Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionylm, Acetoin, OH MY!

[davidwi2]

I need some straight-forward answers if possible.

I've been reading several threads concerning diacetyl, acetyl propionylm and acetoin in certain flavors, mainly butter, vanilla, custard and flavors that may contain those flavors as part of its blend, i.e butter rum.

The concern is an inhalation hazard. The advice is to stay away from flavors that contain those ingredients.

The questions I have are as follows.

1. Are these ingredients used to mimic a flavor or do the ingredients naturally occur in some flavors?

2. If the flavor label doesn't specifically list these ingredients, is it safe to vape, provided the manufacturer would list the ingredients?

3. If a manufacturer uses only organic flavors, would these ingredients be found in some flavors regardless?

4. If these ingredients occur naturally, whether organic or not, what other flavors should I avoid besides butter, vanilla, custard and flavor-blends that use butter, vanilla or custard? What about malt?

Basically, I want to know if I use a source like Nature's Flavors that only uses organic flavors, should I stay away from butter, butter-blend, vanilla, vanilla-blend, custard, custard-blend flavors?

Ideally, specific answers to each question is preferred rather than general statements but I'll take it any way I can get it and be grateful.

 

[haiqu]

I need some straight-forward answers if possible.

I've been reading several threads concerning diacetyl, acetyl propionylm and acetoin in certain flavors, mainly butter, vanilla, custard and flavors that may contain those flavors as part of its blend, i.e butter rum.

The concern is an inhalation hazard. The advice is to stay away from flavors that contain those ingredients.

The questions I have are as follows.

1. Are these ingredients used to mimic a flavor or do the ingredients naturally occur in some flavors?

Diacetyl is a naturally occurring byproduct of fermentation. It is also used as an artificial method for making a buttery flavour, although this use is diminishing as the hazards have become known.

2. If the flavor label doesn't specifically list these ingredients, is it safe to vape, provided the manufacturer would list the ingredients?

Yes.

3. If a manufacturer uses only organic flavors, would these ingredients be found in some flavors regardless?

Possibly. A label claiming only organic ingredients is no guarantee against harmful ingredients.

4. If these ingredients occur naturally, whether organic or not, what other flavors should I avoid besides butter, vanilla, custard and flavor-blends that use butter, vanilla or custard? What about malt?

Mainly buttery flavours. I don't know of any issues with malt.

Basically, I want to know if I use a source like Nature's Flavors that only uses organic flavors, should I stay away from butter, butter-blend, vanilla, vanilla-blend, custard, custard-blend flavors?

Ideally, specific answers to each question is preferred rather than general statements but I'll take it any way I can get it and be grateful.

 

[Startle]

You should address your concerns and questions directly with the manufacturers that you are prospecting to buy from.

Communications are generally handled relatively quickly - if you don't get a satisfactory answer then move on.

Vape On!

 

[haiqu]

One of the problems here is that suppliers often don't list their ingredients on the website. You'll sometimes find a FAQ page that states they don't use diacetyl, I know this is the case with Dekang.

 

[davidwi2]

I have and they basically told me that since I was using their product for a purpose that it wasn't intended to be used for that they could not help me. Now, I could move on but I would guess that I will get the same response from all of them and I can understand why.

No one knows the long term effects of vaping. Why would a manufacturer tell you their product is safe for vaping?

This is something we need to figure out for ourselves with as much information we can find. I don't expect the manufacturers are going to provide much.

 

[Los Marauder]

Capella took all diacetyl out of their flavors just so vapers could use all the flavors they have. Thier vannila custard is a great example of a flavor that rocks but was unusable untill about a year ago. The flavor industry is awair of the $$$ from vapers and it is just going to get bigger with more vapers out there, and any taxes or restrictions that the gov. may impose on ready made nic juices. Flavor companies don't need lawsuites and do need our dollars. It will all get totaly cleaned up very soon.

 

[davidwi2]

Thanks haiqu. Is diacetyl naturally occurring in all flavors due to fermentation?

 

[rolygate]

It doesn't look as if naturally-occuring flavors are a problem, at this time. The problems are caused by synthetic flavors, which appear to be many times more powerful in all respects.

Although we know that diacetyl is problematic for inhalation, there is no solid evidence that similar synthetic flavors have the same issue, but common sense would indicate that some caution is sensible.

The only flavor manufacturer (or more correctly aggregator/vendor) who fully supports vaping is Flavour Art of Italy, who have international vendors of their products. You can certainly ask FA about these issues as they are pushing their vaping supply side very hard and will probably assist in any way they can.

The history of all flavor suppliers is not spotless, even FA. Early on they had many flavors with diacetyl, and even when they opened up a 'vaping specialty' section, some of the flavors still had a tiny amount of diacetyl. However they have cleaned up their act now and should not have any vaping flavors with risky ingredients.

In fact they support the vaping world better than most other vendors and put many far larger vaping businesses to shame, as they support clinical research to prove vaping's safety. As a result we should support FA more than other vendors when there is a chance to do so. At least they have stepped up to the plate when there are monster vaping businesses turning over tens of millions that have done absolutely nothing for the vaping world.

There are vendors like Flavour Art and Cignot who do what they can to help, putting back tens of thousands of dollars to support the community, even though they are minnows compared to some of the big vendors. Then there are the rest, who just take, take, and take.

Support FA.

In fact this has given me an idea for a Hall of Fame and Hall of Shame for good/bad vendors in this regard

 

[Shining Wit]

Thanks Roly, some interesting observations highlighting why I have confidence in FA and have done for the past
few years. The link below is to a search results page on the FA Italy website which lists the flavours containing
Diacetyl - each one has a warning that it should not be used for vaping. There is also a link to Massimiliano's
article on Diacetyl.
Just a week ago I had a vendor wishing to order a flavour that contained Diacetyl, he wasn't aware that it did
but was grateful for having it pointed out. FA Italy has grown dramatically in the last couple of years and produce
12,000 bottles per day on a fully-automated machine. A new machine is being installed to double that capacity
and should be running within the next week. That is in addition to the thousands of 1 litre bottles also being
manufactured. Max still believes in reinvestment into the safety aspects of vaping and will continue to do so.
How many manufacturers test the vapour of their flavoured liquids and issue MSDSs?

FlavourArt Diacetyl Search

Best wishes

John

 

[davidwi2]

Very interesting. I wasn't aware. While I prefer organic and vegetable glycerin only flavors, I would be willing to support a manufacturer that supports vaping over one that doesn't. Nature's Flavor doesn't seem to care to do that.

 

[rolygate]

To be clear, when I said they 'support vaping unlike others', what is meant is that:

- They have a specific range of flavors designed for vaping.

- They fund laboratory tests to determine the toxicity of their materials. These tests are designed and carried out according to accepted scientific protocols for clinical testing, are run by competent personnel, and the results are published.

- They fund clinical trials with e-cigarettes by academics such as Prof Polosa. These trials are properly run and the results are published in relevant journals.

As far as I am aware no other vendor (of any kind) does this, including vendors many times the size.