Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.
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Yep. Bad as it is. And I am not so sure that the juice side of it does not need a bit of hammering.
But as with anything the gummit does it will be too big of a hammer and they will hit the wrong targets.
I have to wonder if the EU had not been cracking down over there would Cloud 9 even have tested?
I doubt it.
Don't get me wrong I am not for the FDA hammering down on the vaping industry but much of the vaping industry has done little to regulate itself for the safety of it's consumers. And has helped the FDA's efforts along...
But as with anything the gummit does it will be too big of a hammer and they will hit the wrong targets.
I have to wonder if the EU had not been cracking down over there would Cloud 9 even have tested?
I doubt it.
Don't get me wrong I am not for the FDA hammering down on the vaping industry but much of the vaping industry has done little to regulate itself for the safety of it's consumers. And has helped the FDA's efforts along...
that is because, as Dr. F. pointed out, it has probably been misdiagnosed as COPD.
Even wikipedia has that written up about diketones...can be misdiagnosed as COPD, ASTHMA, etc.
Like many people, I took up vaping for harm reduction.
I can't support eliquid makers who have AP diketone levels that are 10X or even 100x the levels that a pack of cigs had, because it is not in keeping with HARM REDUCTION.
Hmm diketones... Just a thought My wife quit smoking 20 years ago, I just quit 6 months ago. She loves microwave butter flavored popcorn, I never eat it. She has a spot of emphysema diagnosed in one lung. Mine are clear.... Diacetyl? I dunno but just thought of this now....
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Gosh........what a NOVEL idea.
I"m sure you noticed the 5P test results were pulled from C9 on legal advisement.
So, not only is the customer buying the stuff not entitled to test results from Five Pawns, but now the retailer who carries them is head-locked by lawyering and politicking for posting theirs.
the end result is.......we don't count. (But are always being told to make "informed decisions" by non-medically trained bottle- fillers.)
I'm glad I made a decision last year to get my facts and advice from Dr. F. I think he's the only person I trust anymore. He had no "coin" in his advisements.
Agree the ejuice manufacturers can at least let us know what is in our juice we buy so we as consumers can make an informed decision whether to use it or not. But to deceive us about it's contents is inexcusable and any company knowingly doing this deserves to be out of business. If they honestly did not know that is another matter... However it would have been responsible behavior to find out what was in what they were selling once the diketone risk was discovered.
Robert, if this was last year, I could agree.
When Dr. F's study came out finding 74% of eliquids tested had diketones who said there weren't any, the benefit of doubt was given. they didn't know.
Names were not named. Blessings. It was suggested that the only way to know was to test.
It is well over a year later.........sorry, but anyone who didn't get on the stick after that, and anyone still LYING to their customers about what is in their ejuice...
NO ABSOLUTION GIVEN, at least, not by me.
if all you ever vaped was buttery flavors and you did so all day for many years, there might be some danger. Might but not for sure. We know smokers get large daily exposures and yet they don't get this form of bronchiolitis. Any diacetyl-related disease has occurred in industrial settings. There is that one case where a man won a lawsuit but he worked with cleaning chemicals for many years as well and those chemicals also cause the disease. A jury doesn't operate on science but on emotion.
Put the risks in perspective: I willingly enter my car which exposes me to many risks from chemical exposure to fatal crashes. I willingly ingest alcohol which clearly can cause all sorts of nastiness. I lovingly consume fatty and sugary foods and we all know how great that is for you. I exist as a frail human being on a planet full of nasty bugs that can kill me surrounded by people and their progress industry which pollutes my air with all kinds of crap that can kill me. Some of those same people will kill me just because I got in their way on a bad day. Am I really that afraid of buttery vapes? Maybe a little. And I do limit my exposure. But dang! Let's try to get a grip and see things as they are and not as we fear them to be.
Put the risks in perspective: I willingly enter my car which exposes me to many risks from chemical exposure to fatal crashes. I willingly ingest alcohol which clearly can cause all sorts of nastiness. I lovingly consume fatty and sugary foods and we all know how great that is for you. I exist as a frail human being on a planet full of nasty bugs that can kill me surrounded by people and their progress industry which pollutes my air with all kinds of crap that can kill me. Some of those same people will kill me just because I got in their way on a bad day. Am I really that afraid of buttery vapes? Maybe a little. And I do limit my exposure. But dang! Let's try to get a grip and see things as they are and not as we fear them to be.
But wouldn't you like to know which ejuice had how much in them so you could decide?
THAT is my point. And if they lied to us about it... They do deserve to burn a bit.
And a correction I said diketones in my previous post but meant Diacetyl, my bad. Diketones is still a bit up in the air.
I choose to vape CAP Vanilla Custard which has no diacetly but has diketones. But I stand by my previous statements. This is my informed choice, I know that CAP V1 Vanilla custard has some diketones in it. I feel at this point that it is still not as bad as smokiing but data may prove me wrong and I will change my vaping habits. But it is MY INFORMED decision. If Capella is lying to me about Diacetyl then they deserve to burn as well.
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So you are disregarding that is because it may have been misdiagnosed as COPD, ASTHMA, etc.
I see I'm not gonna get anyone off the incessant convo about BO, as I already explained.
Somebody PM me if Five Pawns ever reveals their testing results. For now, I'm out.
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You can't make informed decisions if you are being lied to!
Not knowing at this stage in the game is willful ignorance at the LEAST and more probably the selective sharing of information in the name of profit.
From where does this bottomless pit of sycophantic forgiveness come from? What is it about one's favored corporations in enthusiast fields (gaming, vaping, etc) that inspires the kind of boundless tolerance and acceptance typically seen beaten across the face of country wives?
Not knowing at this stage in the game is willful ignorance at the LEAST and more probably the selective sharing of information in the name of profit.
From where does this bottomless pit of sycophantic forgiveness come from? What is it about one's favored corporations in enthusiast fields (gaming, vaping, etc) that inspires the kind of boundless tolerance and acceptance typically seen beaten across the face of country wives?
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I agree that more information is better. If the industry ever hopes to be viewed as more legitimate than the cigarette industry then it needs to step up and be transparent.
The only way you could make a good analogy out of that is if some cars exposed you to chemical exposure and fatal crashes, and others did not. In other words, all cars share the same hazards; not all liquids contain diactyle and other diketones.
Yep and we as consumers need to know which ones and how much so we can decide whether to use their products. Kinda like deciding not to buy a Yugo after their lack of durability was exposed or a flameobile Pinto?
That strikes me as pure conjecture. BO is a different disease than COPD and other respiratory diseases. It results in different looking cells in a biopsy. So, yes, I am disregarding that because there is not a shred of evidence that this is the case. When I see a study showing that X% of COPD or Asthma cases were actually early BO cases, then you have something.
I'm just calling for a bit of perspective. I agree 100% that the industry needs to be transparent. They need to be the most transparent industry in existence if they ever want to be seen as "respectable." At the same time, we don't actually have any idea what the risk of contracting any disease from vaping any particular chemical in any e liquid is. What if there is actually nothing to be transparent about? Perhaps more realistically, what if the risks from vaping these chemicals is so low as to be trivial?
So much of these kinds of debates strike me as akin to the GMO scare. So much push for transparency in labeling. "We want to be informed!" And for what? There is no risk to be informed about! In the case of GMOs, calls for transparency are a solution in want of a problem.
IOW, let's see actual facts before we start the Fear, Uncertainty and Doom.
Is COPD a disease or a symptom of other afflictions?
I really do not know.
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Found this.
COPD includes two lung problems:
I really do not know.
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Found this.
COPD includes two lung problems:
- "Chronic bronchitis" is increased cough and mucus production caused by inflammation of the airways. Bronchitis is considered chronic (or long-term) if a person coughs and produces excess mucus most days during three months in a year, for two years in a row.
- "Emphysema" is associated with damage of the air sacs and/or collapse of the smallest breathing tubes in the lungs.
The larger point was that using a car for its intended purpose is far more likely to harm/kill you than vaping a butter flavor.
this from the below link.
As mentioned previously, the symptoms of "popcorn lung" are primarily cough and shortness of breath. These symptoms can develop slowly and subtly, gradually progressing to more disabling symptoms over time. Some patients may complain of fevers, night sweats, and weight loss. Severe exposure as seen in microwave popcorn plant workers may include inflammation of the skin and mucosal surfaces (eyes, nose, and/or throat). In general, however, because the symptoms are so similar to tobacco-related COPD as well as asthma, the diagnosis may be difficult to make without a high level of suspicion.
Popcorn Lung (Bronchiolitis Obliterans) Symptoms and Causes - MedicineNet
As mentioned previously, the symptoms of "popcorn lung" are primarily cough and shortness of breath. These symptoms can develop slowly and subtly, gradually progressing to more disabling symptoms over time. Some patients may complain of fevers, night sweats, and weight loss. Severe exposure as seen in microwave popcorn plant workers may include inflammation of the skin and mucosal surfaces (eyes, nose, and/or throat). In general, however, because the symptoms are so similar to tobacco-related COPD as well as asthma, the diagnosis may be difficult to make without a high level of suspicion.
Popcorn Lung (Bronchiolitis Obliterans) Symptoms and Causes - MedicineNet
Even if your data points weren't pulled out of your -edit- patookas -edit- that is a terrible analogy.
Yes. In the early stages, asthma, COPD and BO can appear similar. But if someone is diagnosed as having BO, it's because a biopsy came back with the specific type of cell damage seen in BO: fibrous scarring. COPD has other types of damage that are specific to it. Asthma is entirely different.
Dr. Farsalinos should make it clear when his opinion is based on specific research findings or when he is engaging in educated guessing.
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