Do you know Nic?

[Girod]

The difference between you and me is that you are ending up with a 30mg 100% PG base. You have a little more PG than you need, assuming you are trying to make max VG mixes. But by the time you get down to 3mg it probably doesn't matter much. What's 1.5% extra PG among friends? It would matter more if you were in the 12-24mg final mix range.

I'm not doing max vg, I normally do 70vg/30pg. I just tried playing around with my recipes a bit with 30mg and realized I can't do 80/20 3mg with over 10% flavor (PG based). I was doing my method because I didn't want to premix VG/PG/nic for flexibility and simplicity, and it was easy to make 30mg PG nic. I might have to re-think that one.

 

[VNeil]

I'm not doing max vg, I normally do 70vg/30pg. I just tried playing around with my recipes a bit with 30mg and realized I can't do 80/20 3mg with over 10% flavor (PG based). I was doing my method because I didn't want to premix VG/PG/nic for flexibility and simplicity, and it was easy to make 30mg PG nic. I might have to re-think that one.

You actually are pushing the edge of "max VG" mixes, depending on your flavor ratio. As I think you understand now. I went through the same evolution a while back, gradually increasing the VG content of my interim base mixes. And I really enjoy dripping 100% VG, with just a couple mg of my 50/50 concentrate (not even a full 3mg as I'm learning that I enjoy 1-1.5mg at 45W or so in my newer higher power mods).

 

[Wow1420]

Why would I use a 72mg per Ml. Nicotine when I can use a 100mg. Per Ml. Help me understand why anyone would use less Nicotine Vg based if the target rate is onle 3%? Where can I store Nicotine (safely) can it freeze?

First, I want to be sure everyone reading this thread is aware that 3% nicotine is not the same as 3mg/ml nic. 3% is 30mg/ml.

When I started DIY mixing, I bought 36mg or 48mg base until I became more comfortable and familiar with the mixing process. Now I get 100mg because of the cost savings.

I really dislike using an all VG base because the thickness makes pouring and measuring more difficult and error prone compared to using the thinner PG base.

 

[VNeil]

Why would I use a 72mg per Ml. Nicotine when I can use a 100mg. Per Ml. Help me understand why anyone would use less Nicotine Vg based if the target rate is onle 3%? Where can I store Nicotine (safely) can it freeze?

Getting back to the original question, if you are stockpiling for the vapocalypse then the higher the concentration the more you can store in your freezer, where your long term storage belongs. And it's usually cheaper in higher concentrations up to 100mg, and usually cheapest by the liter.

But the biggest benefit for me, which might have only been mentioned in passing, is the easier computations. I can calculate the 100mg nic concentrate in my head without concern for higher math . One percent of 100mg concentrate = 1mg nic. So in a 10ml final mix, I need 0.1ml of nic. For a 100ml mix, I need 1ml (per mg). Using 72mg, there is all sorts of ugly math like multiply by 7.2, carry the 2...

Even if I use a calculator app, I like to do a mental sanity check on the output. You know, garbage in, garbage out. And this 1% = 1mg is burned into my brain now. And this is one reason I personally do not downmix my concentrate EXCEPT to make a final base slightly higher than my final mix, ready to add flavoring (e.g. 4.25mg base for a 3mg final mix at my typical 30% flavoring ratio)

 

[suprtrkr]

I buy mine at 10% or 10mg/ml. It's a lot safer to handle than higher concentrations. But it still merits treating with respect.

 

[Vapenstein]

Yes. Why would someone use less concentrated Nic.

I use 24mg base. I vape 2mg, and with 24mg base my flavorings and my nic are my total PG content, so all I have to keep on hand besides my base and flavorings is VG. My recipes all end up in between 70-80% VG, which is right where I want them. So for me, 24mg nic base just makes mixing my juice up easier.

 

[VNeil]

I really dislike using an all VG base because the thickness makes pouring and measuring more difficult and error prone compared to using the thinner PG base.

I've had good success warming VG in the microwave. It turns it into the viscosity of room temp PG, more or less. With a NIC base I guess that raises the issue of unnecessary oxidation. I bought my 100mg in a 50/50 base, trying to split this difference. I usually don't need to warm it. My working stock of 100mg concentrate is kept in a 30ml bottle so if I do warm it, it's not a huge long term batch adn will only be warmed so many times.

My bigger concern with the idea of VG based NIC was ensuring the initial purchase was well mixed before I split it down into smaller storage bottles. The biggest risk of uneven mixes occurs when bottles of nic are split up. For my last liter I poured it into a well cleaned 2 liter plastic soda bottle and shook it up as best I could. At 50/50 it mixed well without heating it. If it were VG I suspect I would have tried to microwave it a bit, or some other way of warming it.

 

[DennisBoyd123]

Getting back to the original question, if you are stockpiling for the vapocalypse then the higher the concentration the more you can store in your freezer, where your long term storage belongs. And it's usually cheaper in higher concentrations up to 100mg, and usually cheapest by the liter.

But the biggest benefit for me, which might have only been mentioned in passing, is the easier computations. I can calculate the 100mg nic concentrate in my head without concern for higher math . One percent of 100mg concentrate = 1mg nic. So in a 10ml final mix, I need 0.1ml of nic. For a 100ml mix, I need 1ml (per mg). Using 72mg, there is all sorts of ugly math like multiply by 7.2, carry the 2...

Even if I use a calculator app, I like to do a mental sanity check on the output. You know, garbage in, garbage out. And this 1% = 1mg is burned into my brain now. And this is one reason I personally do not downmix my concentrate EXCEPT to make a final base slightly higher than my final mix, ready to add flavoring (e.g. 4.25mg base for a 3mg final mix at my typical 30% flavoring ratio)

30% flavor, Wow! Do use a 70 VG and 30 PG in that mix?

 

[DennisBoyd123]

I've had good success warming VG in the microwave. It turns it into the viscosity of room temp PG, more or less. With a NIC base I guess that raises the issue of unnecessary oxidation. I bought my 100mg in a 50/50 base, trying to split this difference. I usually don't need to warm it. My working stock of 100mg concentrate is kept in a 30ml bottle so if I do warm it, it's not a huge long term batch adn will only be warmed so many times.

My bigger concern with the idea of VG based NIC was ensuring the initial purchase was well mixed before I split it down into smaller storage bottles. The biggest risk of uneven mixes occurs when bottles of nic are split up. For my last liter I poured it into a well cleaned 2 liter plastic soda bottle and shook it up as best I could. At 50/50 it mixed well without heating it. If it were VG I suspect I would have tried to microwave it a bit, or some other way of warming it.

Couldn't you use a 10% DW water or Vodka to thin the VG? With out taking away from Flavor?

 

[VNeil]

30% flavor, Wow! Do use a 70 VG and 30 PG in that mix?

No I don't. I mix my flavoring into 100% VG. I vape at 3mg, and my 100mg nic concentrate is 50/50 so my nic is only further diluting my final by about 1.5%. So if my flavor is 30%, I'm vaping 31.5P/68.5V but just among us friends I call it 30/70

If I used 30P/70G as a base mix, my final mix would only be around 50% VG because the flavoring is assumed (for simplicity) to be 100% PG.

I got most of my recipes from the "The Flavoring Apprentice Flavoring Thread" in the DIY subsection under the eLiquid section. The primary contributors to that very long thread were advocates of ~30% high flavor mixes, for various reasons, which I agreed with in theory (mainly no long steeping necessary). So I never fixed what isn't really broken and enjoy the ADVs that I got out of that thread. The main drawback, aside from cost, is that it puts your max possible VG at slightly under 70%. I do like my VG

 

[VNeil]

Couldn't you use a 10% DW water or Vodka to thin the VG? With out taking away from Flavor?

I've never added vodka or other alcohol to my mixes. That just forces you to breathe it out (most people don't like alcohol in the final mix). And water changes the nature of the vape. I sometimes add 10% DW to VG as an unflavored vape, but it is different than 100% VG and I would not want that in my base mixes. Just my own personal preference.

ETA: And if I added 10% water or alcohol to my 100mg concentrate I would end up with 91mg concentrate, and I previously mentioned that I like 100mg simply because it's an easy number to juggle in my head when doing doing mixes and sanity checks on mixing app results.

 

[VNeil]

Along the lines of potential dangers of high concentrate mix, I'll mention my biggest concern. It isn't that I might store my 100mg nic in a soda bottle, in the fridge, and stagger down to my fridge late at night and grab it instead of the Pepsi (there is some sort of Darwin award in that one, guys).

My personal fear is that I grab a glass bottle out of the freezer and especially because of the condensation on it, it slips out of my hand and shatters on my kitchen tile floor. That would be a hell of a mess. I'm not worried about me, as much as my small hoard of cats.

So I outer wrap my bottles in zip lock bags. And I probably should tape them up to try to keep the plastic wrap as intact as possible in the event of that particular flavor of Armageddon.

 

[Robino1]

I've moved your thread to the DIY section of the forum. It is a better fit here

 

[DennisBoyd123]

I can't tell you how excited I am to (VMOB) "Vape My Own Blends" its crazy, I can't stop thinking about it. I have become information sponge I can't get enough! Im going to order my DIY kit next week, truly thankful for this Forum! Its so great in so many ways! Thank you, thank you.

 

[DennisBoyd123]

I've moved your thread to the DIY section of the forum. It is a better fit here

Sorry! As you can tell I am an enfant! Haha! Its so fun!

 

[VNeil]

I can't tell you how excited I am to (VMOB) "Vape My Own Blends" its crazy, I can't stop thinking about it. I have become information sponge I can't get enough! Im going to order my DIY kit next week, truly thankful for this Forum! Its so great in so many ways! Thank you, thank you.

DIY is better than sex.

Not really

Anyway, it *is* very gratifying and it is nice to be not only as self sufficient as possible, but to fully understand exactly what you are vaping and why. Puts a whole new spin on this "hobby". That and rebuildables. And you can make juice for pennies a bottle. After you spend a couple grand on flavors

 

[DennisBoyd123]

DIY is better than sex.

Not really

Anyway, it *is* very gratifying and it is nice to be not only as self sufficient as possible, but to fully understand exactly what you are vaping and why. Puts a whole new spin on this "hobby". That and rebuildables. And you can make juice for pennies a bottle. After you spend a couple grand on flavors

I will save money in the long run, right?

 

[Mr.Mann]

I use 24mg base. I vape 2mg, and with 24mg base my flavorings and my nic are my total PG content, so all I have to keep on hand besides my base and flavorings is VG. My recipes all end up in between 70-80% VG, which is right where I want them. So for me, 24mg nic base just makes mixing my juice up easier.

@Vapenstein

But what do you know about great liquids, let alone making great liquids?

 

[VNeil]

I will save money in the long run, right?

You will save a TON of money IF, IF, IF you exercise self control when buying flavors.

Here are the economics... after you get your feet wet, you can buy VG and PG for about $25/gallon, shipped. That is 1.3 cents/ml.

Nic is about $50/liter in 100mg concentrate. If you vape 10mg nic, that would make 10 liters and works out to 0.5 cents per ml of final juice. Contrary to what you might have been told, nic is really cheap in the dilutions you use it, if you buy it right. You may not be comfortable handling 100mg nic right away, you might get your feet wet with 24mg concentrate or something like that, in a strength you may be used to actually vaping. Or whatever you are comfortable with.

I vape 3mg max now, in a dripper or subohm tank, so my nic cost is 0.15 cents/ml.

ETA: assuming I vape 15ml a day, at 3mg that $50 liter of nic will last me 6 years. That's about as cheap as things get.

You can make unflavored juice for under 2 cents per ml, that's less than $0.60/ounce (30ml).

Most people can buy a minimum year supply of unflavored juice for $75/$100. Add $50 for supplies if you don't go too crazy building your chemistry set . Some syringes, a starter set of juice bottles (they cost more than the juice!).

Now you get to flavors. The basic cost of flavoring is about $6-$10/4 oz bottle for TFA flavoring, direct from TFA/TPA or some vape shop distributors. So the theoretical cost is about 6.7 cents/ml, and if you use a very high flavor mix (HFM) like me- 30%, that averages out to about 2 cents per ml of final juice.

So your theoretical cost for a high flavor mix juice can easily be around 3.5 cents/ml, or about a buck for a 30 ml/1 oz bottle that would sell for $10 - $30 as a commercial mix. And you may well find your juice (especially at the HFM ratio I mentioned) to be fully premium or better than anything you buy.

Now obviously if you buy 100 bottles, 4 oz each, you are going to spend upwards of $1K. So you will probably do something like the 8ml sample sizes from Wizard Labs at $1.49 (18.6 cents/ml or triple the bulk cost). And then probably buy 1 or 4 oz bottles of your favorite flavors. And interestingly, the basic cost of flavoring for a 1 oz bottle is $4 - $5.50 or so, where TFA 4 oz bottles will run you $6 - $10 depending on flavor and maybe averaging $8.50 or so. So what do you think you end up buying?

(TFA is not only a very wide line of flavors, with a ton of recipes here, but it is probably about the most economical flavor line. From a cost and flexibility standpoint it is hard to beat although other lines have their advocates)

So, the short story is that I am making flavored juice now for 3.5 cents per ml but I've spend $603 just on flavors in the 9 months or so since I started DIY. LOL. But I had a fun time doing it. And while I was mixing it kept me out of the bars (I never mix at night, that's bar time!)

Don't be me... don't get excited about every recipe you see and buy 100++ flavors. Unless you want to . There are actually some good lists of basic flavors, where if you like fruity.sweet flavors you can be well covered with about 20 flavors.

 

[DennisBoyd123]

Well, Well, Well you are a wealth of knowledge! Thank you for taking the time to write a insightful article! Wow! What is TFA,TPA and HFM?