diacetyl-free?

[Fernand]

People involved with Dekang like Dekang. Others favor this or that source. But not even God Himself can beat a royal flush with a pair of sevens. Making a rich creamy vanillaey flavor without any diacetyl, acetylpropiony, acetoin, or other diketone type ingredient has (so far) been impossible. The intimate relationship between say diacetyl and acetoin, where one converts into the other over time, demonstrates another problem.

If you look at FlavourArt's site, you will see which flavors they have been unable to create without using such compounds, in spite of trying hard, and they are being marked "unsuitable for vaping". I've tried talking to some juice makers, to convince them to flag or exclude such flavors as FlavourArt clearly identifies as unsuitable, to "pass the token" to their users, in other words to at least give customers an informed choice. You'd think they'd at least consider the liability angle. Not much success so far.

People, please, stop thinking choosing your supplier will save you from using your head. Do you drive with your eyes closed because your car has a good safety rating? And Dekang can't beat a royal flush with a pair either. If it tastes rich and buttery, it IS rich and buttery.

And furthermore, nomatter what showpiece lab you are shown, anybody who's worked in industry knows that bulk chemicals in 50 gallon drums are not made and packaged in SciFi cleanrooms, and that high purity chemicals in the 5 nines range (99.999% pure) are reserved for special trace quantity/high cost situations, like laser manufacturing. The mom and pop vape-juice mixers don't present more exposure to unknowns than the average factory floor.

The key information we have now is that the diketone family is highly irritating to respiratory passages, and should not be inhaled. At what concentration? Clearly everybody has inhaled buttered toast (yum) without harm, that's diacetyl, and so it takes more than a trace amount.

In lab animals we see devastating/fatal effects within hours above 200 parts per million or so. Personally, I find a very strongly flavored vanillaey custardey caramelly vape that might push 40 ppm an unacceptable exposure. But a lightly flavored one at say 1 ppm of diketones doesn't worry me too much. That's just me. People have to make their own decisions, based on gradually examining the science, and not on which manufacturer's banner they are willing to march behind.

So, again, it's smart to avoid ANYBODY's flavors that seem rich and buttery, including as OSHA points out, some rich fruit flavors. If you make your own, it's smart to keep total flavoring below 5%. And it's practical to dilute commercial juice to reduce the flavoring amount. If you buy 36-48mg/ml juice, you can stretch it 4:1 with glycerin (and/or PG) and still get 9-12 mg/ml nicotine, and often plenty enough flavor. Save a little cash, too.

 

[washvap]

so is it just safer to stay away from vanilla in general? or just that vanilla custard? cause i have some plain vanilla and as a newbie am obviously curious lol

Not in general, from what I've read it will only be the vanilla custard flavor that will contain Diacetyl. If you have plain vanilla then your good. Nothing to worry about there.

 

[washvap]

People involved with Dekang like Dekang. Others favor this or that source. But not even God Himself can beat a royal flush with a pair of sevens. Making a rich creamy vanillaey flavor without any diacetyl, acetylpropiony, acetoin, or other diketone type ingredient has (so far) been impossible. The intimate relationship between say diacetyl and acetoin, where one converts into the other over time, demonstrates another problem.

If you look at FlavourArt's site, you will see which flavors they have been unable to create without using such compounds, in spite of trying hard, and they are being marked "unsuitable for vaping". I've tried talking to some juice makers, to convince them to flag or exclude such flavors as FlavourArt clearly identifies as unsuitable, to "pass the token" to their users, in other words to at least give customers an informed choice. You'd think they'd at least consider the liability angle. Not much success so far.

People, please, stop thinking choosing your supplier will save you from using your head. Do you drive with your eyes closed because your car has a good safety rating? And Dekang can't beat a royal flush with a pair either. If it tastes rich and buttery, it IS rich and buttery.

And furthermore, nomatter what showpiece lab you are shown, anybody who's worked in industry knows that bulk chemicals in 50 gallon drums are not made and packaged in SciFi cleanrooms, and that high purity chemicals in the 5 nines range (99.999% pure) are reserved for special trace quantity/high cost situations, like laser manufacturing. The mom and pop vape-juice mixers don't present more exposure to unknowns than the average factory floor.

The key information we have now is that the diketone family is highly irritating to respiratory passages, and should not be inhaled. At what concentration? Clearly everybody has inhaled buttered toast (yum) without harm, that's diacetyl, and so it takes more than a trace amount.

In lab animals we see devastating/fatal effects within hours above 200 parts per million or so. Personally, I find a very strongly flavored vanillaey custardey caramelly vape that might push 40 ppm an unacceptable exposure. But a lightly flavored one at say 1 ppm of diketones doesn't worry me too much. That's just me. People have to make their own decisions, based on gradually examining the science, and not on which manufacturer's banner they are willing to march behind.

So, again, it's smart to avoid ANYBODY's flavors that seem rich and buttery, including as OSHA points out, some rich fruit flavors. If you make your own, it's smart to keep total flavoring below 5%. And it's practical to dilute commercial juice to reduce the flavoring amount. If you buy 36-48mg/ml juice, you can stretch it 4:1 with glycerin (and/or PG) and still get 9-12 mg/ml nicotine, and often plenty enough flavor. Save a little cash, too.

Well said. The only thing that concerns me if I do choose to use some juices that contain Diacetyl is the long term effects eve n in trace amounts. I'm going to make sure to avoid anything rich from now on and plus, have some bottles of REAL Dekang on the way and want to see if I notice any differences.

Thanks a lot for your contribution to this thread. You put out a lot of good points that are worth considering.

 

[Iffy]

If you make your own, it's smart to keep total flavoring below 5%. And it's practical to dilute commercial juice to reduce the flavoring amount. If you buy 36-48mg/ml juice, you can stretch it 4:1 with glycerin (and/or PG) and still get 9-12 mg/ml nicotine, and often plenty enough flavor. Save a little cash, too.

Normally, 5% is not near enough flavoring for the average vaper, except for the most 'powerful' flavors. My experiences show that reducing premixes to half the nic/flavor reduces the flavor to near none.

 

[SpecialJ]

Not in general, from what I've read it will only be the vanilla custard flavor that will contain Diacetyl. If you have plain vanilla then your good. Nothing to worry about there.

thanks! i appreciate the feedback cause i started to get worried that i just wasted money on something that i shouldn't use! i have been trying to find info on the stuff i have but haven't been able to find anything!

 

[washvap]

No problem, glad I could help. I've found some threads when I just made this one that had plenty of info on this topic:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-please-keep-just-listing-supplier-names.html

Although, I have gained a lot of knowledge from all the posters on this thread that were able to give their advice. There's a list somewhere on the link that has pretty much all the flavors to look out for. Which is a lot. Just look through every page and I'm sure you'll get the answer that you want.

 

[SpecialJ]

cignot can be added to the list... i emailed vicki and she replied that she does not carry liquids with diacetyl....

 

[ClutchMan]

Backwoods Brew is diacetyl free as well according to the website.

 

[Fernand]

I don't think it's crazy of me to say this.

If the flavor-mixers aren't sure what is in their bulk flavors, because their suppliers aren't positive either, then HOW on earth are some juice-makers able to be 100% sure there is neither diacetyl, nor acetoin, nor acetylpropionyl, nor any of the related compounds in what they flavor their juice with? The only reliable way to be sure is to run a GC/MS analysis, checking for all the diketone family.

So, nobody should list a juice, or a juice vendor as "diacetyl-free", unless you submit analytical evidence. We've been there before. You do everyone a disfavor by either pointing accusing fingers or accepting shallow claims, without some credible evidence. Not because everyone lies, but because the lower levels of the flavoring industry buy bulk flavoring from sources much higher up the food chain, and don't know. Now that Diacetyl is a poo-poo word, the whole industry is scrambling to use substitutes. The middle-tier suppliers want to be able to say they "don't add diacetyl". Are you happier with acetylpropionyl? The lab animals were not.

To analyze batches of juice from different vendors is not impossible. But someone would have to pay for it. And then pay for testing subsequent batches.

People, please. If you think avoiding rich flavors and using lightly flavored vape is too much sacrifice, OK, it's a personal decision. But to lead people to think that they can safely vape juice from vendor X with 20% rich caramelly buttery custardy flavoring, just because the vendor says "we don't add diacetyl", is irresponsible.

And when I said that I don't worry too much about a trace amount of diacetyl-type compounds, and I did mean trace, it's my calculated risk, and nobody should accept any such idea for themselves unless they really dig into the research. I shouldn't even have said that, I apologize, because there are cases of lung damage to workers where the average exposure to diacetyl was well under 1 ppm, and we don't yet fully understand why.

In the Surgeon General's report in January, two very new things came to light. One was that reducing the number of cigarettes smoked daily did not lower the cancer risk nor the effects on circulation. But the other was that people who switched to pure nicotine, e.g. in patches or gum, had the same health benefits as those who quit completely. I assume vaping is like that. It would be a shame to be given a second chance with vaping, and mess it up because we just HAD to specifically vape intense buttery flavors.

 

[Iffy]

In the Surgeon General's report in January...

Link, please.

 

[Fernand]

Yes, sorry, here's the whole enchilada:

A Report of the Surgeon General: How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease

The (startling) findings on nicotine replacement therapy not being associated with the problems caused by smoking are a bit scattered, but page 399 is a good start. They say outright that the devastating cardiovascular effects of smoking appear to be due to compounds OTHER than nicotine. The overall impression I had when I studied the report was that we are coming to realize 1) Tobacco smoke is even more dangerous than we thought, rapidly damaging genetic material in cells, and 2) nicotine in itself is not the culprit, it's probably no more toxic than caffeine.

 

[washvap]

I don't think it's crazy of me to say this.

If the flavor-mixers aren't sure what is in their bulk flavors, because their suppliers aren't positive either, then HOW on earth are some juice-makers able to be 100% sure there is neither diacetyl, nor acetoin, nor acetylpropionyl, nor any of the related compounds in what they flavor their juice with? The only reliable way to be sure is to run a GC/MS analysis, checking for all the diketone family.

So, nobody should list a juice, or a juice vendor as "diacetyl-free", unless you submit analytical evidence. We've been there before. You do everyone a disfavor by either pointing accusing fingers or accepting shallow claims, without some credible evidence. Not because everyone lies, but because the lower levels of the flavoring industry buy bulk flavoring from sources much higher up the food chain, and don't know. Now that Diacetyl is a poo-poo word, the whole industry is scrambling to use substitutes. The middle-tier suppliers want to be able to say they "don't add diacetyl". Are you happier with acetylpropionyl? The lab animals were not.

To analyze batches of juice from different vendors is not impossible. But someone would have to pay for it. And then pay for testing subsequent batches.

People, please. If you think avoiding rich flavors and using lightly flavored vape is too much sacrifice, OK, it's a personal decision. But to lead people to think that they can safely vape juice from vendor X with 20% rich caramelly buttery custardy flavoring, just because the vendor says "we don't add diacetyl", is irresponsible.

And when I said that I don't worry too much about a trace amount of diacetyl-type compounds, and I did mean trace, it's my calculated risk, and nobody should accept any such idea for themselves unless they really dig into the research. I shouldn't even have said that, I apologize, because there are cases of lung damage to workers where the average exposure to diacetyl was well under 1 ppm, and we don't yet fully understand why.

In the Surgeon General's report in January, two very new things came to light. One was that reducing the number of cigarettes smoked daily did not lower the cancer risk nor the effects on circulation. But the other was that people who switched to pure nicotine, e.g. in patches or gum, had the same health benefits as those who quit completely. I assume vaping is like that. It would be a shame to be given a second chance with vaping, and mess it up because we just HAD to specifically vape intense buttery flavors.

That's true. Still haven't seen anyone that has done any tests on juices yet. And as you say, no one is willing to pay for it. When I think about it over and over again. I have not clue whether this juice is safer than the next regardless of how it's manufactured or anything.

Trusting someone's word in business is something that's hard to do sometimes. Especially when money's involved and makes total sense. Diacetyl free does seem to be a sales strategy at this point from what I've noticed.

The thing is that I quit cigarettes so I can live a healthier life and it concerns me that I might be stepping into another situation where I risk my life due to my addiction to nicotine. Is it better than cigs? of course but, I wonder how much safer at this point. Bronchitis is still a possibility due to diacetyl and other aforementioned chemicals that pose serious health problems. Even flavors like cinnamon has lead to people going to the ER from what I've read on other threads.

Funny thing is that I'm also not willing to go cold turkey since I'll probably be back to smoking cigs before I know it. So, I'm stuck at this point pondering about what if's.....

 

[Iffy]

A Report of the Surgeon General: How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease

Thanx! Now I want to find how 'they' came to the conclusion that reducing the number of cigarettes smoked daily did not lower the cancer risk nor the effects on circulation. Might take a while...

 

[Fernand]

With cancer it seems the observation is that the DNA-ripping is so rapid, and takes so little smoke. Of course that's not to say if you do twice as many your chances of ripping that DNA into a nasty mutation isn't linearly greater. But what they're saying is "we didn't know how FAST the damage occurs". It's not like some backroom marinade.

With the NRT they have some plausible data, like studying people who've had a bypass, then looking at the follow-up. The people on Nicotine Replacement "Therapy" fared as well as the ones who quit. Not so good even for the "I only have one now and then" crowd, apparently.

 

[Fernand]

Washvap, hang in there. Try a few things. Don't give up. I found pure VG with nicotine tasted OK. Surprise. Adding 5% of the FlavourArt drops, like their DesertShip or Virginia or whatever you like, was way way enough flavor, overkill even. They have a nice collection of "tobacco-like" flavors. They also have many others, and they flag ones that are unsuitable for vaping. They happen to be one of the few that mix flavors from scratch. There are retailers that sell their flavoring, there's one I know of in WA. If you find that VG works for you (and why not), all you need is some VG+Nicotine, VG and a few flavors to start. Dust off your artithmetic, and mix yer own. After a while I realized I had enough 100 mg/ml Nicotine in VG to last me a decade, because I was cutting down on Nic. I'm vaping one of my older 10mg/ml Perique juices as I type, and it's making me a bit sea-sick, 'cause after about a year, I'm down from 48mg/ml to 5. There's hope fer shure. I wouldn't dream of lighting up a cig - vaping is BETTER.

 

[washvap]

Thanks for the support Fernand. Honestly was starting to think that I might have to quite vaping altogether but at the same time. I've spent so much on it lately that I'm kind of committed at this point LOL Also, that's a big drop in the nic level. I'm still at 24mg for 4 mnths now.

I've been really thinking about DIY juice making lately and probably going to make that leap soon (will still order sometimes since I do have a few choice vendors that I can't get enough of). Although, my math skills do suck but I'm willing to take that chance LOL. Also, might wait until I finish at least half of the 900+ ml of juice before I move forward. Good thing is that I don't own any juices that have vanilla custard, butter, and cinnamon. But, I do have a few that is pretty rich in flavor.

Anyways, I've heard good things about FlavourArt flavorings and interested in getting some stuff from Perfumers Apprentice as well. Out of curiosity, which company is the one you spoke about that is located in WA? Where do you get your VG from? Also, is PG ok to get or is there any problems associated with it's use?

My reason for asking is that I do like a good, solid TH when I vape and all VG juices gives me a scratchy throat if I vape it all the time. I know this is probably better suited for the DIY section of the forum but it's nice to gain a little more knowledge about vaping whenever I get the chance.

 

[Fernand]

The company in WA is ecigexpress.com. Good experience with them, and they carry what you need. Including 60 mg/ml nicotine in VG.

Smoking is worse than I thought as far as immediate damage to genetic material is concerned. Too many people are dying of cancer all around me. It's no longer even the most remote option.

Vaping offers a lot of choices. I'm no longer at the "MUST have it this way" stage. I like heavy flavoring but I consider all flavoring suspect, so easy does it. I sure don't see the need for stuff that turned out to have a severe toxicity, like buttery-flavorings.

I don't find PG worth the dry throat/upset stomach/leg cramps/sleepiness. These are not very serious side effects, but I find I don't have such reactions to VG.

I bought some nicotine in PG, and fortunately only one bottle. You're not likely to need adding PG to a blend, so I would suggest getting your Nic in 100% VG, a get a small bottle of PG and a big bottle of VG. There are cheap places to get VG and PG, like Lotioncrafters, but maybe it's easier to get everything in one place. Flavors in small bottles until you find stuff you are SURE to continue loving. I like the little bottles of FA flavoring ecigexpress sells. Check the FA web site and don't get any of the "unsuitable for vaping" ones. You can mix your own, AND you can use use some of your premixes in your blends. I've never tried it, but they say a bit of alcohol in the mix gives an added throat hit. It's all highly entertaining.

 

[washvap]

Just bookmarked them, thanks. I've seen a lot of people on this forum that has had bad reactions to PG. I guess I'm one of the rare people who don't and actually like having a bit of PG in my juices. I'll definitely check out Lotioncrafters when the time comes for me to order. Going to order sample bottles of flavors as well since I've mostly been ordering big bottles for most of the juices that I've got now. Even though it wasn't all that expensive since most of them were on sale. It WILL take a while to go through.

I'll be honest and say that I'm pretty much a certified juice junkie LOL. Ordered from a LOT of vendors in the short amount of time that I've been vaping. I have started to practice with basic juice making with mixing some of the ok juices together to see what I can come up with. I've had moderate success with that and hopefully will get better with time.

Anyways, I'm thankful for all the advice that you have given me about DIY juice making and eager to try out all the suggestions that you have given me. Probably going to be making my DIY orders in the next 4 mnths I believe. Since I HATE to waste the money that I've already spent on all the juices I've bought. Still haven't tried out a majority of them neither.

 

[Fernand]

FlavourArt has been gradually reformulating their flavors to eliminate diacetyl AND related compounds. Where this has proved impractical, they have marked the flavors as "Contains diacetyl and/or related diketones. Unsuitable for vaping." These are still fine for food use. Or, if you think it's all needless frettin', vape 'em. E-CigExpress has followed their lead and marked the affected FA flavors they sell the same way. Now we're getting somewhere.

Remains for all the juice makers to follow suit. One juice-blender company I approached on the issue of at least flagging the juices that use the "unsuitable" flavors gave some vague excuses, and then stopped responding. Alright, but they are likely in violation of the new OSHA bulletins that require hazard labeling.

Since many (if not most) juice vendors use FA flavors, it's only logical for customers to ask if any of the juices they are thinking of ordering contain flavors that FA has labeled as "unsuitable for vaping". Go forth and query, my brothers and sisters!

 

[Pheisty]

Backwoods Brew is diacetyl free as well according to the website.

Hi Clutch. Where are you seeing this on the BWB website? I can't find it.

Thanks!