diacetyl

[PowerofParanoia]

thanks redgirl. i would never have known.

PowerofParanoia: so are you saying that the safe side has cookies? i thought it was the dark side that had cookies.

Dark side has sugar cookies.
Safe side has chocolate chip.
Common misconception.

 

[Gunjji]

well damn... never heard of diacetyl til now... Thanks redgirl for the heads up!

 

[cdecee]

Thanks, Redgirl. I read the information. Since I am currently helping a relative place her first order for juice, this information is relavent. She has been told by a pulmonary specialist that she HAS to quit smoking. Last thing I want to do is recommend a product that may have any potential (no matter how small) to further deteriorate the condition of her lungs. I honestly don't understand the need to scoff at those that would prefer to avoid diacetyl in their juice. I don't eat organic produce, but I don't belittle the choice of those that choose to go that route.

 

[r3dgh0s7]

Thanks, Redgirl. I read the information. Since I am currently helping a relative place her first order for juice, this information is relavent. She has been told by a pulmonary specialist that she HAS to quit smoking. Last thing I want to do is recommend a product that may have any potential (no matter how small) to further deteriorate the condition of her lungs. I honestly don't understand the need to scoff at those that would prefer to avoid diacetyl in their juice. I don't eat organic produce, but I don't belittle the choice of those that choose to go that route.

Well put! Its a little disheartening to see the "know it alls" jump down OPs throat

 

[the_larch]

Well put! Its a little disheartening to see the "know it alls" jump down OPs throat

The same can be said of the people who support the OPs stance. There was a lot of harshness on both sides.......

 

[PowerofParanoia]

The same can be said of the people who support the OPs stance. There was a lot of harshness on both sides.......

Here, I have something that will lighten the mood!

 

[the_larch]

Posting my opinion so that I can be done with this topic:

DISCLAIMER!: I don't like nasty chemicals that could potentially wreak havoc on my young(ish) lungs. I do like Hopscotch. I can't decide which takes priority...

So do your homework and order from the supplier of your choosing. This seems pretty simple. Don't like that your vendor of choice doesn't post a disclaimer? Don't buy from them. Unsure whether or not your vendor of choice has a product containing something which may or may not be harmful? Don't buy from them. Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy ANYTHING from ANYBODY.

I'm not downplaying the fact that some liquids contain things which could be fatal.

I'm not downplaying that every individual has the right to know what they are consuming.

Instead I put the responsibility on the consumer to determine whether or not they choose to do business based on whatever they decide warrants a business relationship!

This really isn't that hard... In my opinion (which nobody ever asks for but which I give freely and with the anticipation that it might not be to everyone's liking) this thread could have easily been closed with the original post. It is useful to know that e-liquids might contain harmful chemicals that the average user might not be aware of but really that's where this argument ends.

 

[texastumbleweed]

amen amen!

Thanks, Redgirl. I read the information. Since I am currently helping a relative place her first order for juice, this information is relavent. She has been told by a pulmonary specialist that she HAS to quit smoking. Last thing I want to do is recommend a product that may have any potential (no matter how small) to further deteriorate the condition of her lungs. I honestly don't understand the need to scoff at those that would prefer to avoid diacetyl in their juice. I don't eat organic produce, but I don't belittle the choice of those that choose to go that route.

 

[Satharra]

To be completely fair, there are a ton of food flavorings that have never been tested for inhalation. Want proof? Take a look here: NIOSH - Preventing Lung Disease in Workers Who Use or Make Flavorings - Publication No. 2004 - 110

Diacytel has gotten a lot of press lately because there were so many incidents. But, I can guarantee you that other food flavorings could have the same results. Plus, I find it odd that we've been using diacetyl for years in margarine and the first instances were only first found in the past decade.

Now I don't want to downplay the effects of diacetyl either. I understand that it is a very large concern. I also understand that we're inhaling flavorings intended for food. When it boils down to it, I would appreciate if vendors disclosed who their suppliers were so folks could figure out if those suppliers manufacture products with diacetyl in them. What I find objectionable in that thread is that FSUSA (one of the very few vendors who actually discloses their flavor supplier) got raked over the coals. Seriously, why would anyone else disclose that information now?

 

[redgirl]

Thanks for lightening it up, PoP and thanks everyone. I definitely don't like drama of any sort and I knew that by posting this I was kinda asking for it, but I know a lot of you guys only hang out in PIF and I kind of felt obligated to post it here since I had read the whole dang thread. People on both sides have good points and my motivation is not to spread panic or alert the antis. We have a right to discuss any issues affecting the vaping community.

K, my PSA is done. This message has been brought to you by:

 

[PowerofParanoia]

K, my PSA is done. This message has been brought to you by:

Rofl!
That reminds me of Bill Nye the Science guy from elementary school.
Is that where that's from?

 

[Eekaa Chu]

I don't mind.
I have some cookies we can share while we hide.

Awesome! You've got the chocolate chip, I'll bring the snickerdoodles. We'll be set for days. lol!

 

[redgirl]

YouTube - Fighting "The More You Know" Conan O'Brien

 

[Bahnzo]

After reading all 46 pages in the referred to thread I'd like to chime in...

Someone owes me about an hour of my life back!

The witchhunt/supplier slamming/misinformation being passed off as fact/holier than thou attitudes that I read through were ridiculous!

Agreed. And I didn't make it past page 4 (I skipped to the end and read the last page because I needed to confirm what I knew was coming).

This thread is an example of why I don't bother reading most of the other forums on this website. Lots of drivel with no facts to back anything up and people making wild accusations with the same 4-5 people posting it over and over and over. I know there are mods here, but it's examples like this that make me wonder why bother with them? I'm all for open discussion, but threads like that serve no purpose. They get out of control and 40+ pages long and any useful information is obscured by the same people posting crap they know nothing about. It's like the thread about the new E2 cartos. Same 5 people posting over and over in a 50 page thread leaving it useless to glean any real knowledge about the issue.

I'm all for disclosing the potential that diacetyl may be used in some liquids. But the witch hunt it turned into does nobody any good and serves no purpose. I'm personally waiting until I see some real proof either way, which to my knowledge noone has posted. I DIY all my juice anyways, so I'm not too worried at this point anyhow.

 

[Fopa]

witch hunt – noun
an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence

 

[Enid]

I read the whole thing and I agree that posters on both sides were angry but I did learn a few things. I also spent some time outside of ECF looking up information.

What I did find ever so informative is the varying degrees of helpfulness and obstruction of the suppliers/vendors. Some vendors went out of their way to find more info, speculate on additional studies, crunch numbers and immediately listed products in their store as having diacetyl. Another supplier lied, with ease, I might add. Then, when facts, a flavor manufacturer's website listed supplier's products as having diacetyl, the supplier immediately went into the "everything's gonna kill ya camp".

I have always said that I can find equally qualified experts to promote or refute any position. It's my decision who I put my faith in. I put my faith in the people trying to bring light on a situation, people willing to discuss things, people who aren't so quick to judgement.

The 45 page post showed me who I want to support with my business and that was worth my time.

 

[skydragon]

Thanks for lightening it up, PoP and thanks everyone. I definitely don't like drama of any sort and I knew that by posting this I was kinda asking for it, but I know a lot of you guys only hang out in PIF and I kind of felt obligated to post it here since I had read the whole dang thread. People on both sides have good points and my motivation is not to spread panic or alert the antis. We have a right to discuss any issues affecting the vaping community.



K, my PSA is done. This message has been brought to you by:

I don't think you started any drama redgirl. As stated, you only wanted to pass the information. That is not drama people! Thank you for putting it up.

 

[Neo]

What I did find ever so informative is the varying degrees of helpfulness and obstruction of the suppliers/vendors. Some vendors went out of their way to find more info, speculate on additional studies, crunch numbers and immediately listed products in their store as having diacetyl. Another supplier lied, with ease, I might add. Then, when facts, a flavor manufacturer's website listed supplier's products as having diacetyl, the supplier immediately went into the "everything's gonna kill ya camp".

Which is why, with good reason IMHO, said supplier got "raked over the coals".

 

[Satharra]

I read the whole thing and I agree that posters on both sides were angry but I did learn a few things. I also spent some time outside of ECF looking up information.

What I did find ever so informative is the varying degrees of helpfulness and obstruction of the suppliers/vendors. Some vendors went out of their way to find more info, speculate on additional studies, crunch numbers and immediately listed products in their store as having diacetyl. Another supplier lied, with ease, I might add. Then, when facts, a flavor manufacturer's website listed supplier's products as having diacetyl, the supplier immediately went into the "everything's gonna kill ya camp".

I have always said that I can find equally qualified experts to promote or refute any position. It's my decision who I put my faith in. I put my faith in the people trying to bring light on a situation, people willing to discuss things, people who aren't so quick to judgement.

The 45 page post showed me who I want to support with my business and that was worth my time.

Well, I don't agree that he lied. I just don't think he knew that the FA flavors had diacetyl in them. More than likely he assumed they didn't. When presented with information to the contrary, I think he did blow it off as being in very trace amounts and that other chemicals are just as likely to kill you. In many regards he's correct since most of these food flavorings have never been studies for inhalation. Diacetyl has been in use since margarine was first marketed but we've only recently discovered the issues with inhalation. Inevitably, there will be others that have similar properties.

I will agree that it was poorly handled on his part. He had a mob that wanted blood and, in my opinion, he would've been FAR better off not responding than saying what he did. As for the other vendors claiming that they don't have it, I know of at least 2 on the list that use FA flavorings and would be very surprised if they haven't been using some of the diacetyl flavors up until now since most of their flavors have very similar taste to other known-FA flavors.

To be completely fair, unless you know precisely which flavors are being used in which juices, no one can say with any certainty that any vendor isn't using a diacetyl flavor. Since there are very few vendors who disclose their flavor source(s), that list that's been started in a separate thread is at best speculation and, at worst, hearsay.

 

[Neo]

^

Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. I can only say that I knew...FA's site has had that information posted clearly for many moons.