Clones... Why?

[hexagondun]

That's not we are talking about, we talking about how much it costs to manufacture mods in the west. China don't pay the taxes we do, they don't have health and safety, they don't have energy costs like we do, they don,t pay the insurances we do and they almost have slave labor.

I'm not saying don't buy from china, I buy plenty of clones and other crap from china daily but don't trash talk honest mod makers trying to make a buck.

Also, if these guys are selling to China and allowing their products to be made without labor regulation, then this just seems to prove that they really DON'T care about manufacturing in the US, and that they shouldn't pretend to be penniless victims of labor laws, unwilling to outsource production and compromise they're beautiful proprietary designs. Thoughts?
I am genuinely interested in finding a reason to give American companies my money at those prices. If there is no behind the scenes nonsense, then I'd never order from fasttech again. I'll never buy a Hana clone.

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[GreMos90]

Wow. That was ALOT of reading... As long as the performance is of equal I'd be happy with either.

 

[hexagondun]

Wow. That was ALOT of reading... As long as the performance is of equal I'd be happy with either.

Exactly how I feel, for the most part.

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[2naphish]

I would pay $160 for a $150 mod to have it completely free of any logo or serial number
I don't mind small logos like on the GP Paps. I could well live without serial numbers. Just looking at my (both clones) Nemesis with a 3D atty; crowded busy design. Logo + logo, serial number + logo + logo and another serial number. Looks silly to me.

For the Rolex analogy earlier on: It doesn't work for me. Simply because (as I stated earlier) not all $200 mods can justify their price, no matter what they cost to design, prototype, re-design and manufacture. A lot of new mod designers want in on the "high end" market with their very first, sometimes flawed designs and not-exactly-top-notch manufacturing.

my fav and most beautiful mod is the Talon by Versa.. nude tube and other than their logo on the switch (which i can't see when using or sitting) no markings, just class..same with the topper i have on it. a raiju rda..works wonderfully and draws a lot of comments...total price $320. but i am in this for the long haul..spent 40 yrs on the cigs...looking to spend 40 more without.

 

[BaDaBooM]

Yes, you're absolutely right-- labor laws. I wonder, though, $20-$40 vs. $200-350-- are labor laws and regulation really that crippling? I'd like to know more.

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There are tons of factors that play in, China has mega production factories that don't just make mod clones, they will do a clone mod run of say 5000 mods (I'm guessing) and then make something else like brake calipers to keep the factories running 24/7. If they were to only make mod clones the market would be flooded so they have to change what they make.
They have hundreds of ppl reverse engineering and doing R&D at such a low cost the west can't even compete.
Its kind of like when Ford started to make the Model T on assembly lines, nobody could compete.

You can ask yourself why apple products are made in china and then shipped back to us in the west with import taxes and all that crap but is still somehow cheaper to make a Iphone in china.

A report written by three U.S. professors showed that only about “$10 or less in direct labor wages goes into an iPhone or iPad is paid to Chinese workers.”

How Much Of The iPhone Is 'Made In China'? - Forbes
Remember it was $10 for workers not worker.

Ask yourself why we don't have mega factories that can produce basically anything like china can at such a low cost. Its not the mod makers fault its that we get taxed on everything.

It's ridicules to bash hard working mod makers and just say "well china can do it at this price why can't you"

 

[icemanistheking]

I honestly thought this way too for a while. I don't know anything about machining, so who am I to say? That was until China started cranking out really solid 1:1 clones with less voltage drop than the originals. Then I watched that interview in which they discussed the big guys selling schematics to china prior to U.S. releases and it sort of bolstered my convictions.

In what way(s) is the infinite stingray clone different from the original? Please don't say "phantom brass".

If China can make a decent clone for $30, I think any minor discrepency in QC is entirely forgiveable-- and this is what I've personally seen: minor differences. Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather support US manufacturing; if they are selling plans to the china, however, i consider them no better than those producing clones; actually, if that's the case, they're worse.


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So who are "the big guys" that sold schematics? Who said they did? I see this thrown around a lot but never any source given-not trying to be offensive, but it comes off like a word-of-mouth rumor that spread like wildfire among people that bought clones and felt they needed to justify their purchase.

 

[hexagondun]

So who are "the big guys" that sold schematics? Who said they did? I see this thrown around a lot but never any source given-not trying to be offensive, but it comes off like a word-of-mouth rumor that spread like wildfire among people that bought clones and felt they needed to justify their purchase.

Let me see if I can find the link to the vid. I saw it on the cali vapers forum, but it was linked from here. I'll find it.

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[Maurice Pudlo]

All it takes is a good set of measuring tools and a real mod. Even without a mod on hand enough pictures and some reference to size can be used to extrapolate the real measurements.

Maurice

 

[WattWick]

Also, if these guys are selling to China and allowing their products to be made without labor regulation, then this just seems to prove that they really DON'T care about manufacturing in the US, and that they shouldn't pretend to be penniless victims of labor laws, unwilling to outsource production and compromise they're beautiful proprietary designs. Thoughts?
I am genuinely interested in finding a reason to give American companies my money at those prices. If there is no behind the scenes nonsense, then I'd never order from fasttech again. I'll never buy a Hana clone.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Fixed the size of that if for you. An "if" doesn't prove anything.

Until proven otherwise, I choose to believe this is pure speculation. It simply does not make sense to me. What would such a blueprint go for? What would be a high enough price for the designer, yet low enough to not make it more profitable for the cloner to simply ... well... clone it? $1.000? Would you sell your design for that amount? $10.000? Would you pay that when you can probably have your R&D guys reverse engineer it in half a day?

 

[hexagondun]

Fixed the size of that if for you. An "if" doesn't prove anything.

Until proven otherwise, I choose to believe this is pure speculation. It simply does not make sense to me. What would such a blueprint go for? What would be a high enough price for the designer, yet low enough to not make it more profitable for the cloner to simply ... well... clone it? $1.000? Would you sell your design for that amount? $10.000? Would you pay that when you can probably have your R&D guys reverse engineer it in half a day?

All really good points-- loads of if's, for sure. My real fear, however, is that they're not only selling a design--though that is all I heard in the video interview-- but actually paying for manufacturing in China.

As it stands, I can't even remember who the interview was with! Who knows if there is truth to any of it, but it kinda made sense when I first heard it. If I recall correctly, the main topic of conversation was the fact that a photograph of some new mech design was leaked on a Chinese website way before the original manufacturer released any information at all; then, when they did, everything matched up perfectly; then, some guy actually admitted to doing just that!

I do know that this all sounds really silly 'cause i don't have any links at all, but I am really surprised that no one following this thread has seen the same video interview. It was in response to a blog post by someone entitled "Clones: The Real Thing?", or something like that. I've Googled that title too and still cannot come up with anything at all. I'll definitely keep looking

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[Maurice Pudlo]

See on a business stand point your friend would be the man to talk to. But he is right. For one man to make the entire nemi would take at least 4 hours and that's if you don't engrave and do a have ads job but if one man made it I would think it would take about 12 hours doesn't count engraving or checking for flaws or any of the crucial pre ship duties. So for 500 to be pushed out in a week you would need about 20 ppl

I imagine if I were making them I'd chip out a bunch of single parts, say switch bases; that way I could limit setup time some. I assume the tubes start as DOM heavy wall tubing, that might limit how many passes are needed to bore and surface to the right dimensions. I can't imagine trying to drill an 18.5mm hole through solid bar stock and make money at it.

I might pose the how long would it take question on a metalworking forum I belong to, I'm sure that will be an interesting thread.

Maurice

 

[Judge Dredd]

I'll only say it once: be civil.

 

[BaDaBooM]

All really good points-- loads of if's, for sure. My real fear, however, is that they're not only selling a design--though that is all I heard in the video interview-- but actually paying for manufacturing in China.

As it stands, I can't even remember who the interview was with! Who knows if there is truth to any of it, but it kinda made sense when I first heard it. If I recall correctly, the main topic of conversation was the fact that a photograph of some new mech design was leaked on a Chinese website way before the original manufacturer released any information at all; then, when they did, everything matched up perfectly; then, some guy actually admitted to doing just that!

I do know that this all sounds really silly 'cause i don't have any links at all, but I am really surprised that no one following this thread has seen the same video interview. It was in response to a blog post by someone entitled "Clones: The Real Thing?", or something like that. I've Googled that title too and still cannot come up with anything at all. I'll definitely keep looking

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Even if they are selling their designs to china its not a bad thing, let them get paid. They have spent silly amount of time designing those mods and could never afford to put them into FULL production (this we know because they are always sold out).
Its like designing a new brake disc, most ppl could never afford to put into production so you go to the car giants and sell the design to them.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

I don't see how that makes sense because the originals I see are like max $70 and I've never seen a clone for $7... Besides the MCV Panzer I've never seen a vape over a hunnit dolla dolla bill y'all ($100) haha

max $70? for WHAT?

 

[Chelonian]

This reminds me of all the right wing vs left wing debates here in the states.

As for the guy that wanted to talk more about regualtions making it a higher cost to manufacture in the west - the second you are willing to work under the pay and conditions that the Chinese do, lets talk.

If an original mod takes 4 hours, and has around $50-$60 in parts, and costs $200 - that's $37.50 an hour.

Not getting rich by any means.

Say it takes 2 hours (impossible unless the guy has machines that run other jobs - mods alone would not provide the ROI for such investment) that would be good income - until you realize that that's not all income...you have to pay for power, bits for your lathe, absorb the cost of bad runs...yah no original manufacturer is getting rich.

I am sorry if you disagree - but logic is a b*tch.

Really guys, for the most part we have on one side conspiracy theories of shady backroom deals with the Chinese, talk of rigged markets, and rationalization of buying products that ripoff the original, for whatever reason.

On the other side, you have people trying to figure out what it would really cost to manufacture a mod for a small one to 5 man operation...not a Chinese megafactory.

Come, on, really?

The fact is, the original guys are trying to make a living is all. Nothing evil.

If you can afford to smoke, you can afford an original. Maybe you don't want to, but you can.

If you want to buy a ripoff because it's cheaper, don't attack the guys who make the originals. Just pick up your counterfeit and vape.

 

[BaDaBooM]

This reminds me of all the right wing vs left wing debates here in the states.

As for the guy that wanted to talk more about regualtions making it a higher cost to manufacture in the west - the second you are willing to work under the pay and conditions that the Chinese do, lets talk.

If an original mod takes 4 hours, and has around $50-$60 in parts, and costs $200 - that's $37.50 and hour.

Not getting rich by any means.

Say it takes 2 hours (impossible unless the guy has machines that run other jobs - mods alone would not provide the ROI for such investment) that would be good income - until you realize that that's not all income...you have to pay for power, bits for your lathe, absorb the cost of bad runs...yah no original manufacturer is getting rich.

I am sorry if you disagree - but logic is a b*tch.

Really guys, for the most part we have on one side conspiracy theories of shady backroom deals with the Chinese, talk of rigged markets, and rationalization of buying products that ripoff the original, for whatever reason.

On the other side, you have people trying to figure out what it would really cost to manufacture a mod for a small one to 5 man operation...not a Chinese megafactory.

Come, on, really?

The fact is, the original guys are trying to make a living is all. Nothing evil.

If you can afford to smoke, you can afford an original. Maybe you don't want to, but you can.

If you want to buy a ripoff because it's cheaper, don't attack the guys who make the originals. Just pick up your counterfeit and vape.

Wow somebody with a brain

 

[havoc1967]

As of right now I only own 1 clone, a Nemesis from HCigar, and it is fantastic! I have however owned more clones than I care to admit (so much for saving money). I sold or gave them away. Not because they didn't work, they worked fine. I just finally found my "happy place", which is Provari and Silver Bullets. They are what I use 90% of the time. The remainder of the time is either my Smoktech Natural or Nemesis clone with drippers.
I can justify spending the money on a Provari, because it is just that good. Same thing for the Silver Bullet. But a genuine mechanical costing several hundred dollars? No way, not worth it to me. To others it is, to each their own. I know myself though, if I had a genuine Nemesis I would never use it - I would use the $40 HCigar Nemesis clone which by all accounts is 1:1 and a great performer. The genuine Nemesis would be locked away wrapped in something to protect it

 

[Flt Simulation]

It's not only China ... The Philippines has now gotten into the e-cig business too. But, I don't believe they are manufacturing any 'clones' as far as I know. They are manufacturing tube mods of there own design and selling them at a big big profit here in the US:

I lived in the Philippines for 5 years (2006 - 2011) ... The average Filipino factory worker in the Manila metro area makes about 250 Pesos ($5.70) per day.

These Filipino companies are making a KILLING on these mods you folks are buying from them!

Nope, there not clones per say ... but they are manufactured with very cheap labor, but selling them at "non-clone" prices.

 

[hexagondun]

I'm really not sure about any of this fellas, but we'll talk in a year when the latest iteration of the chi you is $75.99 and DNA100's are a dime a dozen.

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[Chelonian]

Well, look at it this way - to me a stamp is a stamp is a stamp. But to a collector, it's very different. To me NASCAR is a bunch of nothing...but it's religion to many here. $75 for a ball cap? Not for me.

But I don't bash those folks.

To me, an original mod is worth it for what it is, not what it's made of(and if you think that Chinese metals are up to the standards of western materials...). I would consider clones supporting counterfeiting.

If the clones are as good, then let them make their own designs for $25.

Why don't they? Because they are trading on the name and design of the original to make money, which is textbook counterfeiting.

I don't run around bashing NASCAR or stamp collectors.

Don't through stones at folks who like originals....especially if you are buying cheap knock offs.

That's all.

edit for full disclosure -

I have bought two clones, to see if I wanted the originals - and the I bought the originals. I look at them and don't like myself for doing it. Shouldn't have done it, did it, won't ever again.