ECA do we want or need them

[trog100]

i think we need another poll.. simply because you have an opinion do you have the right to publicly express it as a simple statement..

personally i dont think you do have this right and anyone who thinks you do is living in a fools paradise..

now what i have just said is my "opinion" on the subject of so called "free speech" and the simple minded concept that its okay to spout off any kind of nonsense you like simply because its your "opinion"..

trog

 

[surbitonPete]

Well my 'opinion' is that anyone can spout 'any' opinion they like and it's up to me if I agree or disagree with it.

 

[Letzin Hale]

i think we need another poll.. simply because you have an opinion do you have the right to publicly express it as a simple statement..

personally i dont think you do have this right and anyone who thinks you do is living in a fools paradise..

now what i have just said is my "opinion" on the subject of so called "free speech" and the simple minded concept that its okay to spout off any kind of nonsense you like simply because its your "opinion"..

trog

I think you summed up free speech perfectly there, although I'm not sure whether that was the intention? One man's belief is another man's nonsense and we can all choose to disagree.
Everyone does indeed have the right to express their opinion publicly, that is a fact, although it might be subject to legal restraints, but I do accept that you think we should not have that right, that is your opinion.
Alan.

 

[trog100]

I think you summed up free speech perfectly there, although I'm not sure whether that was the intention? One man's belief is another man's nonsense and we can all choose to disagree.
Everyone does indeed have the right to express their opinion publicly, that is a fact, although it might be subject to legal restraints, but I do accept that you think we should not have that right, that is your opinion.
Alan.

yes i think we would be better off not hearing or reading the opinions of fruit loops..

i think a person has a simple duty.. make sure you have reasonable grounds for thinking your opinion to be a valid one before publicly expressing it..

if in doubt make sure you express that doubt..

i might say everyone has a right to an oppion but i dont think they have an automatic right to express it publicly just for the fun of doing it.. as happens here all too often....

and defamatory statements made without proof or consequence should not be justified under the principle of "free speech" or its so and sos opinion therefore he/she is allowed to publicly express it

people forget that what they write here can be read and might influence lots of people.. so a duty of care has to exist.. which by definition means the concept of free speech just like the concept of freedom is a false one..

One man's belief is another man's nonsense and we can all choose to disagree.

so by definition its all "nonsense"...

trog

 

[MonkeyMonk]

The ECA and the members of the ECA have my highest regard and support.

 

[webtaxman]

So there you have it, 5,328 words and an hour and a half of my time when I should be sleeping (I work graveyard) just to show you all how I and others feel about the ECA. I feel that strongly about showing you all what a joke they are that I'm sacrificing sleep in the hopes that one less sucker will fall for their money-grabbing scam. Have a great day and thanks for your patience in reading this all, once you piece everything together logically, your wallet will thank you.

Wow! I'm guilty of voting before considering the issue at hand. Can I change my vote?

I am new here, and I have only read a few posts from Kate, but it appears KATE has the integrity and credibility to lead and represent everyone's interests. The fact that Kate opposes the ECA (entirely or partially) speaks volumes to me.

I was also taken aback a few weeks ago when the ECA said WE ALL must contact our Congressman and Reps because of some super event about to take place. It was kept secret, and I never went back to find out if they even revealed the big secret.

1) Obtaining 501(c)(3) status ain't all that hard. Trust me.

2) I am a member of a few "associations," most of which you may know, and the membership fee? 50 bucks. Annually.

3) Must go find ECA's mission statement.

 

[Boston George]

The ECA and the members of the ECA have my highest regard and support.

This is why I keep standing up for the ECA. Generally I feel that people support the ECA, its just a few that have taken up this Crusade against it.

MonkeyMonk you have my sincere thanks for voicing your support.

I am not against open discussion, nor even direct opposition. But the baseless claims against the ECA and its intent need to stop.

I have said it before and I will say it again: what other organization is actually working on lobbyists and lawyers to defend e-cigs?

What do you think the endorsement of Matt Salmon is worth? He has real respect within the circles which we need to influence.

You bemoan the actions of the FDA and proclaim that you will continue to vape despite whatever the government does. Instead of throwing up their hands and giving in the ECA is trying, against extreme odds, to fight for the cause. Do they gain from keeping e-cigs legal, sure, but is that wrong?


I suggest that if you care about e-cigs you stop whining in a internet forum and actually do something for the cause. IF you dont like the ECA fine, dont support them. But I would challenge you to find a group that has done more for the cause.


vape on,
-BG

 

[Lika]

Here you go. It's on their home page...

Our Mission: The Electronic Cigarette Association (ECA) is an association of private sector companies engaged in electronic cigarette technologies. Member companies are involved in all sectors of the creation and promotion of electronic cigarettes. ECA’s mission is to provide the tools and information necessary for policy-makers, opinion leaders, media, and private sector companies worldwide to make informed decisions about the management and use of electronic cigarette technologies, particularly the most recent advances and applications. The association was founded to institute and promote industry-wide standards and a code of conduct, work to maintain sound professional practices, educate the public and policy-makers on the industry’s activities and potential, and ensure the ethical use of electronic cigarette technologies.

 

[webtaxman]

Diplomacy is a very valuable asset.

And COMPROMISE is not a dirty word.

 

[webtaxman]

Having read a couple of posts accusing Babachoo of attacking the ECA I had to read his/her entire postings on this thread. There was I almost joining the queue to jump on the 'hit 'em with a big stick bandwagon' when I realised that Babachoo was not attacking the ECA but was in fact asking some very pertinent questions without resorting to insults, mild or otherwise. I found the 'I wish you would just go away' comment a little sad as it is such a poor form of reply to what was presented as an incisive and eloquent post. I don't think the FDA and other detractors would take much notice if you told them to go away. What Babachoo, Kate, Lika, myself and others have all done is to ask very relevant & searching questions and point out various holes, pitfalls, inconsistencies and general lack of professionalism that has been the Achilles Heel of the ECA so far. Yes we would like to see an organisation that furthers the cause, but one that is seen as credible, capable and consumer orientated rather than the slipshod presentation we have seen in some of its dealings and communications.
It would have been more prudent for instance to wait just a little while in order to formulate a clear, consistent charter that could be presented as a finished article rather than rush out an announcement that the ECA is here to save us all so join up quick but with not enough structure to the organisation and with various people appearing to speak on their behalf.
Now, the ECA has to work damned hard to prove itself and convince not just the detractors but even some of the people who should and could have been on their side from day one. Having read as much as I could find on their website I am now reassured that the ECA IS NOT a consumer orientated association and is a gathering of manufacturers/suppliers who are willing to fork out big bucks every month to be a member. I have no argument with that.


Quote from the ECA website with my comments in red:

The Electronic Cigarette Association (ECA) is an association of private sector companies engaged in electronic cigarette technologies.

The Electronic Cigarette Association (ECA) is a 501(c)(6), a not-for-profit trade organization.
The ECA Board of Directors and Officers are: Matt Salmon - President, Jack Leadbeater - Chair, James Watt - Vice Chair, Chad Green - Treasurer, Antoinette Lanza, Nick Bird, and Rob Winslow.
The ECA has a minimum application fee of $500 USD. If your organization can give more for the good of the entire industry, we encourage you to do so. Below are the ECA Membership levels and the associated monthly dues:

1. Basic Membership: $300 USD per month
2. Bronze Membership: $800 USD per month
3. Silver Membership: $1,500 USD per month
4. Gold Membership: $3,000 USD per month
5. Platinum Membership: $5,000+ USD per month
6. Founding Membership: $400+ USD per month (this membership level must be approved by the ECA Board of Directors and is subject to ECA formation participation)

What's the difference between Basic/Gold/Platinum/Founding apart from 4500+ bucks?!

Something in my head is telling me that 5000 dollars a month would go a long way toward funding the necessary trials/testing/compliancy etc to get a product licensed!! No mention seems to have been made about that possibility?

If you own and operate a very small or new business within the electronic cigarette industry and can not afford even the Basic Membership level at this time, please contact Chad Green about obtaining a personalized payment schedule.
What if someone can't afford to join as they are a very small outfit making a wage and nothing else?
What if manufacturers and suppliers choose not to join? Will they be blacklisted?

The benefits of becoming an ECA Member of a certain level will include a specific Seal that can be used on the Member’s website and marketing materials as well as other benefits to be determined at a later date.
Hands up all those who will insist on seeing a seal before making a purchase.

These funds, along with any donations received, will be used for these purposes:
1) Engaging Policy Impact Communications (Policy Impact) to lobby Congress on behalf of the ECA.
What kind of guarantee do PIC offer, or is it just a case of you pays your money and takes your chance?

2) Engaging Policy Impact Communications to perform the administrative duties necessary to keep the ECA in good standing with the IRS and other government agencies.
I was wondering why an accountant wouldn't suffice to keep the IRS happy as surely the only requirement is that the ECA is shown to have not made a profit in any one year. So, if there is money left over, what happens to it?

3) Engaging a media relations firm to battle misinformation being presented by e-cigarette opponents and to expand the reach of electronic cigarettes so all smokers have the freedom to choose an alternative.
The most effective advertising in this industry has been word of mouth and personal recommendation; 'I tried my friend's, brother's, colleague's etc and it was amazing'. This is also the way to combat misinformation as if it is done via 'media relations' it inevitably comes across as just 2 sides having an argument, just like party political broadcasts.

4) Implement standards to ensure e-cigarette suppliers and distributors meet certain requirements.
Who is going to set those standards and requirements and more pertinently, who is going to police them?
Shouldn't the standards have already been agreed upon so that prospective members know what is expected of them, or do they have to join and then hope that they can afford to come up to scratch?

5) Implement standards to ensure the manufacturing of the products meet certain requirements.
I'm sure that they're quaking in their boots in Shenzhen! Sorry for the sarcasm but they will not give a toss in China about the ECA and that's a fact.

No board members are taking a salary from the ECA. Matt Salmon is employed by Policy Impact Communications and was selected as the ECA President so he can effectively lobby on our behalf. No one ECA member will directly benefit more than any other member. This is about helping our industry, not one company.
Well at least they seem true to their word as I have not seen any reference to the Association representing or campaigning for the rights of consumers, only the industry (apart from: We strive to establish an association with other major producers, marketers, vendors and consumers in the industry) which again prompts the question, why should ordinary consumers donate to a Trade Association?
Also, should the ECA be required to subscribe to the ECF as a supplier with the same restrictions and priveliges that apply to other suppliers and who is the official spokeperson for the ECA?

Alan.

Wow again! Thanks Alan from keeping me from having to find their mission statement.

My biggest issue is the membership fees, and what consideration is given in return. Like I said, many prominent "associations," (not large ones, but many one have heard of) have ANNUAL membership dues. Again, $50-$150 a year.

One particular association takes on attorney's, and their respective State Bars. This association is multitudes larger than the ECA.

 

[webtaxman]

Babachoo, some of us have been trying to work on a grassroots organisation that represents and is run by consumers as a voluntary organisation, you might want to have a look - Right to Vape (link in my sig). The group is still small and not very active but it's a start and we will hopefully be able to represent ourselves in an effective way at some point.

I think the problem at the moment for some folk seems to be the sense of urgency in the States. Rather than put time and energy into organising ourselves it can be easier for some people to throw money at the problem hoping that will be an answer.

Some pioneers with strong personalities and some charisma could do a lot for us at Right to Vape.

My hope is that consumers will unite and join traders to represent us all. Co-operation is key here.

I understand most of the concerns you have raised about the ECA but maybe what we should try to do is work with what we have rather than rejecting it for not being perfect.

Just joined RtV, and please note Kate that I am working on becoming a pioneer with strong personalities and some charisma. . Some how these traits have eluded me in the past

 

[scintar]

I have left the ECA an very small donation just to see what would happen. I support anyone who is tring to help our cause.
I have a problem tho, It has been over a week since I have left a donation and i have not even received a thank you or go **** yourself or nothing.
I would think that anyone who have received a donation would have at least the courtesy to reply back to the pay-pal email address with at least a THANK YOU for your support. ?????

8-o

 

[Kate]

... it appears KATE has the integrity and credibility to lead and represent everyone's interests. ...

Thanks very much for your confidence in me but really I'm not a reliable leader and I do get things wrong or out of perspective too often. Use my posts as points of reference if you want but most of the time I haven't a clue what I think myself.

Just joined RtV, and please note Kate that I am working on becoming a pioneer with strong personalities and some charisma. . Some how these traits have eluded me in the past

That's great, see you over there

 

[Lika]

This is waaaaay off topic but I'm missing the smoking nun, Kate.

 

[Kate]

Awww, please will you tell me why over here Lika - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/outside/15830-do-you-like-my-new-avatar-3.html#post304472

Thanks.

 

[stevejo]

So, I've refrained for a while from posting on this, however the discussion has motivated me to say a few things.

I must first agree with the previous posters in that $300 a month is ridiculous. A base membership to the multitude of consulting organizations I belong to runs anywhere from $50 to $500 per year. Three hundred dollars per month is ridiculous. You are effectively cutting out the smaller merchants on this. There is no 'mom and pop' style smoke shop that is going to pay $300 per month or more to display your nifty little logo.

I do some local sales (no internet presence yet, just trade shows and word of mouth sales). I would love to be associated with an organization such as this, as I agree with 90% of the positions of the ECA. This is definitely an organization that the industry needs, as I strongly feel if we don't regulate ourselves respectably, someone else will and we will not like it.

However, at the current membership levels, just an ECA membership would be the highest fixed overhead that I had, which would be superceded only by establishing a brick-and-mortar retail location.

The website that we have in the works is going to end up costing us in the neighborhood of $50 per month. That's a full e-comm site, design, hosting, merchant processing, etc etc. I expect to average around $10k/month in website sales once we launch. This is a researched market number, not something I just pulled from my .....

I don't need SIX websites to effectively advertise an be in business. But that's what the ECA membership would cost me. And it sure wouldnt get me an extra $10K in sales.

The booths I rent at trade shows two weekends per month cost me $100 for three days. And they give me tables, outlets, etc. I generate probably $1500 in sales every two-day show I attend.

There would be no feasible reason for me to get three seperate booths at each show, however that is what an ECA membership would cost me. And it sure wouldnt generate me an additional $1500 in sales.

I could go on and on, however the point remains the same. You folks are basically charging $300 or more (remember, this is the basic basic membership) for your cool little logo.

Yes, I understand that lobbying costs money. I understand that accountants and staff cost money. We (suppliers) all run businesses and get that. For those suppliers that are running $30K a month in sales, with a large internet presence, a full staff, a warehouse of products, this is a great opportunity to get your name out there and a reasonable expense.

However, for the small distributor, trade show guys, or small website etailers, this is an absolutely ridiculous sum. Especially considering the sometimes tiny margins we live on, this is just way too much to add to the monthly overhead.

Don't get me wrong, I sent in my $50 donation to the ECA.

I truly support their cause, their principles, and their mission. However, the cost of admission to this elite group of people is too high for this small business owner.

Someday guys, I hope that you realize that even the little guy who can maybe only toss in $20 a month is still important. You are losing out on so much income by starting your memberships so high.

I can tell you personally, for a $50/month membership (even if you want to stick my name at the absolute bottom of the list) I would be glad to support you. I refuse, however, to run my business into the ground by doubling my fixed expenses for a cool logo to add to my bus cards, website, or whatever else. Sorry.

-- Steve

 

[Lika]

If it's the "seal" anyone is after, the ECA doesn't have any problem with putting this on websites, supplier or otherwise.

I also doubt they would have any objections to placing the entire image on the backside of business cards. All without a single donation or monthly dues. IMO, this is the ECA's way of showing that any supplier can support the association even if they can't afford the monthly dues - Knock yourselves out

 

[nycsublimegirl]

It also clearly states on the membership page if you are a start up or small business that can not afford membership to call and arrangements can be made to work with you. The ECA does not want to turn anyone away why would we???

First people complain we are out gunned in the money department.. then they complain we are asking for too much money from our members? which is it?

 

[stevejo]

It also clearly states on the membership page if you are a start up or small business that can not afford membership to call and arrangements can be made to work with you. The ECA does not want to turn anyone away why would we???

First people complain we are out gunned in the money department.. then they complain we are asking for too much money from our members? which is it?

I missed that on the website somewhere. Also, I don't mean to come across as saying that without the $300 a month I would not support the ECA. I voted int his poll that I _do_ believe the association is a good thing, and I do support it and spread the word as much as I can locally with my customers.

I just think that the ECA turns a few people off (regardless of whether they mean to or not) by having the high-priced membership posted. Why not, instead of a "contact us if you cant afford it" statement, have a membership level in the range of most other trade associations.

I have never ever doubted that the ECA can and will make use of every dollar recieved, and unlike some others here on ECF, I believe that the ECA will be a very pivotal part of our fight to maintain our wonderful products here in the states.

I just think it sucks for someone like me to log onto the ECA site and see that we have to spend that kind of cash to support our cause through you. I have and will continue to be very active on a local grassroots level, writing our representation and talking with the public at large about maintaining our right to vape.

I understand that we don't have to pony up that much cash, but honestly this message:

If you own and operate a very small or new business within the electronic cigarette industry and can not afford even the Basic Membership level at this time, please contact Chad Green about obtaining a personalized payment schedule.

seems more like "we can stretch your payments out if need be" than "we can make it more affordable for you" -- if you see the difference there.

Like I said, no beef with the ECA, I agree with what you are trying to do, I just know there are a lot of smaller businessess that would gladly do a smaller fee if it was more blatantly advertised.

to all who have worked so hard getting this up and going, in the grand scheme of things I realize that this is just a little knitpick.

--Steve

 

[stevejo]

If it's the "seal" anyone is after, the ECA doesn't have any problem with putting this on websites, supplier or otherwise.

I also doubt they would have any objections to placing the entire image on the backside of business cards. All without a single donation or monthly dues. IMO, this is the ECA's way of showing that any supplier can support the association even if they can't afford the monthly dues - Knock yourselves out

Also, the page states:

Please enclose a check for the $500 USD initial application fee and mail it with your application. If you can give more, please do. Once received, your application will be reviewed. If accepted, you will be notified and directed to send in your first month’s due. You will also be given a link and a password to obtain the ECA Seal to display on your website.

So we need that link and an approved app to display the logo? Or not? I would love to have the logo on my biz cards to spread the word, but again, the $500 fee is a weeks worth of inventory for me. Not .....ing, just curious.

Thanks
--Steve