Clones... Why?

[MrKiltYou]

And once again, cloning is not counterfeiting.

I would disagree with with that in regards to most clones being sold today. If the average person is handed an OEM and a clone they will not be able to tell which is the clone. Most "cloners" are putting the OEM markings on them which in fact makes them counterfeit's and not clones.

 

[lightbud404]

not this again

 

[bsoplinger]

I would disagree with with that in regards to most clones being sold today. If the average person is handed an OEM and a clone they will not be able to tell which is the clone. Most "cloners" are putting the OEM markings on them which in fact makes them counterfeit's and not clones.

But the same could be said about that average person and any area where some expertise is required. The average Joe can't tell the difference between wine from a box and 'the good stuff' either. As long as the clone isn't being sold at the price of an original I don't see harm being done. Counterfeiting is trying to pass a fake off as an original.

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[MrKiltYou]

But the same could be said about that average person and any area where some expertise is required. The average Joe can't tell the difference between wine from a box and 'the good stuff' either. As long as the clone isn't being sold at the price of an original I don't see harm being done. Counterfeiting is trying to pass a fake off as an original.

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That is nothing like what I said. Your example holds no weight because the labeling of the said products are different. If I took a bottle of cheap wine and slapped the label from an expensive bottle on it would be counterfeiting regardless of the pricing. I personally have no issues with copies, clones, look-a-like or whatever you want to call them without making an exact replica. However, when you copy all the logos and such so that you are unable to tell the difference from the real thing and the clone that is counterfeiting.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Before you armchair experts stroke your egos any more,
Please follow this link and scroll down to : "supply ability"
http://m.alibaba.com/product/1618267872/China_2014_Latest_Full_mechanical_mod/specifications.html
Kamry E cig can supply/manufacture 5000 hammer mods per week.
That's just hammer clones. They make a ton of products.
Impossible for you, not for a professional.

Factory production is not even close to realistic for a single man or small group operation. It is as if you are saying Atmomixani and Kamry have the same number of people working for them.

Lets see, Shenzhen Kamry Technology CO. Ltd | WorldofTrade.com

I assure you sir CNC equipment makes the clones at Kamry, not some 100-250 trained machinists.

If you look up even just a little about how long it takes to machine a bit of steel like 304 or 316, you will realize just how slow the process is even with full automation on a single machine.

When you multiply the number of machines your output will also increase, especially if you can do so in range of hundreds of machines.

It takes Ford under 6 hours to build an entire car, therefore everyone should be able to do the same; is failed logic.

Maurice

 

[xpl0it]

Your condescending reply shows your lack of knowledge on the topic.
Anyone that can afford a computer or Internet connection can afford a legit mod if they so desired.
Only a fool or a child would think ownership of a $200 mod actually symbolizes your "wealth".

It's a $200 mod, not a Bentley.
Maybe it's alot for your allowance. It's less than my monthly cable bill.
Get off your high horse.

I suggest you not read to deep into my posts. ;-)

 

[SourKing]

Yes this is just but the statistics we are giving is for one person they probably have more than about at least 8 ppl

 

[hexagondun]

I'll stick with originals then! I like quality. Thanks fellas!

This is a touchy and much debated subject.

My two cents: Do some research. Some clones are virtually indistinguishable, and some even better in regards to things like voltage drop, etc., than their genuine counterparts. The infitine stingray clone is supposed to be so spot on it's not even funny; Hcigar clones are typically great; hell, my fasttech nemmy is the best mech I own! Most of these mech mods are nothing but tubes with conductive pins and a spring loaded firing switch-- not hard to clone. As Vapingwithtwisted420 said in his nemesis clone review: "clones are not evil people; high prices are evil." Maybe this clone business shows us that the inflated prices of the high end mechs are just super jacked up.

There has also been much speculation about high end mech designers selling the schematics directly to China for even more profit than their limited edition burst runs will net them here in the US. I can't speak to this-- I simply have no idea-- but when prototype shots start appearing on Chinese websites well before the American release of the originals, one starts to wonder...

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[hexagondun]

This is a touchy and much debated subject.

My two cents: Do some research. Some clones are virtually indistinguishable, and some even better in regards to things like voltage drop, etc., than their genuine counterparts. The infitine stingray clone is supposed to be so spot on it's not even funny; Hcigar clones are typically great; hell, my fasttech nemmy is the best mech I own! Most of these mech mods are nothing but tubes with conductive pins and a spring loaded firing switch-- not hard to clone. As Vapingwithtwisted420 said in his nemesis clone review: "clones are not evil people; high prices are evil." Maybe this clone business shows us that the inflated prices of the high end mechs are just super jacked up.

There has also been much speculation about high end mech designers selling the schematics directly to China for even more profit than their limited edition burst runs will net them here in the US. I can't speak to this-- I simply have no idea-- but when prototype shots start appearing on Chinese websites well before the American release of the originals, one starts to wonder...

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[SourKing]

Factory production is not even close to realistic for a single man or small group operation. It is as if you are saying Atmomixani and Kamry have the same number of people working for them.

Lets see, Shenzhen Kamry Technology CO. Ltd | WorldofTrade.com

I assure you sir CNC equipment makes the clones at Kamry, not some 100-250 trained machinists.

If you look up even just a little about how long it takes to machine a bit of steel like 304 or 316, you will realize just how slow the process is even with full automation on a single machine.

When you multiply the number of machines your output will also increase, especially if you can do so in range of hundreds of machines.

It takes Ford under 6 hours to build an entire car, therefore everyone should be able to do the same; is failed logic.

Maurice

I cut 316 at work with a lathe machine and and it takes that machine 15 min to cut a 3 inch diameter hole that is 2 inches deep that's the older machine the newer takes about 10 minutes

 

[BaDaBooM]

I cut 316 at work with a lathe machine and and it takes that machine 15 min to cut a 3 inch diameter hole that is 2 inches deep that's the older machine the newer takes about 10 minutes

Just out of interest how long time would it take you to make a nemesis from scratch ?? Really hard question to answe but maybe you could give us a rough idea.


I asked a friend who has an engineering company, nothing like making mech mods they make motorized foundry ladles and stuff like that. He looked at my nemesis and said how much do they cost, I said around 200 for a real one, he replied wouldn't be worth making at that price. He said they have a cnc that is precise enough to machine it but it would take time and you would have to have one man checking all the parts and you would need a cnc machine for every SS part (top cap, body, locking ring and switch) to be able get a decent production flow.
He did also say it looked way over engineered, but after I told why it needed to be like that he just shook his head and said how anybody can make a profit at that price is beyond me.

 

[neutrontech]

I would disagree with with that in regards to most clones being sold today. If the average person is handed an OEM and a clone they will not be able to tell which is the clone. Most "cloners" are putting the OEM markings on them which in fact makes them counterfeit's and not clones.

Those would then be counterfeits, and I wouldn't buy those. If a clone actually uses the originals markings and tries to pass themselves off as originals, then in my eyes they are no longer clones and are then counterfeits.

This is just my opinion. I have no qualms with buying things that the manufacturer tells you aren't original. I take serious issue with companies that make copies and then try and fool people into believing they are original. That's criminal as far as I'm concerned.

This is one of those morally gray areas that people have to decide where they stand. I'm not sure anyone can really say what is right or wrong here. You just have to do what toy are comfortable doing.

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[SourKing]

Just out of interest how long time would it take you to make a nemesis from scratch ?? Really hard question to answe but maybe you could give us a rough idea.


I asked a friend who has an engineering company, nothing like making mech mods they make motorized foundry ladles and stuff like that. He looked at my nemesis and said how much do they cost, I said around 200 for a real one, he replied wouldn't be worth making at that price. He said they have a cnc that is precise enough to machine it but it would take time and you would have to have one man checking all the parts and you would need a cnc machine for every SS part (top cap, body, locking ring and switch) to be able get a decent production flow.
He did also say it looked way over engineered, but after I told why it needed to be like that he just shook his head and said how anybody can make a profit at that price is beyond me.

See on a business stand point your friend would be the man to talk to. But he is right. For one man to make the entire nemi would take at least 4 hours and that's if you don't engrave and do a have ads job but if one man made it I would think it would take about 12 hours doesn't count engraving or checking for flaws or any of the crucial pre ship duties. So for 500 to be pushed out in a week you would need about 20 ppl

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Just out of interest how long time would it take you to make a nemesis from scratch ?? Really hard question to answe but maybe you could give us a rough idea.


I asked a friend who has an engineering company, nothing like making mech mods they make motorized foundry ladles and stuff like that. He looked at my nemesis and said how much do they cost, I said around 200 for a real one, he replied wouldn't be worth making at that price. He said they have a cnc that is precise enough to machine it but it would take time and you would have to have one man checking all the parts and you would need a cnc machine for every SS part (top cap, body, locking ring and switch) to be able get a decent production flow.
He did also say it looked way over engineered, but after I told why it needed to be like that he just shook his head and said how anybody can make a profit at that price is beyond me.

I find it funny that people with no experience in manufacturing, or knowing people who manufacture things, claim "but it's just a couple of tubes and some contact screws!!!" It's like people who have no job or property complaining that taxes aren't high enough.

Machining is expensive work. People simply refuse to understand that MOD makers aren't "artificially propping up prices by withholding supply" but scratching together whatever money they can in order to make whatever size run they can in order to sell them at a profit.

Learn something about what it costs to machine parts, then have an opinion.

 

[SourKing]

Oh it costs a lot at my work we will have a finished part the size of a large dinner plate and weighs about 80-120 and sells for 30000+

 

[BaDaBooM]

I find it funny that people with no experience in manufacturing, or knowing people who manufacture things, claim "but it's just a couple of tubes and some contact screws!!!" It's like people who have no job or property complaining that taxes aren't high enough.

Machining is expensive work. People simply refuse to understand that MOD makers aren't "artificially propping up prices by withholding supply" but scratching together whatever money they can in order to make whatever size run they can in order to sell them at a profit.

Learn something about what it costs to machine parts, then have an opinion.

Most expensive part of it all is the testing period, might look all good on the computer screen but doesn't work off the machine.

I know these guys are not making much money because they are not expanding. Look at what house hybrids are working with its tiny.
A PBusardo Video A Fireside Chat With Zen Pt 2 - YouTube

 

[BaDaBooM]

Interesting what he has got to say here too A PBusardo Video A Fireside Chat With Zen Pt 2 - YouTube

 

[hexagondun]

I find it funny that people with no experience in manufacturing, or knowing people who manufacture things, claim "but it's just a couple of tubes and some contact screws!!!" It's like people who have no job or property complaining that taxes aren't high enough.

Machining is expensive work. People simply refuse to understand that MOD makers aren't "artificially propping up prices by withholding supply" but scratching together whatever money they can in order to make whatever size run they can in order to sell them at a profit.

Learn something about what it costs to machine parts, then have an opinion.

I honestly thought this way too for a while. I don't know anything about machining, so who am I to say? That was until China started cranking out really solid 1:1 clones with less voltage drop than the originals. Then I watched that interview in which they discussed the big guys selling schematics to china prior to U.S. releases and it sort of bolstered my convictions.

In what way(s) is the infinite stingray clone different from the original? Please don't say "phantom brass".

If China can make a decent clone for $30, I think any minor discrepency in QC is entirely forgiveable-- and this is what I've personally seen: minor differences. Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather support US manufacturing; if they are selling plans to the china, however, i consider them no better than those producing clones; actually, if that's the case, they're worse.


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[BaDaBooM]

I honestly thought this way too for a while. I don't know anything about machining, so who am I to say? That was until China started cranking out really solid 1:1 clones with less voltage drop than the originals. Then I watched that interview in which they discussed the big guys selling schematics to china prior to U.S. releases and it sort of bolstered my happiness with clones. In what way is the infinite stingray different from the original. Please don't say "phantom brass".


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That's not we are talking about, we talking about how much it costs to manufacture mods in the west. China don't pay the taxes we do, they don't have health and safety, they don't have energy costs like we do, they don,t pay the insurances we do and they almost have slave labor.

I'm not saying don't buy from china, I buy plenty of clones and other crap from china daily but don't trash talk honest mod makers trying to make a buck.

 

[hexagondun]

That's not we are talking about, we talking about how much it costs to manufacture mods in the west. China don't pay the taxes we do, they don't have health and safety, they don't have energy costs like we do, they don,t pay the insurances we do and they almost have slave labor.

I'm not saying don't buy from china, I buy plenty of clones and other crap from china daily but don't trash talk honest mod makers trying to make a buck.

Yes, you're absolutely right-- labor laws. I wonder, though: $20-$40 vs. $200-350-- are labor laws and regulation really that crippling? I'd like to know more.

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