Doesn't what you Recommend kinda get back to that 2nd Question I asked?
Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors
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Doesn't what you Recommend kinda get back to that 2nd Question I asked?
Heh... I sometimes ask if certain foods have or are prepared with sulfites... all I get are blank stares, or across-the-board denials. As I sit there at Red Lobster having an asthma attack. Since then I've learned that yes, Rob Lobster probably didn't put them in there -- they received them that way, frozen -- because sulfites keep those frozen raw shrimp nice and white!
But it sure would be nice if they simply acknowledged the fact of their presence, for the benefit of asthmatics -- 25% of the population!Andria
Yes, and it was asked and answered, if they are asked and they say NO, it had better not be present. If they are asked and they don't know, they need to say that.
Heh... I sometimes ask if certain foods have or are prepared with sulfites... all I get are blank stares, or across-the-board denials. As I sit there at Red Lobster having an asthma attack. Since then I've learned that yes, Rob Lobster probably didn't put them in there -- they received them that way, frozen -- because sulfites keep those frozen raw shrimp nice and white!
Andria
I do feel for you Andria, but whose responsibility is it? Is it the RL that has to know every constituent of every processed item they receive? It might be, but food is a giant mess too.
I'm not new to vaping..I even tried DIY eliquids,..( I happen to really blow at that though). I'm basically just fed the hell up of hearing about this unsafe mod,..that unsafe battery..This is in my eliquid,..should it be?!?why must we always assume the negative. whats meant by its far to easy to deceive?
whom prey tell is deceiving us and why? it doesn't make sense. do you think there
is actually any one out there whipping together any old combination of chemicals
they found at a recycling center and selling it as e-juice? even if there was one
would not they be just a common criminal committing larceny,reckless endangerment,
and any other law concerning putting your fellow citizen in harms way?
take a little time and study how our craft works. learn about the basic
ingredients in the juice and why they are used. learn the manufacturing
process of how to make e-juice. its so incredibly easy and safe it would make
your head spin. 4 or 5 ingredients measured to a correct portion. put them
all into a container and stir.that's it. the only critical element is using
a little caution getting the nic strength right. other than that the worst
that can possibly happen is to get a bad tasting batch of juice.that's a
real killer.roll out the sterile computer operated labs.
ask any one who was a heavy smoker for 30 years or more if their
health has improved. i am willing to bet 99 out of 100 will answer
yes. the 1 is probably a crotchety old curmudgeon like me.
yet here we are ignoring the good and nit picking every little
possible and statistically meaningless problem that in all likelihood
will never occur.
when you look at the total picture it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
the wicks. the metal in the coils. the flavorings in the juice.
the nicotine in the juice. all tempests in a teapot.
all in a base namely PG that has been known to be safe to inhale since
the 50's.VG has been the second choice in medicines for the tiny fraction
of persons allergic to PG and is thought to be just as safe.
from the gear to the juice its all pretty good.
unsafe use is unsafe use. that can't be regulated nor do
i believe it should be. if a company is using GRAS ingredients
and there is no reason they shouldn't be,there is no reason
for any regulations at all.
its all about the money. not the money Big Government,BT
and BP are losing now. its the money to be made by taking
over the industry and the profits it will generate and to have
control over that money. with hardware so simplistic and
juice so cheap to make there will be plenty of it to go
around. it just wont be the people that built this industry
that are going to get it.
regards
mike
Those that do not hit the forums are so uneducated about the whole game that you could sell them a $10 Chinese mod,..a couple of $3 batteries,..and eliquid that say's,.. " Contains PG/VG and 50% diketones " and it would blow right by them.
I cannot understand the paranoia and denial that some vapers are presenting now that some testing has been done within the vaping community. We vapers are regularly challenging studies done by those outside the community sponsored by organizations that are hell bent on showing vaping is dangerous. We repeatedly demand that accurate, unbiased results be used in looking at the ecig market. When testing is done by some of "our own" for potentially damaging ingredients, I expect most of us would want to know those results and make our choices accordingly.
Arguing against considering this useful information shows that some in our community want to know nothing, and think the rest of us should put our heads in the sand as well. Seems foolish if not self destructive to me.
Waiting for years to see if the cumulative effects of potentially damaging ingredients can be absolutely proven? Not me. It seems like common sense.
Arguing against considering this useful information shows that some in our community want to know nothing, and think the rest of us should put our heads in the sand as well. Seems foolish if not self destructive to me.
Waiting for years to see if the cumulative effects of potentially damaging ingredients can be absolutely proven? Not me. It seems like common sense.
I know... so I just don't go there anymore, nor order shrimp in a restaurant unless I'm in a coastal city where it was fresh caught -- that doesn't happen too often!
Now I buy it at Walmart, the kind sold for shrimp cocktail -- it's pre-cooked, so no sulfites are needed. In recipes, it just needs a quick stir-fry and it's done.To me, this is something that the FDA actually needs to address -- this stuff is legal that could actually be lethal to a quarter of the population -- that simply shouldn't be. But it's "all about the money" naturally; sulfites are cheaper than sulfur dioxide which would serve the same purpose. Big Ag is just as big a villain as BP.
Andria
i have absolutely no problem with those who chose to vape
the way they want to vape and use the juice they choose
to use.
my concern is when some try to use the fears of potential
risks on every one with not even rudimentary evidence
showing that risk has any potential of harm in the form
of vaping.
OSHA considers popcorn lung a industrial disease. less than
about 100 people have been diagnosed with it. OSHA has
stated they are not even sure diacetly and acetyl are the
cause.OSHA also states they do not no why only certain
work situations,namely manufacturing microwave popcorn,
a handful of workers that make flavors and,recently 2
workers in a coffee roasting plant. OSHA has also said
it could very well be other work place processes and or,
a combination of processes could be responsible for
popcorn lung.no where have i found any official or
knowledgeable source stating categorically diacetyl and
acetyl cause popcorn lung. just because a court said
so does not make it true.
if you think its a problem that's fine. do what you have to do.
in the meantime stop using the term popcorn lung thinking
its a winning argument. if diacetyl and acetyl are such a problem
the FDA would have already jumped all over it and there would be
no such thing as aroma therapy.
regards
mike
For me, part of this issue is what the data points to. Namely OSHA in this case with popcorn lung. Perhaps there are other studies elsewhere that are noting popcorn lung, but OSHA to me is at least worthy of being skeptical about, even if Dr. F. is citing them in his own studies. To me, it would be akin to citing CDC in a vaping study as a legitimate resource for objective data.
I want to see independent scientific group (which seems like tall order right there) provide information all on their own regarding popcorn lung and only how it relates to vaping. Not how it could relate to vaping compared to similar compounds being found in industrial environments. And none of this "has potential to lead to" such and such. Either the connection is observed via scientific method, or the inference is a) not actual science and b) closer to fear mongering. Until this is done / established as baseline, the current need for lab testing across the industry is in reality a shake down. To appease some customers concerns. I think those concerns are legitimate, but I think the proposed solution (manufacturers do testing) is not an actual solution. Would seem very many would be okay just having likes of Dr. F. saying, "I've tested this juice and I approve it." I would argue the overwhelming majority who say they are truly concerned would allow that to suffice for them going forward. Thus no real guarantee nor understanding of what's been approved (really) but just the idea that Dr. F. or similar pro says it no longer has cooties and you can trust them that its okay.
People routinely say BT lied. I challenge this meme often cause a) if you study that history with a fine toothed comb, then arguably every business ever is lying and b) this type of issue sets up a whole lot of scapegoating down the road. Mainly cause of what I conveyed in previous paragraph. If you truly were concerned, you'd do your own testing. If not, you'll rely on faith/trust. That's not a bad thing, and IMO is by far the norm. But it is also the type of thing where you will still not be in position to make the determination you think, or are arguing for, needs to be made. 50 years from now, (maybe even 10), I can see people then looking at likes of Dr. F. the same way people today look at likes of BT scientists from the 1960's. IOW, as paid shills that were lying to protect the industry. But even that is mostly a propaganda take on what actually occurred, as it was really scientific agenda of the other side that set that up both at the time and for sure on hindsight to tell the narrative that is still being told today, and is the greater deception at work.
I'm certainly not saying you're wrong about OSHA in this context; I don't trust any portion of the gov't. However OSHA is the repository of data pertaining to workman's compensation -- so even if they are not directly involved in the research, some of the data for that research may not be available from any other source.
Andria
I couldn't agree more. I like to know how fast I can safely drive on my tires. What do you know? There's a code molded into them that tells me - if I take the trouble to look it up. What I don't have to do is take them to the track and test them to destruction.
I routinely wonder about this as well in this discussion. From the other side of this debate, it is plausible to think that vaping is more harmful than smoking. I think those on the other side would come back and say they don't think it is, but taking to task what their arguments are suggesting, could rather easily lead anyone to believe that "even vapers know that what they are doing is dangerous."
If you smoked diketones for 40 years and every smoker you know has not developed popcorn lung, but suddenly vapers might exhibit this condition, then it would be deception to say 99% safer. How'd you make it to age 45+ smoking a PAD for umpteen decades, and are now in position to brag about how healthy you are if smoking is 100 times more dangerous than vaping diketones? That doesn't compute.
And as I've said elsewhere, whatever the alternatives are to not vaping diketones isn't inherently less harm. It could be argued as such, but I'd be willing to put "not vaping at all" on the table, and then observe all the potential harmful behaviors that individual is up to daily. If scrutinized the way smoking is routinely scrutinized, it would lead any reasonable person to note that it is a) not 100% harmless and b) is arguably more harmful than vaping, as vaping does carry with it some benefits, i.e. many vapers report not having a cold for the time they are vaping. Most vapers who are ex-smokers report having great reduction for cravings for a smoke, whereas even cold turkey people can't necessarily boast this position as well as some vapers. Thus, there are benefits. The benefits to not smoking and not vaping sound great in sound bite form, but let's do our diligence and observe these people for 3 months, scrutinize their behaviors at level that smoking/smokers get scrutinized at and see how well they fare. Perhaps they come up 99.9% less dangerous than current smokers, but if comparing that with current vapers, and tossing in fears around diketones, then in reality, the non-smoking people are taking a huge gamble staying alive doing whatever it is they are doing. I predict all of them will one day die from their non-smoking. Without exception.
My reading of the question was which direction were they off in. Higher than labeled, lower, or both, perhaps? Not the amount.
I can say this as fact for me...I smoked for 43 years and quit using e-cigs almost 2 years ago..My lungs have cleared up,..and my EKG looks great!
I had a heart attack and that still didn't make me quit smoking..Oh I tried..With pills,..patches,..and gum..Didn't any of that work.
Anything to help the industry with harm reduction should fly with us..But I don't think non disclosure helps our cause any at all.
I had a heart attack and that still didn't make me quit smoking..Oh I tried..With pills,..patches,..and gum..Didn't any of that work.
Anything to help the industry with harm reduction should fly with us..But I don't think non disclosure helps our cause any at all.
A lot of people say that finding the right flavor(s) is the most difficult part at first. That certainly was the case for me. Removing so many of the most popular flavors to try to protect people can have some negative consequences.
But who determines what is fair and proper amount of disclosure?
In free market, it is consumer. In regulated market, it is the regulators.
In free market, it is consumer. In regulated market, it is the regulators.
I'm one who argues against mandatory testing and disclosure, at this time. I don't argue against it because I don't want to know. I argue against it because, at this time, we don't KNOW that it's a credible threat. Now, that might sound callous, but I don't think it is.
Imagine you're a manufacturer and you have your line tested, and 9 out of 10 have low levels of DA or AP or both, above minimum detection but below OSHA safety limits, well below. Now you have the test results and you publish them. There's this big scare in the community about DA and AP even though we don't know what levels are acceptable, or if any levels are acceptable, so do you reformulate? Do you just say yes it's there, and let people scare away your customers? It's like vendors signing a pledge to not market to kids... You're admitting there is a problem when either there isn't, or you don't actually know that there is.
Now, there COULD be a problem, and I would like research to continue to determine IF there really is, and if there is we need to know.
The testing can just be done on the final product to determine if there is DA/AP present, it doesn't need to be done separately on each individual ingredient, so for most of the "premium" companies that have a somewhat limited range of products it should end up being pennies per bottle.
But you do bring up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of, that there are vendors out there that have a huge selection of flavors, and they get mixed to order so testing the final product would be troublesome, and testing all the ingredients would indeed be costly.
Like I said before I don't want any regulations, I think if it's feasible these companies SHOULD be testing for things that the community is concerned about. When it comes to places like Vape Wild or MBV I understand testing can become a lot more troublesome and/or more expensive due to how they operate.
But a lot of these juice companies have very limited offerings and testing would be super cheap and easy to perform, and under those circumstances I think it's a bit irresponsible of the company to not test their eliquids.
My belief is that a good deal of eqliquid manufactures are aware of the concern by some people in the community, but they just don't want to deal with it. If they test their products and find DA/AP do they reformulate? Will their new formula sell as well? Do they keep the same formula with a warning, leaving themselves even more open to potential legal trouble in the future? It's a lot to deal with for a company and I understand the hesitation, but I just can't stand companies that lie or deceive their customers.
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