Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[pennysmalls]

I think it is willpower and a commitment to quit, which is missing, not diketone rich custards...

From what I've observed of her I do think that willpower is an issue for her but for others it's not.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm thinking about my co-woker whom I've known for just under two years. She was vaping when I met her and is still battling to make the switch complete. I don't know why she hasn't been able to switch and I can't relate to it at all but there's obviously something going on with her and if what she needs is certain flavors that may or may not contain the levels of DA and AP that some here balk at, then that's what she'll need. I'd hate to see that option taken from her.

I hate to Agree with steve. And I seldom do.

But when I hear about someone like your Co-Worker, I think more times than Not, that steve is Right.

If a person is Really Hooked on Cigarettes, they have to REALLY Want to Quit. And are Willing to Grit Their Teeth to get what they Want. I made Many Attempts to Quit. But looking back, I Didn't really want to Quit. Not 100%. And that is why I didn't.

 

[pennysmalls]

I hate to Agree with steve. And I seldom do.

But when I hear about someone like your Co-Worker, I think more times than Not, that steve is Right.

If a person is Really Hooked on Cigarettes, they have to REALLY Want to Quit. And are Willing to Grit Their Teeth to get what they Want. I made Many Attempts to Quit. But looking back, I Didn't really want to Quit. Not 100%. And that is why I didn't.

Yep, agreed. I quit via vaping without wanting to quit, vaping was just that good in my mind so I have a hard time relating to her. I've loaned her my mods and given her tons of juice trying to help her. But my point is that for some that one magic juice just may be what pushes them over completely despite lack of willpower, but that's what happened for me so I may be projecting a little.

 

[YoursTruli]

I'm thinking about my co-woker whom I've known for just under two years. She was vaping when I met her and is still battling to make the switch complete. I don't know why she hasn't been able to switch and I can't relate to it at all but there's obviously something going on with her and if what she needs is certain flavors that may or may not contain the levels of DA and AP that some here balk at, then that's what she'll need. I'd hate to see that option taken from her.

Thing of it is for every flavor that is high in diketones there are comparable flavors that are not, but, the point is if diketones are present in any eliquid it should be disclosed to everyone so vapers can chose if they want to buy it or not.

As a side note regarding your friend vaping is not for everyone, it will not work for everyone to get them off the smokes. My son is a perfect example of vaping just not working for someone no matter what nic-level/flavor/gear he has seriously tried over the past 2 years he still smokes.

 

[zoiDman]

Yep, agreed. I quit via vaping without wanting to quit, vaping was just that good in my mind so I have a hard time relating to her. I've loaned her my mods and given her tons of juice trying to help her. But my point is that for some that one magic juice just may be what pushes them over completely despite lack of willpower, but that's what happened for me so I may be projecting a little.

I can Only speak for Myself. But I Struggled with Switching. And I don't think there was Any one single Magic e-Liquid that would have made it better. But who knows?

BTW - I had to use 36mg/ml for the First Month to be Cigarette Free. Sometimes I wonder if people who are having a Hard time Switch are using a High enough mg/ml to get over the Hump.

I think the e-Cigarette Industry, in general, has done a Dis-Service to those who are trying to Switch by Comparing say 18mg/ml as to what is Equivalent to a PAD Habit.

Some people just Can't Switch using 18mg/ml. And need something Higher when the Craving come a'calling.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - Something that should be Consider is when I Switched with 36mg/ml, I was using a Boge Carto on a KR808d.

36mg/ml Today in a Sub-Ohm Tank or RBA at 35 Watts is a Tad Different than 36mg/ml in a Carto at 6 Watts.

LOL

 

[Jman8]

People make the point that we didn't worry so much about all the chemicals in cigarettes, but now we worry about DK's. However, like you said we quit smoking for a reason. I knew bad stuff was going into my lungs when I smoked. I didn't have a choice about that. I was addicted. So worrying about the specific contents of the smoke I was inhaling was kind of pointless.

I had to take cigarettes as they came, it was all or nothing. With vaping I can control the ingredients. So paying attention to it has some value.

I find it hard to understand the "I didn't have a choice about that. I was addicted." I understand what is being said, but think it is challenging to understand the lack of choice part.

I'd also say as one who makes the point that is being countered in recent posts, it isn't the idea that you didn't care then, why care now? Instead it is, you did it then, you survived, you claim health now, and yet also claim inhaling this would be dangerous, when you already have inhaled it for decades. Thus, it seems like an inflated concern to say it matters significantly now, and is all about your health, when you'd arguably be past any reasonable point of legitimate concern.

Yet, even with that said, as you said, you can control the ingredients. Thus, one must question why any consumer would demand industry exercise full restriction and abandon something that vast majority of users have inhaled for decades, and that, if they choose now, can be controlled entirely by the consumer based on their choices for what they wish to vape, assuming they are willing to take the steps to make / mix / test what it is they are vaping.

 

[englishmick]

I find it hard to understand the "I didn't have a choice about that. I was addicted." I understand what is being said, but think it is challenging to understand the lack of choice part.

I get this. I think it's more a matter of the words we use than anything. We all know what addiction means. Is picking up that cig a choice? Depends on what meaning you lay on the word choice I guess.

Yet, even with that said, as you said, you can control the ingredients. Thus, one must question why any consumer would demand industry exercise full restriction and abandon something that vast majority of users have inhaled for decades, and that, if they choose now, can be controlled entirely by the consumer based on their choices for what they wish to vape, assuming they are willing to take the steps to make / mix / test what it is they are vaping.

I certainly agree with that. I read this comment recently on a discussion about religious tolerance, "I don't eat pork but I don't feel the need to stop other people eating pork".

 

[KattMamma]

Actually it WAS the flavors for me. I tried a BUNCH of flavors and only liked one - a cheesecake flavor. The first week was so easy I was amazed. Then something happened with a batch of the cheesecake and it had almost NO flavor (it wasn't vapors tongue - they hired new people to make the flavors and they messed up). I was nearly hysterical. I was trying other flavors and hating them... almost went back to smoking but finally found a vanilla flavor that worked.

If it was just the nic, I would have been upset about the lack of flavor but could have dealt with it. But it was the flavor that was helping me resist cigs as much as the nic, if not more.

Both of these flavors have diketones. But without them, I'd still be smoking.

Let people quit smoking using whatever works. After successfully quitting, they will have more options - they can learn about flavors and choose based on their own beliefs, or they can quit vaping, or vape unflavored, whatever.

 

[Jman8]

I get this. I think it's more a matter of the words we use than anything. We all know what addiction means. Is picking up that cig a choice? Depends on what meaning you lay on the word choice I guess.

I don't think anyone chooses to be addicted to something, but I do think addicts continually choose to use (or not use) something. I also think its possible to be addicted to something, and choose to use it in such a way where it is then used in moderation. As I have chosen to do with smoking. I was at one point (or more like many points) addicted to smoking, and now I actively choose to be a moderate smoker, who is very much not addicted to smoking.

 

[Jman28546]

I don't trust any juice vendor, quite frankly. Been DIY for almost two years now, and I've narrowed that down to mostly un-flavored nicotine base, with a teeny tiny percentage of flavoring for subtle variety. I only use TFA flavorings that I know the test results of as well. Never mix it weaker than 24mg nicotine.

And it wasn't even diacetyl or acetyl propionyl that got me to never trust e-liquid vendors. The first time I saw e-liquid colored "Smurf Blue" with food coloring, I had to question it. The food coloring added, for no damn good reason, was motivation enough.

There are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Even now as it stands, it seems EVERY "vape-famous" youtube reviewer now has their very own line of "gourmet" e-liquid. Grimmgreen, Rip Trippers, Twisted420, Suck My Mod, Ruby Roo, all of them selling juice. I'm not implying that these people are untrustworthy, just saying... it's a thing.

What also irks me, is this trend of cloud chasing super low nic e-liquid, that per volume contains none of the nicotine that gets us to put a vape down, and all flavoring. People are burning through 15-30ml of juice a day, so they can fog up the room, and vape at a much more frequent rate without over nic'ing themselves into the jitters whilst tasting their delicious juice and creating weather systems. All this without realizing they are exposing their lungs to 10x the mystery chemicals that make up the flavoring. It's just the perfect storm for disaster when that e-liquid contains some flavoring chemical that is gonna mess you up. Make no mistake, it's NEVER BEEN the VG/PG/Nicotine that is bad, it's the flavoring. Harm reduction? Nope... not any more it would seem.

I'll stick to my high nic 24mg, and vape far less often, thank you. I'm after the nicotine, after all.

"You vape 24mg?? On an RDA?? You're insane!" - A typical vapor will smugly say to me, and then proceed to lung bust 12 insanely large pulls of 3mg juice that wreaks of a fine powdered donut stuffed with vanilla custard.

At some point, nicotine became the enemy for no good reason other than being a victim of high wattage vaping and cloud chasing/flavor chasing trends. It's just not cool to take 1-2 pulls, feel the nicotine buzz hit you strong on, and be satisfied and done with it for awhile anymore. Nope. Gotta lower that nicotine to nearly zero, so you chain vape the trendiest brand of e-liquid at unprecedented quantities. I was even responding in a thread a few days ago, where a poster confidently told me that any e-liquid over 12mg is of garbage quality, and any vendor that sells you that is untrustworthy, or something to that extent. Really? REALLY???? You sure that vendor isn't selling you 3mg, so you can chain vape it without getting the jitters, and so you have to vape such a large quantity of it, that you have to buy 3x the amount from said vendor?

There are so many would-be "gourmet" e-liquid vendors, it's just out of control. It's beyond the point of industry wide self-regulation. Like I said, just too many damn cooks in the kitchen, who don't frankly care about health, in the slightest, but rather the dollars. Big surprise!

Russ, the host of Click Bang, cold called a whole bunch of the guilty e-liquid manufacturers found on the Vapershark site, recorded the calls, and played them on his show. Some of these e-liquids tested in PPM numbers that we have NEVER seen before. As far high as 2,000PPM. Over 10x the amount of diacetyl or acetyl propionyl results that shook the community with the study that Dr Farsalinos put out a long while back. And people are vaping/conusming 10x the amount of this stuff with current low nic vaping trends.

The response from the guilty vendors caught with their pants down was no surprise:

-" Ummm.. we were unaware that it contained any diacetyl or acetyl propionyl."

OR

- "Ummm.. that was an old formula they tested. We changed that a month ago."

When asked why they changed it only a month ago, when the problem has been known about for years, the answer was inevitably:

- "Ummm.. well... ummm..."

One guy blatantly made up a make believe boss who had the answers, but who was conveniently unreachable at the moment, and who had a voice mail that couldn't be connected to because "the desk phone is broken."

Another good one is Suicide Bunny. Her answer is "Suicide Bunny contains no diacetyl." While that may be true, it contains an alarming amount of acetyl propionyl, which is exactly as harmful.

Liars indeed. Skirting around the truth, gettin' in on the e-liquid money train.

I really don't care anymore. So as long as unflavored nicotine solution remains accessible, I kind of hope the FDA puts the smackdown on this out of control mess. Sure, there are good vendors, but just like most things in a free market, a few bad apples can and will spoil the entire bunch. The damage is done. That's just how things go down, I'm afraid.

Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Dude I'm 100% in the same boat with you..you couldn't have said it any better..there's only one eliquid that I crave and that's halo Tribeca/juicy vapor double feature they practically taste the same..but I can tell you they use a butter popcorn flavor in these and I'm almost positive there is DA or some form of diketones in it..I've gotten tired of finding out every eliquid I like has large amounts of bad chems or unknown chems..switched to nude nic base unflavored and I realized just how good unflavored is..I mix up some light ry4 for some evening enjoyment other than that {moderated} paying 22 dollars a bottle for 3 mg nic liquids loaded with flavor chems to blow through in a day or two..went back to a kayfun light a few days ago 90% unflavored and honestly I don't miss drippin one bit, all the flavors that I can't vape all day and could possibly be causing unknown problems not to mention what I was paying..i can mix 120 mls for a few dollars unflavored with a few drops of ethyl maltol and get a good lightly sweet true adv...I really do think it has gotten wayyy outta hand and I'm guilty of being on the train myself...but no more..biggest problem is people are mixing all these chems for Penny's on the dollar and raping people and lying about theyre contents and are perfectly fine with it..I say avoid flavorings as much as possible you be surprised if you vape unflavored for a day why its the best adv I didn't believe until no and I see more and more people saying the same thing...... all these greedy .......s that care about their pockets more than total harm reduction..people can make their own decisions but I believe it's going in the wrong direction

 

[AngiBe]

Dude I'm 100 in the same boat with you..you couldn't have said it any better..there's only one eliquid that I crave and that's halo Tribeca/juicy vapor double feature they practically taste the same..but I can tell you they use a butter popcorn flavor in these and I'm almost positive there is DA or some form of sometimes in it..I've gotten tired of finding out every eliquid I like has large amounts are bad chems..swith to nude nic base unflavored and I realized just how good unflavored is..I mix up some light ry4 for some evening enjoyment other than that {moderated} paying 22 dollars a bottle for 3 mg nic liquids loaded with flavor chems to blow through in a day or two..went back to a kayfun light a few days ago 90% unflavored and honestly I don't miss it one bit..I really do think it has gotten wayyy outta hand and I'm guilty of being on the train myself...but no more

@Jman28546 , Halo posted their lab results..

https://www.halocigs.com/blog/halos-eliquid-test-results/

 

[Jman28546]

@Jman28546 , Halo posted their lab results..

https://www.halocigs.com/blog/halos-eliquid-test-results/

I dnt quite believe those results to be honest..considering how much they make off that one flavor and the nature of the flavor...who knows?..I'm not gonna point any fingers this is just my opinion I would be happy to be wrong more than right...considering the amounts of vendors exposed for their contents..the best way to test is to pull bottles from resellers for testing so there is no possibility for the vendor to ship off a diluted or dumbed down bottle of the juice to pass the test..just saying its possible..as much as I love Tribeca I still believe there has to be diketones of some amount

 

[DC2]

I dnt quite believe those results to be honest..considering how much they make off that one flavor and the nature of the flavor...who knows?..I'm not gonna point any fingers this is just my opinion I would be happy to be wrong more than right...

I sent in my Halo Tribeca to be tested independently by Nude Nicotine, and it was diketone-free.

 

[AngiBe]

I sent in my Halo Tribeca to be tested independently by Nude Nicotine, and it was diketone-free.

hehehehhe..was gonna post that too @DC2 .

I know DC2 did this bcoz, I pitched in with him to get it tested too. It's legit...DA/AP free.

@Jman28546, but I do get what you're saying. I just got rid of a BUNCH of expensive, good juices bcoz the vendors haven't tested, won't test and what have you. I'm done w/chemical filled juices. They may not taste as good, but like you, I'm not w/that stuff.

 

[Jman8]

There are no chemicals in unflavored?

 

[AngiBe]

There are no chemicals in unflavored?

I believe the "harmful" chemicals DA/AP are directly linked with certain flavorings but not 100% sure about unflavored

 

[zoiDman]

I believe the "harmful" chemicals DA/AP are directly linked with certain flavorings but not 100% sure about unflavored

Yeah... Not much in Unflavored but PG, VG and Nicotine.

With the Exception of possibly some H2O.

 

[snork]

I sent in my Halo Tribeca to be tested independently by Nude Nicotine, and it was diketone-free.

Isn't that a beautiful feeling?

 

[Jman8]

I believe the "harmful" chemicals DA/AP are directly linked with certain flavorings but not 100% sure about unflavored

So glad you put harmful in quotes. Ya know, given the nature and perception of nicotine.

I find it odd that anyone thinks unflavored is going to receive fair treatment on the safe to inhale scale going forward. If I were ANTZ-like, I'd be thinking wow it was super duper easy to get you all to back off your liking of flavors, just wait till we get to the other stuff. We'll convince you soon enough that you are in danger of inhaling unflavored liquid.