Eca, why?

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Mac

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Jun 5, 2009
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All up in your grill..
I agree that kristin has some good points. I like her spirit too :)
I just don't see the argument that if we concede that flavors are bad then it makes everything all right. I think if we give an inch, a yard will be asked.
The argument will then be 'well, you concede that flavors are bad but that doesn't change the fact that second hand vapor is also bad. ESPECIALLY in the presence of minors'. Back to square one, on the defensive but without flavors.
It's just my opinion Mac that you have to stand your ground against the likes of ASH and Co. Especially when you know that their opinion is spurious and argumentitive.
ah yes. "It's for the children" the last ditch argument of the desperate. Now that I agree is not a point to concede on. In fact I don't think the points we should concede on (they shouldn't be legal to sell to minors, we need more testing etc) would be anything any of us who are sane have ever contested.
 

JoeMcPlumber

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Dec 7, 2009
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If you choose to risk my ability to have my ecig, in order to use the ecig to fight your cause of changing the government or making some kind of statement, then I'm not your friend.
Fair enough i suppose.

I will defer, for the time, to your much more comprehensive knowledge
in regards to who we are up against.
I have read and forwarded many of your writings
and i am grateful for your gift of articulation
to help me where i'm notso good at articulating.

My quarrel isn't with you.
The whole point of this thread is i perceive the debate
to be far too lopsided,
and i don't want to lose my e-cigs to timidity and fear
any more than you want to lose them owing to confrontational tactics.
Nor do i want to be forced to buy FDA approved cartridges
at ten times the price and half the potency
because our leaders followed the path of appeasement.

All i was saying is that the debate is lopsided, as you point out,
on the side of people who can make whatever sorts of outrageous claims they please,
and meanwhile the ECA is so frightened to make any "claims" at all
that they don't appear to have a cogent argument for the product.
I think there are claims that we can make
with sincerity and integrity
without jeopardizing our position.

In other words i just feel like we're being knocked back on our heels
off-balance,
our foes are aggressive and assertive but our representatives are not.

And yeah, amongst the claims i would at least *try* to make
is that the government has no jurisdiction here unless they prove they do.
Aren't we waiting on a court case over that very point?
I would also attempt to shft the premises of the debate
and at least try to put the burden of proof back on the er... allegators?
That "due process" thing.

I'm sorry you keep getting exposed to idealistic libertarian rants,
but it sorta goes with the territory.
For some of us this is just one more dmn thing,
and for others it might be very near the last straw.

peace
-joe
 

PlanetScribbles

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ah yes. "It's for the children" the last ditch argument of the desperate. Now that I agree is not a point to concede on. In fact I don't think the points we should concede on (they shouldn't be legal to sell to minors, we need more testing etc) would be anything any of us who are sane have ever contested.

Exactly. The laws are already in place to stop minors buying certain products. I also agree that they should be regulated. The last thing I want to be vaping is some rogue poisonous eliquid.
I even agree that we should not be expecting to vape wherever we feel like it ie. supermarkets, hospitals, etc, just because it is our opinion that we can. A little courteousness never hurt anyone.
All of that is just common sense to anyone with any objectivity at all.
 

kristin

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Aug 16, 2009
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You have just as much of a right to post here as any other forum member. I don't think kristen was trying to tell you to but out either. She was just expressing her point of view. She makes some very valid points too. Resistance for the sake of resistance doesn't help our cause. believe that our enemies are well organized and well funded. since we don't have the resources of the combined antis/FDA/whoever else, our only chance is to be better organized. I think that is the heart of what she was saying. On that point we agree. Keep posting man. Keep fighting. Never take because I said so as an answer. It's your fight, her fight all of our fight. United we stand!

Thanks, Mac, that is what I meant. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

It's just that I hear people ranting about "the system" and the government involvement like they are going to try to take a stand against the government with e-cigs and it's simply impractical. We don't have the organization and financial backing to change the system as it now stands. New drugs/products on the market in the U.S. are required to meet standards and testing. We aren't going to be able to change that - yet that is what people rant about. People seem to expect e-cigs to be given some kind of free pass. It's just not going to happen.

The only way to affect how e-cigs are received is by playing by the rules that currently stand and EDUCATING the masses. Just standing on the soapbox yelling "That's not fair! I'm not playing by your rules!" is not going to do anything. Yes, the rules are sometimes ludicrous and unfair, but if we get sidetracked by trying to change the rules, the e-cig battle will be lost in the shuffle. We CAN keep our e-cigs with other, more attainable methods than trying to change the whole system.

(Sometimes, I see the rants, yet when it comes time to actually stand up and do something - show up to protest, email legislators, forward positive and educational e-cig news/articles, these same people are nowhere to be found.)

It's called picking your battles. The same applies in a real war - concede one hill, one battle, so you can rally your forces to another battle - the one that will win the war.

My goal has always been to keep e-cigs available, affordable and effective. I believe we can still achieve that goal, even with unflavored e-liquid. Vendors can direct customers to this forum to learn more about flavoring their own liquid. Businesses can be started that create flavor mixes for customers to add to their unflavored e-liquid.

The antis have 3 main objections to e-cigs:
1. They feel they are targeted to kids through flavors and no sales restrictions

2. The second-hand vapor may bother and/or harm bystanders.

3. The vapor is not any safer than tobacco smoke.

If those three things are not addressed, they will keep fighting us.

So, the first and easiest to address is #1 - just eliminate flavors and support age restrictions. That may buy us enough time to get #2 & #3 taken care of.

Unfortunately, numbers 2 & 3 can only be handled by independent, qualified testing, BY THE MANUFACTURER of each and every liquid, which I can only guess Njoy is very well aware of and working on. Each brand will have to supply their own tests. If they don't get on the ball, the pharma companies will and they'll set the standards.

Finally, we have to get the word out about HARM REDUCTION. People need to accept that NRTs don't work, cold turkey rarely happens and e-cigs are for smokers to reduce their exposure, not eliminate it altogether. It's no different than a "reduced fat" product for those fighting obesity. Sure, they could quit fatty products altogether, but "reducing" exposure is acceptable to most of the public.

If big tobacco came out with a tobacco cigarette that was proven to be tar-free, carbon monoxide-free and free of 4,000 of the other toxins tobacco cigarettes contain, yet still had some trace toxins, they would be praised for their innovation by smokers and non-smokers alike. People would understand that it was a "better" cigarette for smokers. Why do they see e-cigs as an ADDTIONAL threat, instead of being that "better" cigarette??

THAT is a battle which needs to be won, more than keeping peach flavored liquid.
 
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ECGuy

Unregistered Supplier
Oct 14, 2009
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0
New Mexico
I have to agree with Kristin about the flavors, but it's bigger than just us. we all need to fight this, just not on an ecig level. If we complain about ecig flavors only, they will laugh. What each of us needs to do is contact our representatives and tell them this whole "flavors are for kids" argument is ludicrous, no matter what product it is aimed at.

As for the rest, it doesn't really matter. They are going to fight us no matter what we do, no matter what studies we have, no matter what the science says.Their campaign is not based on real science or a concern for health. so in the end, they are anti everything, from cigs to smokeless tobacco to ecigs.

But we do need more studies. WE do need more science. and we do need more money and organization in our activism. that will help. And we can use all the help we can get.
 

bogiediver

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
@ JoeMcPlumber

On the 11th, I posted that I copied your OP and emailed it to the ECA directly to see what their response would be... well, I received that response today - it is posted below.

Respectfully,

-bogie

*****************************
Re: Comments‏
From: James Watt (jwatt@ecassoc.org)
Sent: Mon 12/14/09 1:01 PM

The FDA has very clear rules regarding what is necessary for making smoking cessation claims. These claims must be backed by clinical studies showing that the claims of smoking cessation are founded on clinical data. This clinical data unfortunately cannot include real world usage. It must be done in a clinical setting and must be addressed by each individual supplier who wishes to offer such products to the market for smoking cessation. And simply because a supplier goes through the rigorous and expensive process for approval, does not guarantee a place in the current NRT market.

The ECA sees the electronic cigarette no differently than the current smokeless products on the market that have been produced by the tobacco industry. While all of these products such as dissovables, snuff, et all do in fact keep people from smoking, they are very clear in their claims that these are not quit smoking products, they are
alternative methods for nicotine without the byproducts of second hand smoke. Neither the FDA nor the anti-smoking groups are calling for other reduced harm products to be clinically proven to quit smoking and if the electronic cigarette had been released by the tobacco industry, the claims of smoking cessation would not be an issue.

To further back up this concept that the electronic cigarette is not a smoking cessation device, we must also look at the other factors surrounding what a Nicotine Replacement Therapy actually is. For instance, the CDC does not recognize smoking as a disease, but nicotine addiction. If the product has no end use date and delivers
nicotine, which most electronic cigarette users report they do use nicotine liquids, then they are not treating, mitigating or curing the disease of nicotine addiction, but continuing the addiction.

As there is no suggested end use date like there is with the current NRT's, and no step down program where the user would reduce their nicotine intake over a certain amount of time, then the electronic cigarette does not fall into the NRT category and to make such claims brings us back to the original argument that this is an alternative to smoking cigarettes, not a way to stop smoking completely. That said, if a supplier wishes to offer a step down program method, then that supplier most certainly should adhere to all of the current FDA regulations regarding smoking cessation claims.

Another argument is that if the other reduced harm products on the market are not required to go through such rigorous testing, why should the electronic cigarette be held to such standards? There is no doubt that the electronic cigarette liquid should be held to standards for safety and cleanliness and that goes for the hardware as well. But to prove that the electronic cigarette is safer than smoking nothing at all when tobacco cigarettes are proven to cause harm and potentially kill their users, seems a bit out of reality and logic.

The semantics game that goes on is a sad one and is not in the best interest of public health. If the true goal of the FDA and all anti-smoking advocates is to reduce harm to the public, then there are many products that have simply been miscategorized and the goal of the ECA is to create a middle ground between the "quit or die" philosophy, so that consumers can freely make their own choices regarding what nicotine system they so choose to use, while not receiving the byproducts of second hand smoke. To force the electronic cigarette into one of two categories that it simply does not fit, seems to be a direct violation of the idea of public health.

Thank you for sending us this concern and I do hope that this explanation helps in the understanding as to why the electronic cigarette is not an NRT, why suppliers should not be making such health claims, and why consumers should see the electronic cigarette as an alternative to tobacco instead of a smoking cessation device.

James Watt
ECA Vice Chair
 

JoeMcPlumber

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"This product does not create smoke".
"The use of this product is not smoking".
"Therefore if you use this device instead of smoking, you are a non-smoker".
"I stopped smoking immediately using this device, and i believe that you can too".
"This device produces no secondhand smoke".
"I can sit on the couch enjoying my e-cigarette right next my vehemently anti-smoking wife and not have a single complaint".
"E-cigarettes do not stink".
"E-cigarettes are lacking in most of the harmful compounds found in tobacco smoke, including carbon monoxide".
"The scientific evidence to date is that e-cigarettes are far less harmful than tobacco smoking".

Again and still my point remains,
you don't win a fight by appearing weak
nor can you win an argument by self-imposed Orwellian vocabulary reduction.

- joe
 

yvilla

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Joe, you're missing the point. It's strictly a legal construct, and a legal issue. The Food Drug and Cosmetic Act defines what products are considered "drug" or "drug device" products, in its Chapter V. See:
FD&C Act Chapter V: Drugs and Devices

NRT or "smoking cessation" products such as gum, patches, lozenges and inhalers fit within that definition, were designed as such, and took literally millions of dollars and many years to go through the required clinical trials that are part of the "new" drug approval procress found in Section 505 of Chapter V. See: SEC. 505. [21 USC §355] New Drugs

If any manufacturer wants its ecig product to be considered a smoking cessation product, well fine and good - but then it has to be prepared to spend those millions of dollars, and those years, trying for that approval. Or else its product is simply illegal to sell in the US.

Ecigs as sold in the US are not and have never been trying to be considered, legally, a smoking cessation product, for that very reason. They are positioned as a smoking alternative product, a tobacco harm reduction product, or whatever you want to call them. Plenty of regulatory hurdles still ahead, even IF the litigation contesting the FDA's position that they are "drug" products is won, but at least not instant and total illegality.
 

VapingRulz

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Oct 19, 2009
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I do take issue with people who insist that they will not make any concessions nor work with the powers that be, to keep e-cigs, because they don't think it's "right" that the government has any say in it. I don't appreciate their risking my ability to keep e-cigs, because they have some political message they want to send. To me, keeping them affordable, effective and available is a lot more important that making some kind of statement against the government.

If you choose to risk my ability to have my ecig, in order to use the ecig to fight your cause of changing the government or making some kind of statement, then I'm not your friend.

I love your articles and normally I agree with you wholeheartedly - but I believe that there is a small problem with your logic here. How do you expect to keep them "affordable" if the government decides that they are a) a tobacco product or b) a nicotine replacement product? Either way, they're going to slap an enormous tax on e-cigs and/or e-juice. The bottom line really is:


  • Governments want their tax revenue
  • Big Tobacco wants to sell their products. They do not currently produce e-juice. Every smoker who quits and vapes instead hurts their bottom line.
  • Special-interest non-smoking groups have become so powerful that it's scary. They can manufacture "evidence" and nobody questions them. The burden of proof is not their concern; they don't need it.
  • The lobbyists for all of the above organizations are about $$. They do not represent the best interests American people; they're not on our payroll.
Given all of the above, I really don't see how you can avoid having a political stance on the subject of e-cigarettes.

It is unlikely that a fledgling e-cig industry will win unless there is a groundswell of support that gets the attention of political leaders.

You'll notice that none of this has a single thing to do with public health. That's not really what's going on here. Follow the money.

Appeasement is what I think you're advocating here. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) It won't work to our advantage. This is war.
 

JoeMcPlumber

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How do you expect to keep them "affordable" if the government decides that they are a) a tobacco product or b) a nicotine replacement product?
I was gonna .... out cause my brain isn't working so good today,
but is that an accurate characterization of the issue?
Because i had the vague idea it was something along those lines
and that's why i've been so upset and why i think
that we (our side) should be aggressively recasting the premises of the debate...
i.e. the semantic framework within which we argue our case.
Or preferably get away from semantic arguments altogether
and just talk straight,
because of the two choices you present the e-cig is clearly neither.

I guess i did miss the point but even if i'm getting it now,
it irks me that if i call an e-cig a "cessation device"
then i must be calling it an NRT.
Dammit that ain't what i said.

The ECA is doing a p***-poor job of it, as i noted,
making insubstantial apologetic offerings
to a pack of crazed and fearful rabid wolves,
and failing to even distance the product from the nomenclature of cigarette smoking.

Appeasement is what I think you're advocating here. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) It won't work to our advantage. This is war.
This is also my opinion.

- joe
 

kristin

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I love your articles and normally I agree with you wholeheartedly - but I believe that there is a small problem with your logic here. How do you expect to keep them "affordable" if the government decides that they are a) a tobacco product or b) a nicotine replacement product? Either way, they're going to slap an enormous tax on e-cigs and/or e-juice. The bottom line really is:


  • Governments want their tax revenue
  • Big Tobacco wants to sell their products. They do not currently produce e-juice. Every smoker who quits and vapes instead hurts their bottom line.
  • Special-interest non-smoking groups have become so powerful that it's scary. They can manufacture "evidence" and nobody questions them. The burden of proof is not their concern; they don't need it.
  • The lobbyists for all of the above organizations are about $$. They do not represent the best interests American people; they're not on our payroll.
Given all of the above, I really don't see how you can avoid having a political stance on the subject of e-cigarettes.

It is unlikely that a fledgling e-cig industry will win unless there is a groundswell of support that gets the attention of political leaders.

You'll notice that none of this has a single thing to do with public health. That's not really what's going on here. Follow the money.

Appeasement is what I think you're advocating here. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) It won't work to our advantage. This is war.

It's not appeasement as much as working within the system.

It's a war, but we are on their battlefield. It's like Burma declaring war on the U.S.

Ideally, e-cigs would get their own catagory, but I don't see that happening. We are left with a choice of a lesser of two evils. So, e-cigs need to be considered in the same group as "smokeless tobacco."

If they are considered to be an NRT, they will have to meet nearly impossible standards and extensive testing. They will be put in the hands of Big Pharma, where they'll water them down and make them tamper-proof (rendering them ineffective), sharply increase the price (to cover their testing costs) and quite possibly require a prescription (affecting their availability). They will also have a "step-down" requirement. So, they'll probably only sell full kits - no refills or replacement parts. VERY expensive.

If they get lumped in with smokeless tobacco, the price will increase from taxing (we can't avoid price increases either way) but they'll still be more affordable than if they're a drug and I don't think tobacco companies will be as limited with how much nicotine they can have nor designs. The only thing that can be regulated is the flavors - which, if the design remains, can be doctored to add our own flavors, the same you can with tobacco now, using Tasty Puff. I hope for a loophole that they can offer unflavored and we'll be able to flavor our own.

Big Tobacco CAN make money off of e-cigs, the same way they do chew & snus. They have a HUGE, ready source of nicotine. Instead of processing the tobacco to put in paper rolls, they process it to extract the tobacco and put it into e-liquid. By selling e-cigs, tobacco companies still sell to people who otherwise might be buying NRTs. It'll actually EXPAND their market share.

Regardless, I DO have a political stance on e-cigs. I just don't see the point of the rants about how the government sucks and shouldn't be all up in our business and how we have to change the government itself. It isn't going to happen over e-cigs! We just don't have the member numbers and political clout to make that level of change. How is this one little group going to convince the government that they should let us do whatever we want? We can't. There is no way the government is going to open THAT door for every nut out there claiming they are free to do whatever they want. We aren't going to make the FDA and antis go away and leave us alone. It is what it is and we have to work within the current laws, practices and political climate.

What we CAN change is public perception (public includes our government representatives.) The only way that can happen is with PROOF that the e-cig is no more dangerous than NRTs, that kids don't want to buy them, that the second-hand vapor isn't a danger to bystanders and that reduced harm IS a valid concept. We need to do that by getting the truth out there - convincing the companies to get safety testing done to refute the FDA report, getting the media on our side with the reduced harm concept (which they won't touch until we get the tests), writing articles, demonstrating to bystanders, talking to people about it in real life and online, getting doctors on our side (again - need testing) and making some concessions to placate people's concerns.

Until we can show concrete proof that e-cigs are a real benefit to users and not a danger to bystanders or a threat to their children, we won't be able to change attitudes. Until we change attitudes, we won't be able to convince legislators that they are OK to support us and our cause.

To think that we will save e-cigs by changing government policy is simply not practical. To change policy, you have to change attitudes. To change attitudes, you have to have proof to back you up. To get proof, you need proper testing. Trying to change the government policies first is putting the cart before the horse.

If I'm going to lobby anyone, it's the manufacturers - get the damned testing done already!! Everything hinges on that, IMO.

I've seen how galvanized this community gets when called to action. A core group of members write the legislators, comment on articles and get involved. everyone else? Nothing.

I write articles because people complain about the negative articles in mainstream media and press releases from ASH, yet when I call for help to get it out there, less than 50 people answer.

Yeah, we're really going to have any kind of impact that way. :rolleyes:

Honestly, THAT really pisses me off.
 
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berthoff

Full Member
Dec 29, 2009
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You said:
"Giving an example of some of your statement about "burden of proof", I faced the same obstacle with my own wife. She's a lifetime non-smoker and her deepest desire has always been for me to quit as well as being outspoken about the evils of smoking. I knew the ecig was the best path, but to her, since it simulated smoking and I use nicotine in it, it was no different and probably deadlier with the "antifreeze" carrier. I was able to explain the difference in glycols with no problem, but had some trouble convincing her that the nic was probably no more dangerous than the strong coffee I drink."

I'm happy to say that my non-smoking, hyperallergenic wife has been most supportive! She even agreed to buy me my e-cigarette and e-pipe for Christmas. She gets a kick out of my using them ... especially since she knows I'm no longer ruining my lungs.

She thinks it's great that I'm experimenting with flavors. (I'm now down to VG, water and flavorings, except for an occasional medium nic). Keeps me busy and hapy and distracted from going back to analong.

I think that the NRT argument is really strong. How is the patch less dangerous that vaping? I'll never get a skin rash from vaping, and if I wear a patch there's always a chance that nic will get on the bedsheets or in the laundry, and aggrevate her rashes.

Bert
 
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