Dry hits because of Ni200 wire?? I don’t get it.

[KurtVD]

I thought that I had become quite proficient at building my own coils and wicking, at least good enough that I don’t have to worry about dry hits and stuff like that…
Well, I got a new atomizer recently, and even though it is really easy to build on, I have had a lot of problems with dry hits. I’ve tried thinning the tails better, I’m pretty sure I don’t use too much cotton, it slides through easily, with just a little resistance. So yesterday, after having installed a new coil and wick for like the 8th time in 4 days, I decided to build a Ss136L coil instead of my usual Ni200. I think I have wicked it just like before, but lo and behold, no more dry hits. Is that pure coincidence, or is there something about Ni200 that makes dry hits occur easier? I’ve tried everything from very spaced coils to tighter ones (between 0.12 and 0.17 resistance).
Any ideas? My preferred juice just tastes better with Ni200…

I’m using a mod running Arctic Fox , and always with TC on, set to the type of wire I’m using.

 

[BillW50]

I will switch to building contact coils, hopefully that will solve it.

You mean you're going to switch to spaced coils, right? As spaced coils shouldn't get any hot spots if the wicking is right.

 

[KurtVD]

Don’t know if anyone is going to be reading this, but I ended up finding out what it was…: I got the dry hits because of hot spots, simple as that. Since I was told that you should never test fire a NI coil, I just built and installed them and hoped it was going to be ok.
I will switch to building contact coils, hopefully that will solve it.

 

[BillW50]

Here is an example.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

The arctic fox forum may provide a lot of info needed to make AF work it's best for TC.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Arctic Fox firmware will bring any compatible mod up to nearly the level, and quality, of any DNA mod running TC.

I have several DNA mods and several mods running Arctic Fox. Including Pico 75's running AF.

I don't get dry hits when running TC, ever. Don't get dry hits when running in simple wattage mode either.

Dry hits are normally caused by the wicking being too tight within the coil. You should feel resistance when moving a wick side-to-side within a coil.

If it is too tight in the coil you will very likely get dry hits. And, you don't want the wick to be too loose in a coil or you will end up with flooding.

If you are experiencing dry hits then use less wick. Coil material (Ni200, SS316L, etc.) does not matter.

If using rayon you will need to use approximately 1/3 more than you would with cotton. This is because rayon contracts. Cotton expands.

 

[BillW50]

The problem that the stupid stock, articfox firmware and DNA devices have is that they will sometimes (sometimes quite often) "forget" a coils cold resistance value even when 'locked' and then think there is a new coil leading to worse yet using a 'warm' resistance value as the base setting. You'll notice this where you'll suddenly get WAY MORE vapor and/or a dry hit.

I haven't seen DNA devices do this in years. Maybe an early firmware version did this. Anyway you can set the cold resistance to anything you want to. On a color DNA you can do it right on the mod with the right theme. PBusardo hates this ability, but I love it (we argue all the time about it). As I can move a hot coil from one mod to another without a problem (as long as you know what the cold resistance is). I believe ArcticFox allows you to do the same thing. It has been awhile since I fired up ArcticFox.

Dicodes and YiHe devices won't do this.

I can't comment on Dicodes, since I never used one. But Yihi uses PWM (pulse width modulation) in TC mode (you can see it on a scope). I'm not a big fan of PWM, but if that is all I had, I'd use it. As it is better than using nothing at all, right?

While I'll still use NI200 on devices that don't have custom TCR settings, my goto wire type in NiFE48. Not as soft as NI200 so its easier to work with. Less conductive so has higher resistance values leading to higher accuracy in the math for temperature regulation.

You can purchase tempered Ni200 which is really stiff wire (I've used it for a couple of years). I'm also one of the few who has no problems with soft Ni200 wire and I really enjoy building with it (takes very little effort to reshape it).

And less conductivity with a higher resistance doesn't give you higher accuracy. The one with the highest TCR does. Since the resistance changes the most with the slightish temperature change. Which happens to be Ni200. Titanium (T1) runs in at a close second place. Say you have a 0.10Ω Ni200 coil at room temperature. Now at vaping temperatures it doubles and then some in resistance. That is huge!

 

[BillW50]

KurtVD, you can build them as contact coils too. Then usually on a rod it is easier and stretch it like a spring. If you stretch them too far you can compress them back again (although they probably will never get close enough for being contact coils again). Just a little practice you'll be a pro. Stiffer wires are a bit harder, but they are still doable.

 

[GeorgeS]

Here, but I forgot when and which thread. I didn’t get a definitive yes/no answer, but one or two posters thought that it would be better to never heat it up that much, not even to test for hot spots.

QUOTE="GeorgeS, post: 23485982, member: 258194"]Greetings,

Ni200 has the best TCR of all wire types. Just about ANYTHING ought to be able to TCregulate it including the stock firmware of your eleaf device.

i see. But given that the resistance of Ni200 is very low, doesn’t that mean that it heats up quicker than a wire with high resistance? Which means that the mod must react quicker to prevent ‘over’heating (over the set temp), correct? So in this sense it would be true that Ni200 makes dry hits more likely (obviously only if there’s something wrong in the first place, like bad wicking), isn’t it?[/QUOTE]

Well err.... no.

NI200 has a very high TCR which means the resistance change while it heats up is greater than any other wire type. It is much easier to calculate the change in temperature with a high TCR.

Scientifically, what you want is BOTH high TCR AND resistance. However with NI200 it is fairly difficult to get high resistance values. You ether or both have to use very small gauge wire (28awg is the largest I'd ever use) and lots and lots of spaced windings (I've had coils with over +10 windings!).

Due to the fairly large resistance CHANGE from room temperature to typical temperatures we vape at, NI200 was the first TC supported wire type. TI was added to many mods within a few months after the first TC regulated mods came out followed by SS and mods that had user programmable TCR values. DNA mods were the first to have a "table" to define the nonlinear resistance change many wire types have over temperature.

While I'll dry fire a NI200 coil to see if anything 'glows' or there are any hot spots, I surely would not bother attempting to 'dry burn' a NI200 coil as the wire I use is so soft, attempting to get the wick out generally deforms or destroys the coil. I don't think I've ever made a NI200 coil glow.

g.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Of the wire types where dry burning is common NO coil should be dry burned beyond a "dull" orange glow. It does not take much power to accomplish that.

Dry burn a coil to a bright orange, or near red, glow and ya might as well toss the coil.

There are plenty of discussions, and a few decent YT videos, covering this. They are easily found.

 

[mimöschen]

Is the same true for ni90/80 ?
Since it is 90/80% nickel with 10/20% chromium and ni200 is just 100% nickel.

NiChrome is a lot less reactive than pure nickel, so there's no problem when dry burning, but as showmetwice said, keep the temperature as low as possible. A dull red glow should suffice. The same is true for SS316l btw.

The only type of wire you can dryburn without any problems is Kanthal, because it's the least reactive of all the 5 standard alloys.

 

[Seiggy]

For those who are having problems with NI200 annealed (soft) wire you could try to twist two strands of wire together. The twisting makes it more tempered (hard) and easier to wick. You may have to add a wrap or two to get the resistance a little higher. The benefit is a stiffer wire and the added twists for liquid to get trapped in. I haven't used NI200 for awhile since I switched to SS316L mesh for TC.

 

[mimöschen]

It's not about destroying a coil when dryburning. The integrity of the metal may still be intact, but if the temperature gets too high, the metal oxidizes on the surface. That oxidized layer will flake off, so you will inhale it.
Problem is that those oxides are highly toxic.
The only wiretype that does not form a toxic layer through heating is Kanthal.

 

[BillW50]

ROTFLMAO!!

The only TRUE portion of your statement is that YES it does not require much wattage to get a coil glowing.

It takes a few months to get a coil "gunked up" even with unflavored juice. This is fairly easy to notice as the vapor production drops off. Then comes the ritual of exposing the coil, removing the wick and then DRY BURNING (and YES very very bright red) the gunk off. Once all the gunk is gone (and the coil has returned to room temperature) rewick and reprime/flood the wick/coil and reassemble.

After all, it is just WIRE. Even 'heating wire' to be more specific. There is nothing wrong with letting it GLOW.

Frankly, I actually can't recall the last time I wound a coil.

Disclaimer: when it comes to NI200 I use 28awg and NEVER seem to get the wick out without destroying the coil, so have never dryburned NI200 coils. (IDK: high heat may make the coils harder or softer)
With TI coils if you get the coil hot enough a white residue (oxide) will form on the coil. The idea of getting this oxide in their lungs scared the paranoids (it can be simply and easily washed off) so they migrated to SS.

g.

ROTFLMAO!! First wire type I used was 28g Kanthal. And I noticed somewhere after about the third dry burning, you'll be vaping away and suddenly you will get an open coil. Examining the coil under a microscope, I saw lots of tiny fractures. Worse, looking inside of the cracks, there was rust forming.

Then I switched to Ni200. I never dry burned them. But I steamed cleaned things before, so I got this crazy idea to steam clean Ni200 coils. So I rewicked a dirty Ni200 coil and soaked the wicking in water. And I couldn't get the coil anywhere high enough to produce steam. So I used a 200 watt mod and crank it up to 200 watts and tried again. The temperature still wouldn't get to 212°F to produce steam. But the coil legs were glowing red hot. So I gave up on that idea. Ni200 coils clean up pretty nicely with just a brush anyway. And nickel is cheap to replace as well.

Yes pulsing titanium will form a white residue. Sure you can wash it off. But it still taste like crap afterwards. That is why many of us won't dry burn titanium.

I also noticed SS and Ni80 too tastes like crap after pulsing them. No amount of brushing and cleaning will get rid of it either. And not only do they taste bad to me, but I can smell it in the wire at room temperature. Am I just sensitive to nickel or something? Who knows. Today I use all of the common wire types.

So people can do what they want to do. But for me, pulsing all wire types just causes more problems than it is worth. Just use spaced coils, replace coils when it is time, and quit being cheap. It's no big deal.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Google much?

g.

Dumb.

Another member asked for help. Responding as you did is unacceptable and very ignorant.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I live very close to Germany (part of the year, at least), do you have an address where I could order some ?

Zivipf is located in Germany. They carry high quality wire of all types. I've ordered from them before as have others on ECF. They are a good company.

They have NiFe30, NiFe48 and NiFe52 wire. Zivipf.de

Good luck!

 

[KurtVD]

Zivipf is located in Germany. They carry high quality wire of all types. I've ordered from them before as have others on ECF. They are a good company.

They have NiFe30, NiFe48 and NiFe52 wire. Zivipf.de

Good luck!

Thank you !

 

[mimöschen]

It doesn't matter for how long you vape.
What matters in this case is knowledge in metallurgy, which in your case is obviously lacking.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I've been vaping since 2013. What about you?

That's amusing. Funny even.

Reducing this to measuring the length of ones stick.

Very immature.

Little boys do that, not adults.

Most adults know it's how they use the experience and knowledge they have learned as they apply it.

Grow up.

 

[mimöschen]

You should never get any dry hits in TC-mode. Seems like your mod isn't up to the task.