In all the turmoil, easy to forget the really good news today - PG leaves no deposit. So it is very likely that PEG-400 also will not.
Decomposition of VG to acrolein
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Give us some real evidence that vaping anything produces something. Don't give us 'acrolein is produced at boiling point', give us test results based on what you are convinced of. You have made so many pronouncements without real physical evidence, just circumstantial and anecdotal. If there is a problem I want to know about it in an independent, factual and relevant scientific report. Get it tested and you will have the credibility you seek.
Alan.
Please don't patronise me. I have asked you for evidence, are you going to get some tests done? Two suppliers have had tests done and published the results, you haven't. I think it's time to put up or shut up and if you are really serious about this toxin then you will make the tests happen.
Alan.
I am not really sure what the e-cigs juice is...I know TW's is a mixture of both. I don't know if it's on their website...I shall have to have a look. I have washed the labels off of the bottles now so I can't check them.
with regards to the black bits I just put a bit of tissue up the mouthpiece and wiped it around and it pulled out a couple of very tiny little black bits that must have been stuck to the mesh which I have put in the mouthpiece..I hadn't expected the mesh to catch anything but put it in there just for the hell of it....now I don't know what to think......perhaps there really should be a filter in the air flow.
With regards to the Ecopure ..I have only just started using it and quite like it.....Ted has reported the longest lasting mini pipe atomizer either of us have had yet using it....perhaps the reason is because it has so few other additives. ..Perhaps it would be even better if it was made with PG or even this PEG ...it might be worth Intellicig's looking into it.
When it comes to the possibility of acrolyn...I imagine the laboratory tests are done under pretty ideal conditions and so do not reflect real world vaping. It is good that we openly discuss it. It isn't about trying to scare anyone.
Interesting Pete, I think Kin. did a test with a ciggie filter ?
Letzin, not a lot of point in bashing people who are trying to find out,
I doubt if any of us has the cash for a GCMS instrument, or even for
a single contract-lab analysis.
(what warrior was that again Kate?)
But perhaps we should ask EcoPure to clarify this ? :
Edit : is it smaller molecules than glycerine - or just a testing artifact
from the larger peak to the left, I know that can happen in other fields of analysis.
Letzin, not a lot of point in bashing people who are trying to find out,
I doubt if any of us has the cash for a GCMS instrument, or even for
a single contract-lab analysis.
(what warrior was that again Kate?)
But perhaps we should ask EcoPure to clarify this ? :
Edit : is it smaller molecules than glycerine - or just a testing artifact
from the larger peak to the left, I know that can happen in other fields of analysis.
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Letzin - I have stated that IMO vaping is hundreds of times safer than smoking. And I myself vape VG.
I have no agenda and not trying to prove anything. Long ago, I suggested testing only VG+water and only PG+water, particularly with regard to deposit formation and the 'bad smell', as the science suggested that VG decomposition could partly account these.
If you heat VG+distilled water, a deposit is formed. A chemistry book tells that VG starts to decompose at just below the boiling point. So acrolein is a likely intermediary in the formation of the deposit (there are other mechanisms but this is the most likely one).
PEG-400 looks promising so we might be able to use that instead of VG as the alternative to PG.
We can now focus on dry residues from flavorings and the nicotine preparation for hopefully eliminating deposits and bad tastes.
I have no agenda and not trying to prove anything. Long ago, I suggested testing only VG+water and only PG+water, particularly with regard to deposit formation and the 'bad smell', as the science suggested that VG decomposition could partly account these.
If you heat VG+distilled water, a deposit is formed. A chemistry book tells that VG starts to decompose at just below the boiling point. So acrolein is a likely intermediary in the formation of the deposit (there are other mechanisms but this is the most likely one).
PEG-400 looks promising so we might be able to use that instead of VG as the alternative to PG.
We can now focus on dry residues from flavorings and the nicotine preparation for hopefully eliminating deposits and bad tastes.
This may be a mixed forum with suppliers and consumers .....but it is worrying if any kind of negative discussion about the product is frowned upon.
Kate - I'm a happy bunny. I am convinced now that juices with no deposits can be made, which will greatly impact atomizer failure rate and bad tastes.
Dry deposits are an important thing to eliminate as burning organics on the heater coil is hardly a good thing, even if in the great scheme of things, the health implicatons are minimal.
Flavorings were designed really for food where dry deposits are not an issue. With this addressed and using heat-stable mediums, the future looks bright.
Dry deposits are an important thing to eliminate as burning organics on the heater coil is hardly a good thing, even if in the great scheme of things, the health implicatons are minimal.
Flavorings were designed really for food where dry deposits are not an issue. With this addressed and using heat-stable mediums, the future looks bright.
OK, it took me a while since I don't have any of the smaller tools that would have made this easier.
This is a 2.5 month old atomizer that has been hit daily with (usually pure VG/nic and flavor). I have hit it will all manners of flavors (the majority of them Lorann) and have used quite a few of the bad ones(thick and dark such as coffee, etc).
The mesh received 2 baths in 30% phosphoric acid during it's long illustrious life.
Sorry the pic isn't better, it was the best I could do with a web cam. Here are my observations:
The atomizer itself was very clean. The mesh looks almost new and I could not see any wear in the material.
The wire was clean without any noticeable buildup on the wire.
The core the wire wraps around had a thin hard black layer of what I assume is carbon buildup. I was actually surprised with that since it is very hard to get a good look when the unit is intact.
Pete, I have no idea how you do what you do to your atomizers
http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu270/nuckecf/?action=view¤t=Picture3.jpg
Edit: Strange..it wouldn't let me embed the image. Maybe it was too big.
This is a 2.5 month old atomizer that has been hit daily with (usually pure VG/nic and flavor). I have hit it will all manners of flavors (the majority of them Lorann) and have used quite a few of the bad ones(thick and dark such as coffee, etc).
The mesh received 2 baths in 30% phosphoric acid during it's long illustrious life.
Sorry the pic isn't better, it was the best I could do with a web cam. Here are my observations:
The atomizer itself was very clean. The mesh looks almost new and I could not see any wear in the material.
The wire was clean without any noticeable buildup on the wire.
The core the wire wraps around had a thin hard black layer of what I assume is carbon buildup. I was actually surprised with that since it is very hard to get a good look when the unit is intact.
Pete, I have no idea how you do what you do to your atomizers
http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu270/nuckecf/?action=view¤t=Picture3.jpg
Edit: Strange..it wouldn't let me embed the image. Maybe it was too big.
Well, as I've only lurked while Pete, Exo and Kin have been doing their research (I think I piped in only once or twice to thank them for what they have been doing), I want to again thank them. They are not suppliers, they are not being paid for the research they are doing on behalf of all of us.
Just want to thank you guys again and hope you continue to post your unbiased results. Cheers!
Just want to thank you guys again and hope you continue to post your unbiased results. Cheers!
Don't want to worry you Nuck but your picture doesn't show on my computer! And the phosphoric acid I have left atomizers soaking in for days ...didn't do a thing!!!
Thank for the comment Jack... kinba and Exo have all the brains and I just have lots of interest in their technical reports and findings .....lol.
Thanks jacksid, hopefully it doesn't appear as all arguments & politics here
nuck
what are the black 'tabs' on the ends of your bridge mesh ?
Also what model are you using ?
nuck
what are the black 'tabs' on the ends of your bridge mesh ?
Also what model are you using ?
*Waves at Pete x*
I'd also like to thank you guys for the effort you have put into analysing what's going on.
Here are some atomiser pictures that clearly show the gunk - especially the ones by Trog:
some atomizer pictures.. close up.. - ECigScrewdriver
Das Innenleben der Verdampfer
Black Stuff in Atomisers - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site* - Le site de la cigarette électronique
I'd also like to thank you guys for the effort you have put into analysing what's going on.
Here are some atomiser pictures that clearly show the gunk - especially the ones by Trog:
some atomizer pictures.. close up.. - ECigScrewdriver
Das Innenleben der Verdampfer
Black Stuff in Atomisers - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site* - Le site de la cigarette électronique
Thanks jacksid, hopefully it doesn't appear as all arguments & politics here
nuck
what are the black 'tabs' on the ends of your bridge mesh ?
Also what model are you using ?
The bridge tabs slot into the atomizer body. It's a 401 atomizer. The tabs themselves were silver. I have no idea why they look black in the photo. I'm going to go grab it out of the garbage and get another pic
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