight the market. It just can't be done. You must learn it and use it or you end up losing out on some of the compensation you deserve. The current model sucks for everyone except the douchebags laser etching someone else's logos. Consumers and innovators alike. There's got to be a better system.

Well said .

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[ricks]

Many of us who work in manufacturing can tell the difference, just by look and feel. Loose tolerances, gaps, poor threading, mystery metal is fine for some, I guess, but not me. What I do find interesting is that counterfeits are so commonplace in the vape world, most new vapers don't know their $30 Kayfun 4 is a fake...

They all use the word "Clone" or other words on their websites.

 

[ricks]

So you wouldn't have any issues with someone taking credit for your work? Say on the job, you work hard on a project and someone else takes the credit for your hard work? I'm just curious....

Best Regards,
F2V

I wouldn't over charge in the first place...

 

[stevegmu]

They all use the word "Clone" or other words on their websites.

Clone sounds better than counterfeit....

 

[stevegmu]

Eccuse me but how do you do that? Sometimes an unbranded clone simply is not available.

Buy something else. It all comes down to wanting the brand and look without paying for it. Same in other industries also, with the fake purses, phones, watches and shoes...

 

[Freedom2Vape]

I wouldn't over charge in the first place...

Ok - but not an answer to the question.

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[ricks]

Ok - but not an answer to the question.

Best Regards,
F2V

That is an answer... The authentic is way over priced. I would never rip someone off like that.

 

[Freedom2Vape]

I'm certainly glad to hear/read that. I wish a lot of companies felt the same, especially software companies i.e. Microsoft, Adobe. After all, once the program is written, it costs pennies to burn a CD or store the installation on the cloud. They shouldn't charge all of that money for their software. But wait, maybe they should get something for development costs? Not too much, though - because the users have to perform the debugging, right?

Ok - I'll ask again:
So you wouldn't have any issues with someone taking credit for your work? Say on the job, you work hard on a project and someone else takes the credit for your hard work? I'm just curious....

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[ricks]

I'm certainly glad to hear/read that. I wish a lot of companies felt the same, especially software companies i.e. Microsoft, Adobe. After all, once the program is written, it costs pennies to burn a CD or store the installation on the cloud. They shouldn't charge all of that money for their software. But wait, maybe they should get something for development costs? Not too much, though - because the users have to perform the debugging, right?

Ok - I'll ask again:
So you wouldn't have any issues with someone taking credit for your work? Say on the job, you work hard on a project and someone else takes the credit for your hard work? I'm just curious....

Best Regards,
F2V

Sure, I would have issues. But if I don't do anything about it, (after over-charging and ripping people off) It would be my own fault for not doing something about it.

But with the authentic KF4, they ARE over-priced!

 

[Freedom2Vape]

Sure, I would have issues. But if I don't do anything about it, (after over-charging and ripping people off) It would be my own fault for not doing something about it.

But with the authentic KF4, they ARE over-priced!

I agree the authentic KF4 is over priced. I was very disappointed in the flavor of the KF v4 after using the KFL+. As for doing something about it, the small company modders do not always have the budget to go after the cloners. It doesn't make it right for the cloners to steal the trademark/logo, because the modders can't afford to go after them.

That said, I can be called a hypocrite because I've bought clones. If the clone is close to delivering what I want, I will try my best to buy the authentic. Not always successful, because they aren't always available.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your opinions. I do not completely agree with them, but the reality is what it is.

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[Jman8]

Cloning justification = theft is perfectly okay when the other vendors are ripping me off with their pricing.

 

[roxynoodle]

Same old arguments

If your IP isn't protected, you have to know it might be cloned.

And as far as tolerances, etc, my last 3 high end authentics have been a pile, while only one of the budget authentics was (and the company replaced it for me). So once again, the truth is really somewhere in the middle. Each thing must be judged for its own merits, or lack thereof.

 

[Two_Bears]

Not sure I agree that the market isn't about feelings - how does the modder feel about someone else getting the credit i.e. money for his hard work? Try to look at it from everyone's side - not just the consumer. As GeorgeS said above.


If the cloners want to make the product better (or worse), they can - but when they take the trademark and put it on their product to make it difficult to discern from a visual perspective which is the authentic - then it can have a detrimental effect on the modder who created the device - if the product is inferior. If the product is better, why doesn't the cloner create their own branding and let it stand on its own?

This is just my opinion. I have a right to this opinion, just as you have a right to your opinion.



Unlike Ricks, if you can make a compelling argument that the clone market should be able to copy a device - along with the trademark, please respond - I am willing to listen. I, at the moment, can't imagine an argument that would be compelling, but feel free to surprise me.

Best Regards,
F2V

It all comes down to the vape budget hands as grimmgreen days.

I am on a limited income and have to watch my budget

I bought two Freakshow Mini authentics because it is my favorite vape after I got s drip tip that properly fit it everything else is a clone even my Kanger Subtank Nano is a clone

Now I understand they want to protect their trademarks however no one makes clones without the trademarks.

 

[Freedom2Vape]

It all comes down to the vape budget hands as grimmgreen days.

I am on a limited income and have to watch my budget

I bought two Freakshow Mini authentics because it is my favorite vape after I got s drip tip that properly fit it everything else is a clone even my Kanger Subtank Nano is a clone

Now I understand they want to protect their trademarks however no one makes clones without the trademarks.

I understand a fixed budget and I understand that clones aren't made without the trademarks. But (bet you knew that was coming), I also understand the maker who wants to protect their trademark. Unfortunately many of these makers are like you and on a fixed budget. They can't afford to go after the cloners. But they can't afford to do that on their budget. This doesn't mean that it is ok for the cloner to steal the trademark.

I would love a Jaguar - but I can't afford it. but you won't see someone clone a Jaguar because that company has enough money to stop them.

Let's put this another way that may be more clear - if you, Two_Bears, created a wonderful product that took you 10 years of hard work to build and make perfect. You decided to sell this product - wouldn't you want compensation for your investment? You might not try and overcharge for it, but you would want to try to make back the money you spent building it, wouldn't you? Would you feel it was ok for someone else to steal you idea, put your trademark on it and sell it cheaper because they used inferior or the wrong parts?

I still think it would be wrong.

 

[stevegmu]

There are plenty of affordable non counterfeit mods, but people want the brand without the price and will justify theft by simply saying the original is too expensive. It's how all counterfeiting works...

 

[Freedom2Vape]

There are plenty of affordable non counterfeit mods, but people want the brand without the price and will justify theft by simply saying the original is too expensive. It's how all counterfeiting works...

Which is why I drive a Nissan instead of a Jaguar - I can afford it .

 

[ricks]

There are plenty of affordable non counterfeit mods, but people want the brand without the price and will justify theft by simply saying the original is too expensive. It's how all counterfeiting works...

The non counterfeit mods that are out there aren't as good as the clones.

 

[stevegmu]

The non counterfeit mods that are out there aren't as good as the clones.

My Audi isn't as nice as a Mercedes S63, but I didn't buy a stolen Mercedes...