ECA do we want or need them

[Angela]

I have stayed well out of all of this back-and-forth, but there is just one thing I would like to say.

I appreciate what I have ben previously told that the ECA must focus on the US at the moment due to the current situation, however, being from the UK, I do not feel that the ECA is in any way even trying represent itself as a world-wide organisation (hell, even the logo shows the globe, but actually only depicts America - which gave me a giggle). As a result of this, I do not feel as if I really have any right to comment on anything the ECA says / does, etc.

Notwithstanding that, the point I wanted to make is this: when I joined ECF a couple of months ago, so many people were complaining in so many posts on so many threads that it wasn't their job to try and ensure that these things were kept legal and that the suppliers should be getting off their backsides and working together to try and do something. They are the ones making the money and so they are the ones who should be paying through the nose to get something done.

Well, guess what? The suppliers listened to the voices of their customers. They have banded together, and they are putting their money where their mouths are, and in return theyv are receiving more abuse/keyboard aggression!

Don't get me wrong, I think that the ECA has a long way to go and that pertinent questions should be asked, but, these are people who are doing something they have never done before. The ECA is still in it infancy and the people in it are finding their footing. Yes, they are going to have to learn fast, and yes, people should be raising questions, but outright criticism without any positive suggestions isn't going to help anyone in the end, IMHO.

 

[lvlninety9]

Nycsub I can understand your arguments. And I appreciate your explanations. They are welcomed. But still it's the appearance of the ECA that bothers me. As I've stated before the ECA seems like it's trying for the business aspect and not for the consumers when it should be for both. I do respect what the organization is doing, I just feel that they should fight for the consumers as well and right now it just doesn't look like that. Membership according to the site is limited to business only and doesn't allow for the average consumer to be a part of it. Therein lies my arguments with the ECA,

 

[surbitonPete]

I like that comment Angela.

 

[Angela]

Thanks, Pete.

 

[lvlninety9]

Angela you made a great comment. But here is the issue at hand. The ECA currently from appearances and from various posts are looking for financial support from everyone and yet they only allow business' to become members. It is like you said how can you be an advocate for someone or something and exclude the consumer who are just as much interested in this subject as suppliers? My issue with the ECA is that they exclude consumers from their membership roster and yet ask us for money. There is money out there to be had in forms of govenrment grants to help with non-profit organizations. Yes there really are, I have done the research myself as I am currently contemplating starting an organization for consumers everywhere. Not just in the United States but everywhere. And no I will not be asking for donations. I will in turn seek government grants and assistance that are in place for just such reasons. The ECA says that they seek to help keep e-cigarettes legal, but they ignore the common consumer and ask for their money at the same time. As for the simple questions that are being asked I see no reason why they can not be answered. Even a simple question asking the ECA to simply post a link that shows that they are a not-for-profit organization has proved to be difficult for them.
In this day and age of consumer fraud and incidents such as Worldcom it's every individuals right to question who they are giving their money to. If you are unsure of what exactly Worldcom is, you can google it and find out that Worldcom was one of the biggest cases of corporate fraud. The ECA is a corporation and should be scrutinized.

 

[surbitonPete]

lvininety9 you also make a very good point......as you say every corporation should be scrutinized.

 

[Angela]

Angela you made a great comment. But here is the issue at hand. The ECA currently from appearances and from various posts are looking for financial support from everyone and yet they only allow business' to become members. It is like you said how can you be an advocate for someone or something and exclude the consumer who are just as much interested in this subject as suppliers? My issue with the ECA is that they exclude consumers from their membership roster and yet ask us for money. There is money out there to be had in forms of govenrment grants to help with non-profit organizations. Yes there really are, I have done the research myself as I am currently contemplating starting an organization for consumers everywhere. Not just in the United States but everywhere. And no I will not be asking for donations. I will in turn seek government grants and assistance that are in place for just such reasons. The ECA says that they seek to help keep e-cigarettes legal, but they ignore the common consumer and ask for their money at the same time. As for the simple questions that are being asked I see no reason why they can not be answered. Even a simple question asking the ECA to simply post a link that shows that they are a not-for-profit organization has proved to be difficult for them.
In this day and age of consumer fraud and incidents such as Worldcom it's every individuals right to question who they are giving their money to. If you are unsure of what exactly Worldcom is, you can google it and find out that Worldcom was one of the biggest cases of corporate fraud. The ECA is a corporation and should be scrutinized.

1. They are a trade organisation, hence no consumer membership.
2. They are trying to fight a campaign which is going to be very costly. The more money they have in the arena in which they are going to have to fight, the better equipt they will be (hopefully)
3. They are asking for donations - not demanding them

All of the above is pretty much out of the area that I was going to talk about and I don't want to get drawn into a debate over them (only incidental as far as I am concerned), but this last point was the crux of my last post:

4. If you have a positive suggestion to make rather than just criticising what is being done, I am sure that they will listen and learn. eg, you have mentioned that you have knowledge about grants, etc. Why not contact someone at ECA and point them in the right direction? Ask if it's something they have looked into.

(BTW - I wasn't really aiming my original comments at you lvlninety9, as you have, IMO, stated your concerns civilly, so I am sorry for using your above post as an example of what I am talking about)

 

[lvlninety9]

I appreciate your comments. It's nice to know that someone isn't taking something as being literally directed towards them. I just feel like this is a place that will allow for us to discuss the subject of the ECA and some concerns that we all have. And so far I think this post while in some areas seem almost violent, is answering a lot of questions. As to the research that I conducted on the grants as such I honestly feel that if the organization is doing just what they say they are then they should already know about these grants and if they are trying to get those grants inform the rest of us. I also understand that they are merely asking for donations, but as I stated before it seems like they are just asking for us to help fund them. I have no qualms about the ECA and I truly do support the effort that they are making, I just feel that the consumers need more of a way to support them other then by handing over our hard earned money. We already give them our money in a sense that we buy their products, but to some, like myself, who would like to be a part of any attempt to help our community I feel like I'm being purposely left out unless I have my own business or am willing to hand over my money. I'm currently disabled with a back injury and do not have the means to donate anything. Hence my comment about possibly starting up a non-profit organization for consumers worldwide and not just in the United States. I'm doing a lot of research into accomplishing this goal and hope to possibly have some of the community here join. And to make this point well known, I will not be asking for donations or membership fees. I will be seeking grants and work with other organizations who believe in our cause. Maybe I'm just dreaming at the moment but it is keeping my mind busy at the moment. Hey maybe you can be the first member, lol. We can make the Electronic Cigarette Integration Group.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

We would love to fight for every aspect/part/business/consumer involved in the cause, but we are not even a month old. We simply have to pick our strongest agenda and run with it at the moment. That's not to say that we will not be able to soon or down the road incorporate many more people and aspects.

Most non-profits have time to grow and evolve and were started with way more lead time. The issues at hand have forced us to move this quickly and yes are feet are trying to catch up...and sometimes causing us to stumble.

Grants are great but time is of the essence, considering the lead time to obtain them and the uncertainty of receiving one right now we are concentrating on supporting ourselves and have policy impact to pursue those avenues.

I will look into creating a volunteer list to put on the site. As of now the best way to donate time or support if you cannot afford money or not comfortable donating is to stay vigilant in contacting your government officials and tell them your thoughts/experience with the e-cig.

 

[lvlninety9]

I completely understand your point and while I might have my issues with the ECA I'm not above saying that I do not support the effort that you guys are putting forth. If you look back at my posts, it is simply me stating that the appearance of the ECA is something that looks somewhat suspicious to some of the general public. If you read my last post I am currently looking into starting up an organization for consumers and such I am willing to work with any and all in our efforts to keep e-cigarettes available to not just those of us in the United States, but in other areas such as Australia where they are deemed illegal. I'm not sure how this will be accomplished, but it is something that I certainly will be looking into. As I stated at the moment I have so much time on my hands that my brain is working a mile a minute.

 

[Angela]

lvlninety9 - you might be a prime candidate to help RTV. Have you visited their site?

I am not a member myself, but I believe that RTV and ECA are hoping to have on-going dialogue / co-operation between the organisations.

I'm currently disabled with a back injury

SNAP!

 

[nitewriter]

lvlninety9, if you're interested in a consumer-based organization, you might be interested in Right To Vape - Index

 

[nitewriter]

lol Angela, great minds think alike!

 

[Angela]

lol Angela, great minds think alike!

LOL.... I seem to be playing 'snap' a lot tonight!

 

[lvlninety9]

I've looked into RtV yes. My problem is my brain runs a mile a minute. I'm always working on angles to get things accomplished while giving the appearance that it's not really happening. Some people are actually afraid to talk to me because of this habit of mine. What's funny is a lot of people I know say that I should have become a politician because I have a way of talking to people. I don't see it, but they say it's there. One thing that I have for myself is that I can be a very convincing person and I can pretty much talk my way through a lot of situations even if I have no idea what I'm talking about. I will take a look into RtV and maybe start up a sister group to coincide with them. Or even join them outright. Depends on my situation and my mood really.

 

[lordmage]

the ECA may or may not actuall help in the end FDA and such will always do what they want regardless of what is said to them... but should they actually do some good things for us then so be it just dont let it go to your heads.

 

[Vape]

the ECA may or may not actuall help in the end FDA and such will always do what they want regardless of what is said to them... but should they actually do some good things for us then so be it just dont let it go to your heads.

Agree

I also think the skepticism from people on the forum about the ECA is warranted.

If the ECA is a trade association, it is working in the best interest of it's members (suppliers) by definition, not the consumer.

It is odd that a true trade association would solicit donations from consumers on a public forum, please correct me if this is not out of the norm for an trade association to do.

As a consumer I can support the ECA, by buying goods from active members who prominently display the ECA "seal" or whatever. Understanding that they will most probably have a higher price than the "other guy" due to the fact they have dues to the association and standards or regulations to meet in order to be a member. Displaying that they are an ECA member lets the consumer know it is "money well spent" because it is a "safe" product and meets the associations standards and regulations.

 

[JustJulie]

This is an interesting--and important--discussion.

I agree that the ECA is primarily an organization designed to represent the interests of businesses, not consumers. But truthfully, that doesn't bother me. The interests of the consumers and businesses are not totally aligned, and if the ECA were to try to represent both consumers and businesses in all respects, it'd be a joke.

However, while I do not believe that consumer and business interests are totally aligned in all respects, I do believe that in terms of the "big fight," our interests coincide. As others have said, if e-cigs are banned, then all other issues pretty much become moot.

So for now, ECA has my full support. I feel confident that it is focused on the "big fight," and it needs all the help it can get. Once we win that battle, ECA will no doubt focus on other issues, issues where consumers and businesses are not necessarily in complete harmony, and that will be a whole other thing entirely.

And Angela is quite correct that there has been a lot of criticism directed towards businesses for not having done their part to pave the way for e-cigs to be accepted by regulatory authorities. Better late than never. And as I look at this from a totally selfish perspective, it's definitely in my best interests for the ECA to succeeed. Hence, ECA has my support at this point.

As for the criticisms about the not-for-profit status, I'm not going to give a legal lecture (do I hear more than a few sighs of relief?), but ECA is a not-for-profit organization--its income is generally not taxable. However, contributions to it by non-businesses are not deductible. I doubt ECA could have filed as a 501(c)(3) because clearly one of the things ECA needs to do is get down and dirty with trying to affect legislation and lobbying. Those kinds of activities are generally not available to 501(c)(3) organizations.

The fact that I can't deduct my contributions, well, I can live with that. There are plenty of things I support which don't carry a tax deduction.

Do I "trust" the ECA? Sure--to an extent. It's in the best interests of ECA's members (businesses) to make sure that e-smoking remains legal and accessible. I completely trust them on that one. As for all the other stuff, maybe . . . maybe not.

Yeah, the business members are out to make a buck. So what? It's in my best interests for them to continue to make a buck. I mean, if there's no profit in e-cigs, then there's no incentive for anyone to provide them, and then I'm flat out of luck.

 

[stevejo]

Sorry for the ressurection of this thread, but I feel that some peple are taking this all the wrong way.

From a consumer level, we dont really 'need' the ECA. Before you flame, let me explain:

As a consumer, I can buy my ecig products from China. Or the UK. Or wherever else. I can imagine that regardless of ban status, nine out of ten supply orders that I make will get through customs when the China suppliers learn to mark them as 'gifts'.

As a supplier, I have a harder time when I purchase a few hundred kits for importation. This is where the ECA comes in, fighting for the right to import. With every other shipment being lost to customs, I can hardly afford to import things to sell, let alone compete with China suppliers who have only the expense of in-country shipping to add onto the raw cost of the products. Anyone, regardless of who you are, who is fighting for the right to vape, is fighting more for the suppleirs than the consumers.

Now as a consumer, if you want fast shipping, US-based customer service, and the myriad of other things that prompt you to buy from a US supplier now vs a China supplier, then fight on!

The people who come on here and accuse the ECA of being biased towards suppliers, you are right. Suppliers have way more to lose (their livelihood) than the average consumer (who would lose a few days of shipping time, maybe an hour of sleep to stay up late and chat with a China supplier, etc). The average supplier probably also has motivation to spend a larger amount of resources fighting this than the average consumer. Consumers have jobs and lives that take up a maority of their days, suppliers jobs are e-cigs, so there will be more time and probably more cash (whether we like it or not, we are fighting against big tobacco and big pharma's pocketbooks on this one) than the average consumer.

Now I realize there are exceptions to both sides of this, hence why I state 'average' consumer and 'average' supplier.

Hope this helps some who are concerned that the ECA is a 'supplier' organization understand a tish better.

--Steve

 

[Kate]

I've just noticed that this thread has been moved to the ECA private forum where they can moderate, lock and delete at will.

Are we not allowed to talk about them without them being in control?