clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion

[bluecat]

Morals? Really morals on this? So basically it is okay for all the original makers to steal the design of an mech then throw their own logo/name on it and charge 200 bucks for it? Really.

Now it is okay for them to make limited runs artificially inflating the price. They have no patent, no copyright, and no trademark. Yet they want to be artificially protected when other spend 20+k's not including attorney fees to have their product copyrighted.

Really morals.

 

[turbocad6]

all excuses to justify supporting the theft and unethical business practices that give you what you want.

I'll tell you what, why don't you go and design a mod and then invest in having them made for you to your specs and see what it costs you to do that when you don't have a company in china making them for you by the thousands, and see what you would need to sell them for as a profitable business model and then come back and tell me how these mods are a rip off. then when you realize what it costs YOU and how much risk of investment you'll have, tell me how you'll feel when someone STEALS your design and copies it and sells it for a fraction of what it costs YOU to have them manufactured for you.

of course you won't even entertain this thought because you only care about justifying your actions.

 

[bluecat]

Of course the ball flies right over your head yet you don't see it.

I am out.

 

[turbocad6]

maybe I ducked


stupid question but has anyone who subscribes to the thought that all these original mods are rip offs, have any of you actually machined anything ever? have you ever tried turning a solid stainless billet into a mod? if it took you 4 hours to build a mod by hand, how much would you want to get paid for that? if you had to invest over 100K in tooling so instead of 4 hours it now took you only 45 minutes, how much would you expect to get paid for those? doesn't anyone see that the price of a rip off clone wouldn't even pay the wages of an american worker for like 20 minutes of time, never mind the costs of materials, and marketing, and wait for it, actually making a buck for your efforts? it's real easy to call something a rip off when you don't have a clue

 

[Burnie]

Everyone keeps saying the same thing and won't listen to the other side of the story, sounds like Congress and the Senate in the USA to me. Made in the USA "Cost" different than "Made in China" (which is where the clones/copy's are made). Some just can't understand that. Not pointing fingers or jabbing at anyone, but facts are facts, costs here (or in lots of places in the world), are Higher than in China. Just my (which would be 1/10 of a cent in China)

Vape On
Burnie

 

[MykOne]

Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't.

 

[Jman8]

Whose law ?

International copyright treaties.

In most cases the copyright term is the life of the author plus 50 years, but for cinematographic and photographic works and works created by a company or organization the term is 50 years after first publication.

This is from Wikipedia page on "Copyright Law for China." Plenty of info regarding international treaties on Wikipedia, and if this for some reason doesn't work, I'm cool posting actual legal documentation for the discussion.

In both legal reality and the reality we share, it isn't hard to decipher when copyright (law) is being violated.

 

[crxess]

Tiny Idea about Creating something.
Minus the PC gear - $650ea.
Only made 10 though.
Maybe just a touch more complicated than a Battery tube/510 and switch.(Maybe)

 

[samcm010]

Sorry if I missed someone posting this before now but here is a thought.. if you are tight on budget there are many many many authentic mods and atties both here on the classifieds and elsewhere on classifieds that can many times be bought for very reasonable prices. Authentic KFL's sell for around $60.00 on the classifieds, Authentic Nemesis cost about $120 used and so on.. as a matter of fact there are same really low prices in the used market right now on all sorts of things. I have purchased a few Authentic Clones new but 80% of my collection was bought used at a very fair price.

 

[WillyZee]

Sorry if I missed someone posting this before now but here is a thought.. if you are tight on budget there are many many many authentic mods and atties both here on the classifieds and elsewhere on classifieds that can many times be bought for very reasonable prices. Authentic KFL's sell for around $60.00 on the classifieds, Authentic Nemesis cost about $120 used and so on.. as a matter of fact there are same really low prices in the used market right now on all sorts of things. I have purchased a few Authentic Clones new but 80% of my collection was bought used at a very fair price.

same here ... I bought 3 Provari minis and 3 Original Kayfuns ... all from the classies here on ECF.

 

[DPLongo22]

Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't.

 

[samcm010]

same here ... I bought 3 Provari minis and 3 Original Kayfuns ... all from the classies here on ECF.

It sort of takes the Sails out of the budget justifying buying clones. I really do not care that much other than I agree Clones are theft morally and that the clones are made for the most part in countries where the workers are generally oppressed and treated horribly. The fact that with very little effort used versions of the original can be had for marginally more than the clones makes the budget argument faulty at best.
Now I am waiting on the comments about people not knowing the classifieds exist and that people do not have paypal Etc etc and while I imagine that may be true for some if you are on this thread you are certain to know there are classifieds.

 

[USMCotaku]

Lets see, a used "authentic" for $120, still have to buy an atty, battery, charger...I got my whole set up for $45......so no, it doesn't deflate my clone sails, sorry. Also read the definitions and you will find that copyright isn't the right protection for the mods, they need patents. But since they are also copying other mods, with most differences being aesthetic, they are unlikely to be awarded a patent. Quibble all you like, but if you are so dead set against copying then you should find out what the first tube mech mod was (or box if that's your thing) and ONLY buy that one. Untill you do that, you are JUST as guilty of furthering "theft" of intellectual property. As far as logos go, if a modder does take the time to trademark his logo, I won't buy a clone with that logo on it, especially since my concern is quality of construction and vape, not the status of sporting a certain logo. You have seen people being shut down for selling counterfeit goods, yet shops all over the nation sell clones unmolested....which should show you the legality of these clones. You are equating my morals with those of the cloner. It would be more of a moral absence for me to blow my money by buying something so far our of my budget, thereby failing to meet financial obligations elsewhere. And yes....someone harping on a person over and over about something they are off base about, sometimes do deserve a punch in the nose, whether physically or metaphorically.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[stevegmu]

I don't think some understand the difference between a concept and counterfeit. A concept would be a VV/VW or mechanical mod or topper used for vaping, which has a battery which delivers power to a topper; a topper being the e-juice delivery system. While all mods and toppers employ the same concept in one form or another, it is when companies with no care for intellectual property use the same design, logos and even name in their product, it becomes nothing more than theft. Any device isn't a counterfeit of the original, unless the manufacturer simply reverse engineers the original and seeks sales based on the name and design of the original.

 

[Jman8]

Also read the definitions and you will find that copyright isn't the right protection for the mods, they need patents.

It could be both. Patents for technology, and copyright for design, especially if said design is put into a medium to establish prototype and originality.

But since they are also copying other mods, with most differences being aesthetic, they are unlikely to be awarded a patent. Quibble all you like, but if you are so dead set against copying then you should find out what the first tube mech mod was (or box if that's your thing) and ONLY buy that one. Untill you do that, you are JUST as guilty of furthering "theft" of intellectual property.

Would be like saying unless you purchase first book ever written, you are just as guilty of "theft" if you purchased any other book that happened to contain words.

As far as logos go, if a modder does take the time to trademark his logo, I won't buy a clone with that logo on it, especially since my concern is quality of construction and vape, not the status of sporting a certain logo. You have seen people being shut down for selling counterfeit goods, yet shops all over the nation sell clones unmolested....which should show you the legality of these clones.

Again, it is really hard to enforce, especially in unregulated market. Buyers who consistently purchase products in a non-deceptive counterfeit market are generally under the impression that it is "perfectly legal" because the market exists.

I sometimes think it is 'perfectly legal' to drive 5 miles over the speed limit when everyone else on the same road is doing 10 miles over.

 

[USMCotaku]

Lol, another completely disingenuous comparison. Books? Really? You are either too blind to see the difference, or you do recognize it, and use it anyways in an effort to "win at all costs". Either way, I'm out. Unsubscribed

 

[NathanielFT]

I would only buy an authentic if 1. I loved the look 2. it wasn't a ballache to source and 3. it couldn't be copied. As long as theres a decent clone available I'm gonna get a clone.
My ipv2 is an 'authentic/original' but its from china, and i challenge anyone who's held this and an authentic hana to tell me the ipv2 isn't built MUCH better

 

[ClintS]

It could be both. Patents for technology, and copyright for design, especially if said design is put into a medium to establish prototype and originality. ...

Copyright protects original works of authorship, while a patent protects inventions or discoveries. Copyrights include literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation.

A trademark protects words, phrases, symbols, or designs identifying the source of the goods or services of one party and distinguishing them from those of others.

See Copyright in General (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office

 

[Jman8]

Copyright protects original works of authorship, while a patent protects inventions or discoveries. Copyrights include literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation.

A trademark protects words, phrases, symbols, or designs identifying the source of the goods or services of one party and distinguishing them from those of others.

See Copyright in General (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office

A design would constitute an "artistic work."

From the link you provided:

Ideas and discoveries are not protected by the copyright law, although the way in which they are expressed may be.

and

under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device

 

[glycerol]

Authentic mods are ridiculously overpriced - like 200 bucks for a tiny metal box with a plastic bottle in it? Yeah, it's a fine mech, good materials, relatively small company, but COME OON!! After all, it's just a tin box, an empty one! If "small" companies finally consider putting REALISTIC price tags on their products, perhaps the copying will fade away. But yeah, who am I to question the Invisible Hand..