Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[zoiDman]

Just Curious:

Has five pawns made any Official Statement yet?

 

[LouisLeBeau]

thanks for the response.
it is my opinion however the FDA is going to regulate the
life out of the industry regardless of what we do or don't
do. they will however use this debate as justification for
regulations. not because diacetyl or acetyl are harmful
in vaping but,because they will say if such small issues are
causing such concern in the vaping "community' we have
the obligation and duty to do it for them the right way.
as for 5P's,they are not violating any ones trust. least of
all the vaping 'community'. if you do not like their business
model,buy elsewhere.there is absolutely no need to be
tarnishing their reputation.they owe no one an apology.

regards
mike

again, IMO.
I have not asked for an apology from 5p. As far as trust, they have asked for trust based on these kind of statements:

"Five Pawns is dedicated to quality and is committed to providing an alternative for those wanting a pleasurable vice with less consequence. Five Pawns’ new PG-alternative line is just the latest in a long line of industry innovations. Five Pawns was the first liquid company to:

• Ship their liquid in 30ml, sealed and puncture resistant glass bottles with child-resistant and tamper‐evident caps and updated warning labels
• Add the extra step of secondary packaging to further ensure the safety of liquids
• Bring traceability to their vapor liquids with batch numbers, lot numbers, bottle numbers and bottling dates on both the bottle and packaging tube
• Utilize the trifecta of an ISO-8 manufacturing clean room and manufacturing standards to ensure product quality and control, consistency and traceability; a gravimetric pouring system to ensure greater accuracy and consistency in ingredient measurement; and a gyroscopic and orbital mixing system that provides optimal continuity within the finished product."

Now based on the test results from Cloud Nine, specifically with regards to the wide variance indicated in nicotine content from the stated quantity, do you still feel that they have earned the level of trustworthiness they have implied in the above statement? I don't. I've never bought from 5p, but I have tasted it. It was ok, but I didn't like the lingering taste of hubris. In full disclosure, that's my ax to grind with 5P.

 

[caramel]

We as vapers understand this. But we also understand this is an unregulated market, and we would VERY much like to KEEP it that way. The ONLY hope we have of avoiding regulation is by policing ourselves beyond doubt and with utmost integrity.

My question is who exactly is airing all these issues and making a mountain out of them? The non-vapers?

There's not one week without some furious activity on the diacetyl, "think of the children" or similar battle grounds here.

 

[skoony]

again, IMO.
I have not asked for an apology from 5p. As far as trust, they have asked for trust based on these kind of statements:

"Five Pawns is dedicated to quality and is committed to providing an alternative for those wanting a pleasurable vice with less consequence. Five Pawns’ new PG-alternative line is just the latest in a long line of industry innovations. Five Pawns was the first liquid company to:

• Ship their liquid in 30ml, sealed and puncture resistant glass bottles with child-resistant and tamper‐evident caps and updated warning labels
• Add the extra step of secondary packaging to further ensure the safety of liquids
• Bring traceability to their vapor liquids with batch numbers, lot numbers, bottle numbers and bottling dates on both the bottle and packaging tube
• Utilize the trifecta of an ISO-8 manufacturing clean room and manufacturing standards to ensure product quality and control, consistency and traceability; a gravimetric pouring system to ensure greater accuracy and consistency in ingredient measurement; and a gyroscopic and orbital mixing system that provides optimal continuity within the finished product."

Now based on the test results from Cloud Nine, specifically with regards to the wide variance indicated in nicotine content variance from the stated quantity, do you still feel that they have earned the level of trustworthiness they have implied in the above statement? I don't. I've never bought from 5p, but I have tasted it. It was ok, but I didn't like the lingering taste of hubris. In full disclosure, that's my ax to grind with 5P.

look if you want to rely on a competitors test results go ahead.
i have been watching closely over the last two years
how these and other vape related incidents have evolved.
its not a mater of trust. its a tempest in the tea pot.
if vendors choose to play on peoples fears so be it.
regards
ike

 

[AndriaD]

We as vapers understand this. But we also understand this is an unregulated market, and we would VERY much like to KEEP it that way. The ONLY hope we have of avoiding regulation is by policing ourselves beyond doubt and with utmost integrity. Players who come in and either do not know or worse, do know and don't tell, that their wares might contain chemicals of concern are a threat not only to we vapers, but also to our claims and hopes that we do not need strict government oversight of this industry.

Five Pawns imo, continuing to sell those wares online with the knowledge of these test results and without full disclosure, has violated the trust of its customers and the vape community as a whole. I am open to hearing their defense, but it should have been pro-active and now it will be reactive. Their business model is completely suspect at this point, and I hope their customers vote with their feet.

I have to say, I'm sure glad that 5P and SB are so blasted expensive, so I never tried them.

It's exactly the uncertainty that forced me to DIYing -- whether they say it's not in there or don't say anything, they could be lying, they could be misinformed, they could just be idiots. If I carefully select my own flavors and mix my own ejuice, I'm FARRRRRRR less likely to be vaping any diketones -- which, as noted, we don't even know yet IF it's a problem; to me, the risk is so horrible, it's not worth taking. I'll make my own!

Andria

 

[Robino1]

You still have to place your trust in someone. Even trusting the flavoring companies. Unless, as was suggested, you go the unflavored route. Still have to trust that the nic company is putting the right amount of nic into their solution.

There has to be some sort of trust somewhere. Hell, might as well give up everything.

What it boils down to: who do you trust?

 

[caramel]

What it boils down to: who do you trust?

Order this list according to trustworthiness:

- yourself
- independent lab reports
- vendor's claims
- FDA
- The Government in general

 

[Sirius]

We as vapers understand this. But we also understand this is an unregulated market, and we would VERY much like to KEEP it that way. The ONLY hope we have of avoiding regulation is by policing ourselves beyond doubt and with utmost integrity. Players who come in and either do not know or worse, do know and don't tell, that their wares might contain chemicals of concern are a threat not only to we vapers, but also to our claims and hopes that we do not need strict government oversight of this industry.

Five Pawns imo, continuing to sell those wares online with the knowledge of these test results and without full disclosure, has violated the trust of its customers and the vape community as a whole. I am open to hearing their defense, but it should have been pro-active and now it will be reactive. Their business model is completely suspect at this point, and I hope their customers vote with their feet.

IMO a reputable supplier will answer an email concerning the testing of their eliquids...I received an answer posed to a favorite eliquid vendor of mine..From Troop @ The Plume Room this morning:

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 4:13 AM,
{Removed email contents, if the Plume Room ok's that the contents can be published, then the post will be reinstated. Until then, please paraphrase what they stated.} [Moderator edit]

............................................................................................................................................................................

This tells me that TPR cares enough for them to send their own eliquids out for testing,..and that they are in it for the long haul.

 

[Sirius]

You still have to place your trust in someone. Even trusting the flavoring companies. Unless, as was suggested, you go the unflavored route. Still have to trust that the nic company is putting the right amount of nic into their solution.

There has to be some sort of trust somewhere. Hell, might as well give up everything.

What it boils down to: who do you trust?

Exactly Robin..and I trust those that shoot straight with me when I ask a question and not lie about it.

 

[BigEgo]

thanks for the response.
it is my opinion however the FDA is going to regulate the
life out of the industry regardless of what we do or don't
do. they will however use this debate as justification for
regulations. not because diacetyl or acetyl are harmful
in vaping but,because they will say if such small issues are
causing such concern in the vaping "community' we have
the obligation and duty to do it for them the right way.
as for 5P's,they are not violating any ones trust. least of
all the vaping 'community'. if you do not like their business
model,buy elsewhere.there is absolutely no need to be
tarnishing their reputation.they owe no one an apology.

regards
mike

Five Pawns has been deleting comments about these results on their Facebook page. Anyone who mentions the tests or asks FP for comment has their comments instantly deleted. Does that sound like a company that has nothing to hide?

 

[Sirius]

Five Pawns has been deleting comments about these results on their Facebook page. Anyone who mentions the tests or asks FP for comment has their comments instantly deleted. Does that sound like a company that has nothing to hide?

 

[caramel]

 

[gin828]

Five Pawns has been deleting comments about these results on their Facebook page. Anyone who mentions the tests or asks FP for comment has their comments instantly deleted. Does that sound like a company that has nothing to hide?

Exactly my point!!!

IMO....They should defend the product they make or issue some kind of acknowledgement.

 

[AndriaD]

Order this list according to trustworthiness:

- yourself
- independent lab reports
- vendor's claims
- FDA
- The Government in general

I think there should be a differentiation of vendors -- flavor vendors, or ejuice vendors. TFA tells you everything that's in their flavors; BCV shows quite plainly which flavors need "caution" -- flavor vendors have been around for many, many years, and will undoubtedly be around for a great many more, regardless of the presence or absence of vaping -- they have no particular skin in the vaping game; if vaping goes under, they will remain. So I trust them a hell of a lot more than these johnny-come-lately vape vendors. And BTW, TFA does have the lab reports available for consumer perusal.

Andria

 

[LouisLeBeau]

You still have to place your trust in someone. Even trusting the flavoring companies. Unless, as was suggested, you go the unflavored route. Still have to trust that the nic company is putting the right amount of nic into their solution.

There has to be some sort of trust somewhere. Hell, might as well give up everything.

What it boils down to: who do you trust?

Shortly after I started vaping 3 years ago, I started to DIY. I posed a question to TFA about their flavorings and their safety in regards to vaping. They were very straight forward in that they did not really know as the flavorings were meant as food additives and in that sense, were absolutely safe but that a lot of unknowns are present with regards to vaping.

I then chanced across a vendor who is a flavor chemist that started in the business with the sole interest of helping his fellow Marines quit smoking. Their safety was his tantamount concern and he was very sincere about that. I decided to place my trust in him based on long conversations, and I still place it there. No issue is too small to at least examine and consider when it comes to safety. I enjoy vaping, but like smoking, if it is detrimental to my health, I want to know. I want the right to choose if the risk is worth it to me, or if I prefer to quit this as well.

If juice vendors go the same route that BT went, placing their customers safety second to profit and not fully disclosing even potential health concerns, well that would be ironic wouldn't it?

 

[caramel]

[...]
If juice vendors go the same route that BT went, placing their customers safety second to profit and not fully disclosing even potential health concerns, well that would be ironic wouldn't it?

Give me a few examples of industries that don't.

 

[schismz]

5P was supposed to be near the top of the game as far as business and advocacy goes.

I hate to say it, but so far this industry has failed to self regulate, and have outright lied in many cases.

OMG no, for reals? Companies in a totally unregulated industry lying to us? They'd never do that! If they ever got caught then... oh, wait, nothing will happen because they're not breaking any laws.

Five Pawns containing DA and AP isn't really too shocking. I was expecting that.

What's more than a little disturbing is that their levels are so f-----g high that some of them contain 6x the levels of even Suicide Bunny and have set a world record for the most toxic sludge ever sold (that's been tested so far anyway) and the fact that more than half their samples come up with not containing the nicotine levels that are labelled on the bottle. That's just not acceptable in 2015.

In conclusion I guess it's obvious that Five Pawns spends 90%+ of their time and energy on marketing and can't even be bothered to make sure that 6mg/ml nic, is actually 6mg and not some random number. I could accept this in 2012, I would even expect it from smaller mom and pop shops, but a company that's basically printing money has absolutely no excuse for this bull.....

 

[Mazinny]

Five Pawns has been deleting comments about these results on their Facebook page. Anyone who mentions the tests or asks FP for comment has their comments instantly deleted. Does that sound like a company that has nothing to hide?

Five pawns is the only vendor ( whose juice i vape ) that i had concerns about purely based on the flavor profile of some of their liquids. When the Vaporshark report was published i sent them an email asking if they had lab reports.( Previously they had told me that all their liquids are diketone free and the results will be on their site soon. Their rep on Reddit ( Vinnie977 ) had said the same when the SB story came out about nine months ago. ) When i didn't get a response, i called last week the customer service rep told me that she can't comment and the person who can is Gavin Tucker and she will connect me to his phone. Left a message for Gavin and received no response. Called again about an hour ago and was told by their customer service rep that they have been instructed not to comment on this topic, but they can take my name and number if i like. When i asked why Gavin Tucker hasn't responded, i was told that he has been out of the country and is returning later today.

Suicide Bunny was doing the exact same thing with deleting facebook posts btw.

 

[Bman123]

This is the reason I started making juice for myself and my friends. You have no clue what's actually in most of these companies juice and the price is just insane.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Sirius]

Shortly after I started vaping 3 years ago, I started to DIY. I posed a question to TFA about their flavorings and their safety in regards to vaping. They were very straight forward in that they did not really know as the flavorings were meant as food additives and in that sense, were absolutely safe but that a lot of unknowns are present with regards to vaping.

I then chanced across a vendor who is a flavor chemist that started in the business with the sole interest of helping his fellow Marines quit smoking. Their safety was his tantamount concern and he was very sincere about that. I decided to place my trust in him based on long conversations, and I still place it there. No issue is too small to at least examine and consider when it comes to safety. I enjoy vaping, but like smoking, if it is detrimental to my health, I want to know. I want the right to choose if the risk is worth it to me, or if I prefer to quit this as well.

If juice vendors go the same route that BT went, placing their customers safety second to profit and not fully disclosing even potential health concerns, well that would be ironic wouldn't it?

LeBeau..In short,.. Troop let me know,..( and I don't have permission to post his email so bear with me ) that TPR feels confident about the testing results and would'nt sell a juice that wasn't top quality.. Troop and Andrea have worked hard for the industry and their passion is harm reduction..I am fully confident in both Ahlusion and TPR as far as quality goes and that they would never sell a juice knowingly that contained diacetyl / diketones.

That being said,..who would be willing to publish a test with diacetyl free results and then on retesting,..have that same juice come back with trace ammounts?!? It would seem to many to be dishonest and it would be no fault of theirs as they buy these flavorings by the gallons.