I have 14500 900mAh 3.7v Trustfiire Flame batteries. If I understand correctly, theC rating of these batts puts the max capacity at 1.35 amps. using ohm's law, does that mean that all i am getting out of these batts (when using a 2.0 ohm atty/carto for example) is 3.645 watts? even if i plug a 3 ohm carto into the calculator, all i get is 5.46 watts. is this Really all im getting?
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Well, you've asked a tough question... The answer is yes. And the answer is no. Maybe i can clarify, but I might just end up making matters harder to understand 
OK. C rating is the maximum continuous discharge specification that won't harm the battery. It isn't the maximum the battery can discharge. It's also determined by a full discharge - in the case of a 3.7v battery, that means discharging from ~4.2v to ~2.5v. Even though all manufacturers call it a "maximum c rating", it's more of an average than a maximum when the manufacturer tests their cells.
In the case of the trustfire flame 14500: I have load tested these batts. And to remind myself of my findings, I just did a couple of quick load tests of a couple of them I have here on my desk. Both came off the charger about a month or so ago and are reading 4.15v at rest.
With a 2.0 ohm load, one of them achieved 3.33v and the other one achieved 3.36v. I recall in my last tests that these were able to get around 3.4v right off the charger and were only producing 2.8 volts under a 2.0 ohm load when drained to a resting voltage of 3.7v.
So, you should expect about 5.75 watts with a trustfire flame 14500 right off the charger and about 2.9 watts when it is drained to 3.7v resting.
The above info is exactly why people buy the AW IMR 14500s. Examples of what I have handy right now: The AW IMR 14500 in my REO mini is currently at a resting 3.6v. Firing a 1.8 ohm atty, it is 3.3 load volts for 6 watts. Charged yesterday a fresh AW IMR 14500 resting at 4.17v, that battery produces 3.76 load volts with the same atty for 7.85 watts.
OK. C rating is the maximum continuous discharge specification that won't harm the battery. It isn't the maximum the battery can discharge. It's also determined by a full discharge - in the case of a 3.7v battery, that means discharging from ~4.2v to ~2.5v. Even though all manufacturers call it a "maximum c rating", it's more of an average than a maximum when the manufacturer tests their cells.
In the case of the trustfire flame 14500: I have load tested these batts. And to remind myself of my findings, I just did a couple of quick load tests of a couple of them I have here on my desk. Both came off the charger about a month or so ago and are reading 4.15v at rest.
With a 2.0 ohm load, one of them achieved 3.33v and the other one achieved 3.36v. I recall in my last tests that these were able to get around 3.4v right off the charger and were only producing 2.8 volts under a 2.0 ohm load when drained to a resting voltage of 3.7v.
So, you should expect about 5.75 watts with a trustfire flame 14500 right off the charger and about 2.9 watts when it is drained to 3.7v resting.
The above info is exactly why people buy the AW IMR 14500s. Examples of what I have handy right now: The AW IMR 14500 in my REO mini is currently at a resting 3.6v. Firing a 1.8 ohm atty, it is 3.3 load volts for 6 watts. Charged yesterday a fresh AW IMR 14500 resting at 4.17v, that battery produces 3.76 load volts with the same atty for 7.85 watts.
I won't even pretend I play an Electrical Engineer on TV.
But does having a Single Battery VVPV effect all this?
I understand, or think I do, the Basic concept of a of Getting more Output Voltage than a Single battery has. You trade amps for volts and then store the higher Voltage in a Capacitor.
How much does the "C" Rating play a role in a Single Battery VVPV?
But does having a Single Battery VVPV effect all this?
I understand, or think I do, the Basic concept of a of Getting more Output Voltage than a Single battery has. You trade amps for volts and then store the higher Voltage in a Capacitor.
How much does the "C" Rating play a role in a Single Battery VVPV?
If the battery can't keep up, the boost circuit can't produce. And, (I tried but probably failed to explain this above) the C rating isn't actually the max amount of discharge possible. It's the max amount of amp discharge over the discharge cycle that won't harm the battery. If you ask more from a battery than it can produce without damage, you can have shortened battery life cycle (likely) or you could even get it to a point where it has a hazardous thermal episode (less likely but bad things do happen sometimes).
A haven't found any graphs for Trustfire 14500's, but this test done on a midrange performer will get the point across.
Test of EagleTac 14500 750mAh (Black)
Look at the first graph at the 2.0a load line. (bottom line, light blueish). A 2ohm atty on a freshly charged battery should draw 2.1a delivering 8.8 watts. However, it almost immediately drops below 3.6v delivering only 6.5w.
With a high drain, or higher C rate, the voltage drop is considerably less. My results are inline with six's on the AW IMR 14500; 4.2v rest, ~3.8 under load. The down side to IMR is the capacity. And at some point an ICR will out perform the IMR. With a good ICR this might still be at a vapable voltage. With a midrange or poor performer it is most likely beyond a the cutoff for a satisfying vape.
Here in a few weeks I'm going to be playing with a 900mAh 15C round LiPolymer that is only slightly longer than a 14500 protected cell. Should do very well in a 2aa box with only a couple tenths dropout.
Test of EagleTac 14500 750mAh (Black)
Look at the first graph at the 2.0a load line. (bottom line, light blueish). A 2ohm atty on a freshly charged battery should draw 2.1a delivering 8.8 watts. However, it almost immediately drops below 3.6v delivering only 6.5w.
With a high drain, or higher C rate, the voltage drop is considerably less. My results are inline with six's on the AW IMR 14500; 4.2v rest, ~3.8 under load. The down side to IMR is the capacity. And at some point an ICR will out perform the IMR. With a good ICR this might still be at a vapable voltage. With a midrange or poor performer it is most likely beyond a the cutoff for a satisfying vape.
Here in a few weeks I'm going to be playing with a 900mAh 15C round LiPolymer that is only slightly longer than a 14500 protected cell. Should do very well in a 2aa box with only a couple tenths dropout.
That was an excellent question. I think I can best explain what's going on from a practical perspective.
In my experience, bigger, "high quality" batteries will put out more voltage under load than smaller batteries, or batteries from sources with suspect quality control, or both.
It has also been my experience that mods with no electrical regulation have zero ability to regulate power being delivered to the atomizer. Of course, this is really not a matter of experience or opinion, but rather a demonstration of fact.
Here is a video that shows the performance of several 18650 batteries from various sources. There was no electronic cigarette used in these under load measurements, which properly takes that variable out of the equation:
While this question was interesting form a theoretical standpoint, in practice it is effectively meaningless to vaping today. There was a day where this question had great implications to the vaping experience. That day has long passed.
Today, vapers have access to several affordable PVs that feature variable voltage, as well as units that offer variable wattage for a premium price and limited availability. Of course the high price and scarcity of variable wattage product is not long for this world.
In this day and age, buying any "premium" mod with no electronic circuitry to regulate the power flowing to the atomizer is absolute lunacy. This is not an opinion, but rather an objective fact to anyone save collectors who have an unlimited budget to buy worthless relics.
Lava tubes can be purchased for $30 and eGo Twists can be had for $20. Higher performance products are available for just a few dollars more.
Anyone who buys an unregulated mechanical mod for $100+...well, I guess P. T. Barnum said it best.
The Dark Ages of vaping are over. Stable, safe electrical performance can be had for a pittance.
Anyone still vaping with a mechanical mod is either undereducated, a Luddite, or a hopeless fanboy. Or some combination of the three.
Who cares? I don't know. Who doesn't care? Those who possess rational minds. Mechanical Mods: Worthless Relics for Luddites and Fanboys - Nivel Chip Update by VP Live on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
Are you vaping with a PV that does not have electronic power regulation?'
Objectively speaking, you're doing it wrong.
Or, simply put, you're a sucker.
I am very grateful for your reply. It makes me very happy. I do hope that you are being sincere, because if you are, you have bestowed upon me a great honor.
I wish I could do something to truly express my gratitude. While I think anything I would try to do to truly express my thanks would fall short, please accept as a small token of my appreciation your comment being permanently added to my ECF signature.
Thanks again. You truly made my day today.
I wish I could do something to truly express my gratitude. While I think anything I would try to do to truly express my thanks would fall short, please accept as a small token of my appreciation your comment being permanently added to my ECF signature.
Thanks again. You truly made my day today.
AW 18650 IMR batteries are said to be able to deliver 10 amps intermittently with no dangerous rise in internal heat levels. That kind of capacity is what you need for boost circuitry as well as the powering of low resistance coils. You get less vaping life from a charge, but boy do they deliver when there are demands to be met, as in long draws on a LR carto.
Lithium-ion batteries are slowly falling in preference to newer technologies such as the IMR batteries. Most of the boost mods these days recommend IMR. Li-ion doesn't like to be stressed and stress is the name of the game with modern VV devices and LR coils.
Add to that the failure modes of both and IMR wins every time. Li-ion turns into a 4th of July rocket with a boom at the end. IMR just gets hot during failure and doesn't even go poof if it's in a vented tube. It's kind of boring to watch an IMR failure on YouTube, but it's comforting to know that your ecig isn't going to take your hand off if it fails.
Lithium-ion batteries are slowly falling in preference to newer technologies such as the IMR batteries. Most of the boost mods these days recommend IMR. Li-ion doesn't like to be stressed and stress is the name of the game with modern VV devices and LR coils.
Add to that the failure modes of both and IMR wins every time. Li-ion turns into a 4th of July rocket with a boom at the end. IMR just gets hot during failure and doesn't even go poof if it's in a vented tube. It's kind of boring to watch an IMR failure on YouTube, but it's comforting to know that your ecig isn't going to take your hand off if it fails.
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Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not a Battery Expert.
But I learned a lot from this thread allthough some of it was beyond me.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...646-aw-vs-trustfire-18350-battery-battle.html
But I learned a lot from this thread allthough some of it was beyond me.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...646-aw-vs-trustfire-18350-battery-battle.html
Of course I'm being sincere. I really like the way, for what appears to be no other reason other than belittlement, you highlighted the OP's grammatical errors. Classy stuff!
Thanks for highlighting my admiration by including me in your signature. Is there any chance you could assist a poor Luddite like myself by directing me to the 'ignore user' function on this fantastic forum?
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=42520
Just helping out a fellow undereducated Luddite fanboy that seems perfectly capable of making decisions based on his personal preferences and own free will.
Just helping out a fellow undereducated Luddite fanboy that seems perfectly capable of making decisions based on his personal preferences and own free will.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=42520
Just helping out a fellow undereducated Luddite fanboy that seems perfectly capable of making decisions based on his personal preferences and own free will.
Too Funny Rader2146...
Hey before this thread gets Closed, I see that things are sometimes referred to as “Continuous”. Like Continuous Discharge.
When I hear this, I think of turning on a Flashlight and letting it run until the batteries are Drained.
Clearly this isn’t the way we vape. Or at least most of us don’t. Do 4 or 5 seconds of Discharge, like when taking a hit, and then a period of Rest change the dynamics of these Discharge Curves?
Yes, but only slightly. Recovery time allows for a little variance in the curve. I havent found any test that show a good side by side comparison at the same discharge rate, but these graphs from Super T share a striking resemblance.
This is the best question of all... and I wish I had an answer. All of the drain curve charts I've ever seen posted on candlepower, lighthound, ecf, or anywhere else are continuous from ~4.2 to ~2.5v drain. There are two dynamics in the difference between vaping and keeping a bulb lit that this just can't account for. One is just what you said: Periods of rest. The other is related and even more important: Temperature. Discharging continuously creates heat wherever resistance is present and all batteries have an internal resistance. It's impossible to account for those differences with a continuous discharge, and I've only seen a few guesses regarding whether or not the difference is at all significant.
I have never seen any sort of comprehensive battery review designed around vaping. If I had to guess, I would personally say the differences aren't going to be very significant, but I have absolutely no data to back that up. It's just my best guess.
I just remeber reading something once about Discharge Curves and how the Rest period effected them.
But the more I think about it, it was in a Boost / Buck VVPV thread and I can't remeber if the effect was on Internal Voltage or Ouput Voltage.
But the more I think about it, it was in a Boost / Buck VVPV thread and I can't remeber if the effect was on Internal Voltage or Ouput Voltage.
Like I posted before, someone like yourself who has a much better Understanding of what is going on might like to read this thread...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...6-aw-vs-trustfire-18350-battery-battle-2.html
Too much of it goes over my head to know if this is just Battery 101 or if it is Cutting Edge Stuff.
At least you were a jerk who was correct
LOL coz. ... coming from the guy who chose an unregulated triple-v over the regulated version? Has the leopard changed it's spots? I haven't been keeping up with your reviews for a few months. Are you a VV proponent now? If so, any chance that unregulated triple-v will make it to the classies?
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