FDA Commissioner warns it could be ‘game over’ for popular e-cigarettes if use continues to rise among y

[sofarsogood]

E-cigarettes could be banned in US, FDA says

Why not threaten this for unhealthy food or opiods or tobacco or alcohol?

(Are you done stocking up?)

 

[Zazie]

Almost.

 

[zoiDman]

Somewhere, there is a Bunch of Lawyers getting all Lined Up...

The tobacco Control Act does not:

The law makes clear that FDA's role is to regulate and protect the public health, but it places a few restrictions on FDA's powers. FDA cannot:

• Require prescriptions to purchase tobacco products.
• Require the reduction of nicotine yields to zero.
• Ban face-to-face sales in a particular category of retail outlets.
• Ban certain classes of tobacco products.

Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act - An Overview

 

[stols001]

Wheph it's nice to know Gottleib is still hard at work during the government shut down.

So is my sis (she is a lawyer in an "I guess" still top secret but "essential" government program but she's not getting paid.)

I have no idea her stance on teen vaping, but she was rather moderate in her response to like, her own teen's alcohol experimentation. LOL they went to couples therapy, discussed it, had a mild sit down with some minorish consequences and a bit of a stern talking to including locking of the liquor cabinet and such, and graver commentary about what would happen if it happened again.

LOL if only she ran the FDA, and/or parented "Juuling" teens everywhere.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

What irritates me about this one is it’s not actually about vaping. When vaping came out a lot of youth that would otherwise have smoked cigarettes vaped instead. This rise in youth vaping had a commensurate drop in youth smoking even though the general numbers remained the same. The anti smoking groups took credit for their previously useless programs suddenly “working” and gave vaping no credit at all. Now they’re stuck though, and find themselves supporting smoking over vaping so they can continue to be funded. It’s all BS.

 

[zoiDman]

What irritates me about this one is it’s not actually about vaping. When vaping came out a lot of youth that would otherwise have smoked cigarettes vaped instead. ...

Isn't though kinda a Two Way Street?

Because aren't there a lot of Kids who are Vaping that would Never have Smoked?

 

[bombastinator]

Isn't though kinda a Two Way Street?

Because aren't there a lot of Kids who are Vaping that would Never have Smoked?

Statistically afaik the number of kids who are either vaping or smoking has remained about the same for several years.

 

[zoiDman]

Statistically afaik the number of kids who are either vaping or smoking has remained about the same for several years.

If that is True, then the Only Kids who are Non-Smoking Vapers are X-Smokers. And that seems Hard to believe.

Don't get me wrong. I'm Not Condoning what the FDA is Doing. But perhaps it is because of Different reasoning.

 

[bombastinator]

If that is True, then the Only Kids who are Non-Smoking Vapers are X-Smokers. And that seems Hard to believe.

Don't get me wrong. I'm Not Condoning what the FDA is Doing. But perhaps it is because of Different reasoning.

No, I’m talking percentage per year not person by person

 

[Buckeyevapen]

I saw the article when it came out. I just don’t understand: why not fine the convince stores for selling to minors? Oh wait I know why; there isn’t any money in that logical idea. But let’s make sure that hard working adults aren’t allowed to decide for themselves cause there is PLENTY of money in that.

Ugh.

Start writing

 

[Opinionated]

I saw the article when it came out. I just don’t understand: why not fine the convince stores for selling to minors? Oh wait I know why; there isn’t any money in that logical idea. But let’s make sure that hard working adults aren’t allowed to decide for themselves cause there is PLENTY of money in that.

Ugh.

Start writing

I'm going from memory here, but in age verification compliance checks the FDA found a 97 or 98 % compliance rate in 2017.

I'm sure it's not decreased in 2018, for the most part, convenience stores and other outlets are as compliant as they have been, if not moreso, for more than a decade or two now.

There is simply a small percentage of teens (usually between 15-20%) who can get creative and manage to overcome age verification and get their hands on age restricted products whether it's alcohol or tobacco or ecigarettes.

Whether its through parental assistance or the older sibling or, or, or, some kids have always managed to figure out how to get age restricted products...

It's no shocker, its been like this since I was a kid. I started smoking at the age of 13, and it was an age restricted product at the time, we all managed to get our hands on age restricted products at a very young age, regardless of which decade that occurred.

Not many people started smoking after the age of 18.. some I'm sure, but most started before the legal age to purchase. There is nothing, not even prohibition, that will stop it either.

 

[stols001]

It's not complicated. The subset of risk taking teens of the past who took to smoking, are now (today) the subset of risk taking teens who take to vaping.

Until the FDA take on the teen problem of subsidizing the homeless to buy the teens vapes (let alone the parents they steal vapes from) they will be able to continue to demonize the convenience stores, because I am going to BET (I have not seen a study, but I would stake my life on it) that most vapes teens get are not purchased directly from the teen by gas stations at ALL.

My local gas station is a known HIVE of illegal activity (and I love it.) It has the largest vending machine for condoms in the bathroom and the clerks will card you if you look young. Most of the folks hanging about look pretty old though, old enough to get carded, etc.

I say leave the gas stations ALONE I enjoy a splash of local color here and there, every once in awhile. And it's always good to know that if I need a "hard to find" sort of good or service, I know where to go. I mean, I DON'T need these services, but I do rather enjoy knowing where they are, etc.

Anna

 

[dripster]

Isn't though kinda a Two Way Street?

Because aren't there a lot of Kids who are Vaping that would Never have Smoked?

From: PHE publishes independent expert e-cigarettes evidence review

• the evidence does not support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people (youth smoking rates in the UK continue to decline, regular use is rare and is almost entirely confined to those who have smoked)

(Emphasis in bold is mine.)

 

[dripster]

Furthermore, this is how the evidence does not support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people:
https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2018/01/06/why_vaping_isnt_a_gateway_to_smoking.html

 

[keelalagirl55]

From: PHE publishes independent expert e-cigarettes evidence review

• the evidence does not support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people (youth smoking rates in the UK continue to decline, regular use is rare and is almost entirely confined to those who have smoked)

(Emphasis in bold is mine.)

Furthermore, this is how the evidence does not support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people:
https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2018/01/06/why_vaping_isnt_a_gateway_to_smoking.html

If only our politicians and government truly dealt in facts The only "facts" they care about are those that reinforce their own biases and preconceived notions. Such a sad state to be in.

 

[zoiDman]

Statistically afaik the number of kids who are either vaping or smoking has remained about the same for several years.

So you don't think there has been an Increase in Teen Never-Smokers from 2017 till today?

 

[stols001]

I think there has been an increase, Zoid.

But, that's like saying the rate of HIV sexually transmitted diseases has gone down, but the rate of HEP C infections has also gone UP. One is treatable, the other is curable.

The increase in never-smoking teen vapers ONLY is of concern if you don't also look at the fact that ALL teen smoking use has gone down.

If you take your one (out of context) statement-- never smoking teens are going up, OMG! It doesn't look that great.

If you make the next logical assumption and look at teen smoking rates going down, well you are gazing at the SAME population in a snapshot moment in time, and while one might state, "Yes, it's bad that never-smoking teens have vaped," it is equally as valid to state "Teen smoking has gone down, period."

If you don't want there to be a causal relationship between the two, fine. I think there IS one. I think teens who might otherwise have smoked are now vaping. I take zero issue with that. I am of the belief that a certain subset of teens are going to be terrible, tragic, un-law abiding creatures, I was one, I have met an infinitude in my life, and focusing on any of it (other than treatment, consequences, and even getting locked up for some stuff) is just a waste of time.

It's not the substance that is the issue, it's the behavior of the substance user, and harm reduction IN never smoking teens who take up vaping IS harm reduction PERIOD because otherwise they would be doing something else, like smoking.

Like Hep C, it's not super fantastic but oh boy does it beat a case of HIV.

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

I think there has been an increase, Zoid.

But, that's like saying the rate of HIV sexually transmitted diseases has gone down, but the rate of HEP C infections has also gone UP. One is treatable, the other is curable.

The increase in never-smoking teen vapers ONLY is of concern if you don't also look at the fact that ALL teen smoking use has gone down.

If you take your one (out of context) statement-- never smoking teens are going up, OMG! It doesn't look that great.

If you make the next logical assumption and look at teen smoking rates going down, well you are gazing at the SAME population in a snapshot moment in time, and while one might state, "Yes, it's bad that never-smoking teens have vaped," it is equally as valid to state "Teen smoking has gone down, period."

If you don't want there to be a causal relationship between the two, fine. I think there IS one. I think teens who might otherwise have smoked are now vaping. I take zero issue with that. I am of the belief that a certain subset of teens are going to be terrible, tragic, un-law abiding creatures, I was one, I have met an infinitude in my life, and focusing on any of it (other than treatment, consequences, and even getting locked up for some stuff) is just a waste of time.

It's not the substance that is the issue, it's the behavior of the substance user, and harm reduction IN never smoking teens who take up vaping IS harm reduction PERIOD because otherwise they would be doing something else, like smoking.

Like Hep C, it's not super fantastic but oh boy does it beat a case of HIV.

Anna

I Don't think anyone here is disputing that there isn't a Direct Correlation between e-Cigarettes and a Decrease of Underage Smoking Rates.

Where the Questions come in is what is Appropriate Policy by the FDA regarding Teen/Kid Never-Smokers who are Now Daily Vapers? And what are Realistic and Acceptable Percentages of Teen/Kid Never-Smoker Daily Vapers.

I'm a Realist Anna. And believe that All Public Policy has to start with a Quantified Amount of Projected Success.

Because if a Policy Can't Succeed, or has a Low Threshold of success , you Shouldn't be implementing the Policy. Especially if the Policy has adverse effects on another segment of the Population.

I'm about the Last Person you are going to run into that wants to see a Never-Smokers using an e-Cigarette. And I have a Hard Time justifying something like a 20% Underage Vaping Rate to achieve a 2% decrease in Underage Smoking.

But None of this Really Matters. Either For. Or Against.

Because the Fundamental Question at the Very Bottom of all this is Can the FDA do Anything to Stop, or at least, Severely Reduce Teen/Kid Never-Smokers (short of an Absolute Ban) who now are Daily Vapers?

 

[Rossum]

Isn't though kinda a Two Way Street?
Because aren't there a lot of Kids who are Vaping that would Never have Smoked?

My daughter tells me that among "kids" her age, smoking is no longer cool, or socially acceptable, but vaping is. (FWIW, she's now in her third year of college and neither smokes nor vapes.)

If we accept this to be true, we have to ask ourselves some questions:

To what degree would smoking have become uncool/unacceptable if vaping didn't exist as an alternative?

How many kids who "would never have smoked" fit into that category only because an alternative exists?

But assuming there are "kids" that vape who would never never have smoked even if no alternative existed, where is the harm in that? The only thing anyone can point at is "a lifetime of nicotine addiction". Funny thing is, you don't hear them talk about banning energy drinks out of fear of a "lifetime of caffeine addiction", yet most people who start on caffeine do so in their teens. Oh, and don't give me the "Nicotine is harmful to the adolescent brain" nonsense either; I don't buy it. Look at the smoking rates of scientists and engineers in the 1960s; the guys who put man on the moon using slide rules and invented most of the technology we use now. Somehow, I don't think they started smoking only after their brains were fully developed in their mid 20s.

 

[zoiDman]

...

If we accept this to be true, we have to ask ourselves some questions:

To what degree would smoking have become uncool/unacceptable if vaping didn't exist as an alternative?

...

I don't have Definitive answers to some of the Question posted here. Even some of my own.

But when it comes to this one, I believe that before e-Cigarettes entered the market, Teen/Kid Smoking Rates had Fallen and the Stabilized to a Baseline where the they Can't go any lower no mater what is done or happens.

Short of Removing Cigarettes from the Market of course.