clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion

[ClintS]

A design would constitute an "artistic work."
From the link you provided:
and

The design would not be copyrighted, the form the design was fixed in a tangible format would be.

Thus a drawing, a painting, a written description, a schematic, a photograph, or an audible recording would be copyrighted, but the copyright does not provide protection of the design.

 

[Jman8]

The design would not be copyrighted, the form the design was fixed in a tangible format would be.

Thus a drawing, a painting, a written description, a schematic, a photograph, or an audible recording would be copyrighted, but the copyright does not provide protection of the design.

The design is copyrighted when it is fixed into a medium.

I do realize a design patent would be most sufficient for what we are talking about, and yet, with so much massive cloning, would be rather impractical to enforce.

For me, this just deals with the ethics and not so much the practicality of the law. Even if the market were highly regulated in the U.S., cloning would still occur. And as long as that market exists somewhere in the open, consumers are going to think it is "perfectly legal" and/or not an issue ethically. Or really downplaying any violation of intellectual property rights.

As seen on this thread and ones similar to it.

 

[Jman8]

I. DESIGN PATENT/COPYRIGHT OVERLAP
There is an area of overlap between copyright and design patent statutes where the author/inventor can secure both a copyright and a design patent. Thus an ornamental design may be copyrighted as a work of art and may also be subject matter of a design patent. The author/inventor may not be required to elect between securing a copyright or a design patent.

United States Patent and Trademark Office

 

[ClintS]

I will purchase what I please when I please and I owe no one an explanation for it .

Based on your description intellectual property right means nothing to you.

... You can find clones in almost any vape shop because they ARE legal to purchase. ...

There are many things that are legal, that doesn't make it right.

as one example

I'm guessing you are either an active duty or former active duty Marine so maybe you could agree this - it is legal to burn a US American flag - but that does not make it right nor would I condone such an action.

 

[ClintS]

Totally agree, each serves it's own purpose but one does not legally protect the other.
The design would have to be patented, and the work demonstrating the design is copyrighted.

 

[turbocad6]

...As far as logos go, if a modder does take the time to trademark his logo, I won't buy a clone with that logo on it...

man you are such a hypocrite, so now your saying that if the modder went to the extra expense of filing as a trade mark then you won't buy the clone??? that's where the line would be drawn? do you actually check to see if the cloned item your buying is actually copying a trade mark? filing patents and trademarks are going to increase the cost of the mod that your complaining is too much to begin with in the first place and your whole justification for buying the clones are that the originals cost too much already...

You are equating my morals with those of the cloner.

no you're mistaken, the cloners are the ones actually stealing. I never said anyone buying any of the clones are stealing or doing anything illegal, not at all, I said you can buy anything you want, but then you are knowingly endorsing and supporting this theft and turning a blind eye and giving them their money because of greed. you want what you can't afford and rather than buying a genuine cheaper product you instead decide to support thieves, simply to get what you want. if you didn't agree with the theft enough to really stand on that principle alone, then you wouldn't support them. it's really that simple.

Ill give you an example. myfreedomsmokes is having an awesome sale right now on 100mg nic base, only $50 for a liter which is less than half of what it should cost. I would love to buy a liter of 100mg nic base for $50, that's a great deal, but, myfreedomsmokes is one of those companies that has built their business by promoting and endorsing these thieves, myfreedomsmokes sells all clones, and they do NOT label any of then as clones, they instead just tack on there own MFS in front of the name of the mod and that's it, so you can buy a MFS nemmy or a MFS kayfun and you are getting a clone.

the only way to even know this is by being savy enough to realize they are clones because of the price, that's it. it is entirely possible that someone who doesn't know all that much about anything may see a MFS nemesis or a MFS haydes and really have no way of knowing it's a fake... everything on there site is fake and this is not clearly stated anywhere. personally I don't see that as a very ethical business. now the nic base itself is obviously not a clone but I still have a problem buying it, because in a way that would be supporting an unethical business. when I have the choice I would rather support those businesses that have higher morals and ethics than a place like this, even if it means I'm not going to get as great of a price. will my not buying from MFS affect them in any way? maybe not, and they'll still make big bucks doing things just the way they do, but personally I won't support it, even if it means it costs me more in the end... morals and values don't have to go out the window just because you want to save a buck, yet I wouldn't think any less of anyone who did buy this nic base, not at all... I'd just rather give my hard earned dollars to someone else

 

[DPLongo22]

Authentic mods are ridiculously overpriced - like 200 bucks for a tiny metal box with a plastic bottle in it? Yeah, it's a fine mech, good materials, relatively small company, but COME OON!! After all, it's just a tin box, an empty one! If "small" companies finally consider putting REALISTIC price tags on their products, perhaps the copying will fade away. But yeah, who am I to question the Invisible Hand..

I'm truly NOT trying to be argumentative, but I don't believe production price is part of the market-value assessment, determining whether or not something is overpriced. I've always been of the relatively simple opinion that:

- Something is overpriced production is significantly outpacing sales.

- It's under-priced if it sells out immediately, then is resold at higher prices in the secondary market.

- Perfect pricing is when the product sells, but the secondary market fetches lower-than-new prices.

 

[dr g]

Haven't read the whole thread but in case it hasn't been pointed out, I can say without a doubt that clones do hurt the market for genuines, and that it's not true that someone who buys a clone would never have bought an original. Almost everyone who buys a clone can in fact afford an original, we all see the "money saved" count in peoples' sigs. People often end up buying several clones.

The problem is that the pitting of China labor against US labor distorts the market in a bad way.

 

[samcm010]

Lol, another completely disingenuous comparison. Books? Really? You are either too blind to see the difference, or you do recognize it, and use it anyways in an effort to "win at all costs". Either way, I'm out. Unsubscribed

Sad you cannot stick with a reasonable debate without ditching. There are varying sides and many people have an opinion but to be such a baby and bow out? wow.
I for one would add with classifieds and the after market there is no reason to buy counterfeits. I would also argue strongly that the original mod makers do not make a ton of money. The budget excuse is really pathetic if you base it on all of us who were former smokers spending $10+ a day

 

[tayone415]

I don't know why some people are too cheap to buy an authentic mod and continue to only support clone companies. Is $150-300 a lot for an authentic mod? Yes, but many smokers would spend that much on something disposable like cigarettes, lighters and for many gum, mints and cologne in 1-3 months.

If it's a mod that is no longer made or goes for a ridiculous amount like some of the Caravelas, or if someone is buying a clone to decide if they want the authentic or have the authentic and just need a beater mod or there just getting into mechs and rebuildables and are testing things out before making the leap to go authentic then a clone IMO would be acceptable.

 

[DPLongo22]

I don't know why some people are too cheap to buy an authentic mod and continue to only support clone companies. Is $150-300 a lot for an authentic mod? Yes, but many smokers would spend that much on something disposable like cigarettes, lighters and for many gum, mints and cologne in 1-3 months.

If it's a mod that is no longer made or goes for a ridiculous amount like some of the Caravelas, or if someone is buying a clone to decide if they want the authentic or have the authentic and just need a beater mod or there just getting into mechs and rebuildables and are testing things out before making the leap to go authentic then a clone IMO would be acceptable.

Contrary to the belief and practices of our government, what any person does with their own damn money is their own damn business.

 

[tayone415]

Contrary to the belief and practices of our government, what any person does with their own damn money is their own damn business.

You sound like a very upset and offended clone only user.

 

[WillyZee]

In my experience ... clones of anything are always made to sub par standards and quality.

And you usually get what you pay for.

 

[DPLongo22]

In my experience ... clones of anything are always made to sub par standards and quality.

And you usually get what you pay for.

Agreed.

You sound like a very upset and offended clone only user.

Nope. I actually.don't.have any. But I also couldn't care.less what some else buys. Unless they're buying it for me, of course.

 

[JMarca]

Alot of people say, "I cant see myself paying ~$200 for a 'real' mod, when I can spend about 10% of that to buy a clone that is exactly the same". But I say to you; We are told to support small bussiness. So when someone makes their own mods, arent they considered a small bussiness?

I do support small business when those small businesses deserve it. I have 5 vape shops around me, only 2 get my business but that's a different story.
I support mod makers small and big when they sell a quality product at a reasonable price point.

- I do NOT support mod makers that try to sell you a 200 dollar steel tube and a switch.
- I do NOT support mod makers that try to make their money via scheming or gimmicks suck as giving mods dumb titles such as competition devices or dry herb compatible.
- I do NOT support any mod maker that releases 200 mods and then stops the line just so they can label them limited editions collector's pieces so they can mark up prices and screw over people.

- I DO and always will support a product with good customer service.
- I DO believe that a good product over a short amount of time will speak for itself and doesn't need any gimmicks, titles or other forms of silly advertising to get noticed.
- I do NOT believe in my eyes it has much to do with the money, I've spent upwards of 300+ dollars for a mod that's worthy of that price, just don't try to rip me off.

 

[stevegmu]

'Clones' are like implants. They look ok from a distance, but in the hand, the difference is obvious...

 

[tayone415]

Agreed.




Nope. I actually.don't.have any. But I also couldn't care.less what some else buys. Unless they're buying it for me, of course.

What someone else buys, I don't care I'm not the one using it, I wasn't talking about morals or ethics. I was just saying that most vapors are ex smokers, and many were heavy smokers going through 1+ pack a day and if you even see some peoples signatures you see how much they would of wasted on just cigarettes alone not including everything bought because of smoking and many people did spend over $1-2k a year on analogs so in 5 years $5-10K and 10 $10-20k+ and I was one of those people and obviously I don't have anything to show for it. I feel at least with a nice authentic mod you get to keep it, instead of throwing it on the ground after.

 

[danca90]

You guys realize what made in the usa means to most of the rest of the world, right?

 

[stevegmu]

You guys realize what made in the usa means to most of the rest of the world, right?

Yes, quality.

 

[danca90]

Yes, quality.

So, that's why we have German made fords in Europe! Europeans love US quality so much! I understand now! Yay America!