I'm not smarter than anyone. People are not getting the effect from nicotine salts they have heard about, I'm just trying to help decipher why. This is part of the reason juul are doing so well because they are aware of the chemistry. Regards.
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Since that is not the topic of this thread, perhaps you should start another one with your chosen topic in mind.
Kind regards.
You are making one claim about chemistry and then making an assumptive claim about labelling. You claim that a nicotine salt is a chemical combination of nicotine and an acid -- for example, a gram of nicotine benzoate may be roughly 0.57 grams nicotine and 0.43 grams benzoic acid. This is true.
But, that doesn't mean that a salt-nic product labelled as 5% nicotine is really closer to half that nicotine content. Juul claims a 5% nicotine content (59mg/ml) in their strongest formulation, and here is an example formulation from their patent filing:
US20150020824A1 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof - Google Patents
So you see, just because a nicotine salt itself may be part nicotine and part salt, that does NOT mean a salt-nic product labelled as 5% nicotine has anything less than 5% nicotine and thus has the same nicotine content as a freebase product labelled as 5% nicotine.
I think the reason JUUL is doing so well is because they have more closely matched the satisfaction (and by extension the absorption rate) of nicotine to that of traditional cigarettes. JUUL was smart enough to use high nicotine levels to simulate smoking even though it takes more nicotine than cigarettes to achieve this. Trying to do this with FB nicotine would leave most folks coughing up a lung, so new methods and were used to make the experience viable. And yes, because JUUL did the research and applied the science from what they learned they have a product that is quite useful for helping people quit smoking. Seemed to have worked out pretty good.
The end result is that people ARE getting the effect from nicotine salts that they have heard about since the popularity and success of JUUL is proof that can't just be denied.
If you can't raise the levels of FB nicotine to high enough levels to satisfy a smoker trying to quit because of factors like extreme throat hit and adequate absorption levels, but you can use salts to moderate this to different levels of comfort then you have a winning combination that solves a problem that really helps people quit smoking.
That's right the 5% equivalent is freebase. So, approx 40mg freebase in each pod (0.7ml @ 59mg/ml) which is 70mg nicotine
salt (100mg/ml).
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But you keep insisting that a nic-salt product labelled at XX-mg/ml is not equivalent to a freebase product labelled as XX-mg/ml -- or labelled XX%. I can only guess that you must be assuming that companies are labelling their products according to the combined nic-salt content rather than the nicotine content alone. Now, we've established that Juul is labelling according to actual nicotine content. Do you have any evidence that other companies are labelling something other than the actual nicotine content used in their formulations?
Here in Canada I can buy this product (note 66mg/ml is the max nic content that can now be legally sold/shipped in Canada, but just a few months ago you could buy it in 100mg/ml nicotine content ... most suppliers have now switched over to offerings of 60 or 65 mg/ml):
It is expressly labelled by nicotine content and has 60mg/ml nicotine -- the same amount of nicotine content as when I buy the 60mg/ml freebase nicotine product.
There 2 different chemicals. One is nicotine. The other is nicotine salt. I have already been over this in the thread. 100mg/ml nicotine is not the same as 100mg/ml nicotine salt as a matter of freebase nicotine equivalence (absorbtion rates aside) Juul as above have calculated there 100mg/ml nicotine salt contains 59mg/ml of freebase nicotine.
Drug form
Nicotine can be purchased as either a free base (liquid at
room temperature, MW 162) or in several forms of tartrate
salt (nicotine hydrogen tartrate and nicotine bitartrate) with
an anhydrous MW of 462. However, the tartrate salt
crystallizes as the dihydrate and, therefore, a MW of 498
should be used for calculating concentrations (see below).
Although the free base is the active form, a number of
publications have reported the dose based only on the salt
form used. Investigators need to be aware of this inconsis-
tency when selecting a dose or dose range from the
literature. In this review, we have reported the concen-
trations of the salt forms as identified in the original
publications, whenever possible, but have appended a
calculated free base concentration in brackets when
necessary. If the concentration provided herein is not
followed by a bracketed dose, then free base nicotine was
used in the original citation. To convert the dose reported as
bitartrate salt to free base nicotine, multiply the bitartrate by
(162.2/498) or 0.325. Investigators are strongly advised that
nicotine doses should be selected and reported as the free
base concentration for all studies.
Nicotine can be purchased as either a free base (liquid at
room temperature, MW 162) or in several forms of tartrate
salt (nicotine hydrogen tartrate and nicotine bitartrate) with
an anhydrous MW of 462. However, the tartrate salt
crystallizes as the dihydrate and, therefore, a MW of 498
should be used for calculating concentrations (see below).
Although the free base is the active form, a number of
publications have reported the dose based only on the salt
form used. Investigators need to be aware of this inconsis-
tency when selecting a dose or dose range from the
literature. In this review, we have reported the concen-
trations of the salt forms as identified in the original
publications, whenever possible, but have appended a
calculated free base concentration in brackets when
necessary. If the concentration provided herein is not
followed by a bracketed dose, then free base nicotine was
used in the original citation. To convert the dose reported as
bitartrate salt to free base nicotine, multiply the bitartrate by
(162.2/498) or 0.325. Investigators are strongly advised that
nicotine doses should be selected and reported as the free
base concentration for all studies.
We know nicotine-salt and nicotine are two different things. And if a company sold something that was 100mg/ml of nicotine-salt it would indeed be not equivalent to 100mg/ml freebase nicotine. BUT, does anyone actually sell a nicotine-salt where the 100mg/ml label is a measure of the nicotine-salt content instead of the nicotine content used in the formulation??? I've seen nicotine salt products sold with "100mg/ml nicotine content", I haven't seen a nicotine salt product sold as "100mg/ml nicotine-salt content".
I gave an example above of a nic-salt product sold and labelled by actual nicotine content in Canada. Let's look at a US supplier: Looking at a page from Liquid Nicotine Wholesalers for their 100mg/ml nic-salt product, it says nicotine content 100mg/ml --- are you saying they are mistaken? Lying? Something else?
100mg Nicotine Salts
They also suggest 6-15mg for subohm. I Vape at 18mg nic salts subohm as I have a high tolerance. Where do they say same as normal freebase nicotine level? Maybe others are not aware. But, there not doing anything wrong. These places are shops where YOU buy stuff...
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Well, right on that very page, just below the price ...
*Nicotine Content (mg/mL)
100mg
It does not say *Nicotine-Salt Content. Since it is very easy to produce a nicotine-salt product that has 100mg/ml freebase equivalent, why do you assume they aren't doing so?
You all have the information. So, tell us how we make a 100mg/ml (nicotine 100 mg/ml) salt?
Why are they suggesting 6-15mg for subohm nic salt? I'm sorry you overlooked the scientific paper for a product advertisement.
Why are they suggesting 6-15mg for subohm nic salt? I'm sorry you overlooked the scientific paper for a product advertisement.
Follow the method of the Juul formulation outlined above but use:
0.76g benzoic acid
1.0g nicotine
10.03g PG/VG (3:7)
(approximately)
Who cares what they recommend, use what works for you. And I have no idea what point you are trying make with the rest of your comment.
Ok sorry I stuffed the last bit up, I am talking about equivalency with 100mg/ml freebase nicotine. You are correct.
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