Evolv-ing Thread

[awsum140]

I'm addicted to the Logitech M570 trackball. I don't bother with their soft/bloatware and am happy with the standard left/right click. Never bother with the other buttons at all. My problem with them is that the left switch wears out, and I've worn out three of them over the last six years. I hate touchpads so the one on this craptop gets a lot of use. I may try that Kensington Expert, if I'm feeling flush, the next time this one goes.

 

[dwcraig1]

At work a couple of years ago (at least) water from the garden area above leaked onto the roof of this Range Rover and left a pretty good calcium deposit.
I decided to give it a go using vinegar, clay and wax.
Here's before and after, it still has some traces of it but came out a lot better than expected. It should have been gotten to sooner.

 

[TrollDragon]

Somebody would be paying for repainting that Range Rover if it was mine...

 

[CMD-Ky]

Nice job, must have been a lot of hard work.

At work a couple of years ago (at least) water from the garden area above leaked onto the roof of this Range Rover and left a pretty good calcium deposit.
I decided to give it a go using vinegar, clay and wax.
Here's before and after, it still has some traces of it but came out a lot better than expected. It should have been gotten to sooner.
View attachment 870839
View attachment 870843

 

[awsum140]

I'd agree, TD, except that whoever owns it waited, apparently, for few years before complaining. If that had been worked on right after it happened it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

 

[TrollDragon]

I'd agree, TD, except that whoever owns it waited, apparently, for few years before complaining. If that had been worked on right after it happened it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

True, lots of scenarios come to mind though like working overseas or deployment etc. A car like that left in an underground parking garage for extended periods of time should have had a cover on it. I'm surprised there wasn't a layer of dust and grime on the vehicle. I guess the fans and filtration system are working properly there, unlike some of the underground parking where I've lived before.

 

[BillW50]

I don’t understand - it is working as it should. Modifying button 3 will require a driver. It’s default functions will be dictated by the OS or the application you are running.

Okay, I had to fire up that computer. Opened the Task Manager and ended Logitech Options. Then closed SetPoint within the Notification area and now no middle click on the M705. If I unplug the Logitech Unifying receiver and then plug it back in, the middle button now functions again.

Now using my Logitech K400r keyboard with my HP Pavilion x360-15br that never had any Logitech software installed, the function keys doesn't work without holding down the Fn first. It isn't this laptop alone, it works this way on all computers without SetPoint. Only within SetPoint, can you toggle this and not have to use the Fn key for the F1-F12 keys.

Also interesting, I plugged the Logitech Unifying receiver into the HP that is paired with a M705, K350 keyboard, and also a Logitech Touchpad T650. Remember SetPoint has never been on this machine. And about a minute later, a scrolling window scrolls up from the notification area saying the T650 will work better if I install SetPoint. Now where did that come from? Was it a message sent from the Logitech Unifying receiver?

My only gripe with the G900/903 was premature switch failure. Both are plagued by the infamous double click issue.

This is a super common problem with many of Logitech right and left click devices. Searching on the Internet, there are a few different theories on why this happens. Some say it is a static buildup, others say it is caps not discharging, etc. A temporary fix is to remove the batteries and clicking on the problem button dozens of times. Or remove the batteries and let it sit for hours or days. When you install the batteries, it will work fine for hours, days, or months until the next treatment. Funny their dirt cheap mice doesn't suffer from this problem (i.e. M305), just more costly devices.

 

[BillW50]

I'm addicted to the Logitech M570 trackball. I don't bother with their soft/bloatware and am happy with the standard left/right click. Never bother with the other buttons at all. My problem with them is that the left switch wears out, and I've worn out three of them over the last six years. I hate touchpads so the one on this craptop gets a lot of use. I may try that Kensington Expert, if I'm feeling flush, the next time this one goes.

I still have a couple of M570 trackballs that are in their boxes. I tried to use one and due to my essential tremors, my thumb just wasn't accurate enough. In the 80's, I loved the trackball with the arcade game Centipede. Later I got one with my Atari 2600. In the early 90's, I had a Toshiba Win 3.1 laptop with a clip on trackball. Used that trackball all of the time.

Yeah I said I was happy with the standard right and click devices too. But later, I found some uses for the middle click. One is that autoscroll with browsers. Now I can read without hands. Use my hands to fill my tanks, dip, drink coffee, etc. while reading. You can also close tabs with it. It is also handy with some games. There are lots of things you can do with them. I'm spoiled now. As it is currently annoying to go without one nowadays.

 

[BillW50]

The Logitech Gaming software is exclusive to their gaming lineup of mice. Logitech obviously felt it was beneficial to develop different software for their gaming line up which does offer additional features over their general lineup. I agree with this decision.

Have used both the G900 and its evolution G903. Great mice, but in order to combat some of the known deficiencies with wireless mice, such as latency, different transmit/receiver and sensors were required which do consume more power. Add in a small battery so that they keep the weight down (weight is very important to a gamer), and you have poor battery life. All wireless gaming mice of the time that were at least on par with the G900/G903 suffered from the same poor battery life. Further development has improved battery life.

That is great and all. But Logitech Gaming LGS won't detect my G903. So all of the great features of the G903 (150 bucks worth) are totally useless. Not only won't it work with my Lenovo laptops, but neither with my HP, Gateway, Alienware, etc. machines. All I can do with it is use it as a standard 3 button mouse. Big deal!

Yeah that is one explanation on why the Logitech G903 drains batteries within 24 hours. But I believe there is also another nefarious reason. As Logitech figures if you are silly enough to spend 150 bucks for a mouse. Then you are probably crazy enough to spend 120 bucks extra on a wireless charging mousepad if they make the battery capacity small enough.

 

[dwcraig1]

I'd agree, TD, except that whoever owns it waited, apparently, for few years before complaining. If that had been worked on right after it happened it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

Back when it happened I told him I "might" be able to do it but recommended he take it to a professional and give the bill to the HOA, after all he is the HOA president....LOL. That is a special edtion supercharged Range Rover BTW.
Or is it turbo, I forget?

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Okay, I had to fire up that computer. Opened the Task Manager and ended Logitech Options. Then closed SetPoint within the Notification area and now no middle click on the M705. If I unplug the Logitech Unifying receiver and then plug it back in, the middle button now functions again.

How many processes does Setpoint run? Does terminating the software also reset the driver? Willing to bet no, and the driver will remain in memory. But terminating the software you have also terminated the custom action that is set to button 3. Unplugging and plugging back in the receiver forces Windows to recognize the hardware again, thus setting the default HID driver and resetting the defaults actions to button 3

Now using my Logitech K400r keyboard with my HP Pavilion x360-15br that never had any Logitech software installed, the function keys doesn't work without holding down the Fn first. It isn't this laptop alone, it works this way on all computers without SetPoint. Only within SetPoint, can you toggle this and not have to use the Fn key for the F1-F12 keys.

Do not own a K400 keyboard, but looking at pictures, the function keys serve multiple purposes vs a standard QWERTY keyboard. The Logitech driver and software will be needed in order for these keys to function. The remaining keyboard will be HID compliant.

Also interesting, I plugged the Logitech Unifying receiver into the HP that is paired with a M705, K350 keyboard, and also a Logitech Touchpad T650. Remember SetPoint has never been on this machine. And about a minute later, a scrolling window scrolls up from the notification area saying the T650 will work better if I install SetPoint. Now where did that come from? Was it a message sent from the Logitech Unifying receiver?

No idea where that message came from. Open to the possibility it came from the receiver. A touch pad has specific features that a mouse does not such as gestures and multiple touch points, so it would be beneficial to install the appropriate software. Without the software the touch pad is still HID compliant, just won't have all those extra features.

This is a super common problem with many of Logitech right and left click devices. Searching on the Internet, there are a few different theories on why this happens. Some say it is a static buildup, others say it is caps not discharging, etc. A temporary fix is to remove the batteries and clicking on the problem button dozens of times. Or remove the batteries and let it sit for hours or days. When you install the batteries, it will work fine for hours, days, or months until the next treatment. Funny their dirt cheap mice doesn't suffer from this problem (i.e. M305), just more costly devices.

The double click problem is common among many gaming mice and not just Logitech. If you look at how the switch operates, a button press pushes down a leaf spring type contact (best I can describe). Over time this leaf spring loses some of it’s springiness (for lack of better words), and does not fall back to it’s original position but instead hits the contact twice for a single button push. Reforming the spring is a temporary fix for those who many have the patience dealing with such small parts. The problem is sporadic and annoying as hell.

It is not static buildup or capacitors not discharging for it only happens to leaf spring type switches. Leaf spring type switches are said to be more responsive, hence being used for gaming specific mice. Budget mice do not use these types of switches.

You cannot remove the battery of the G900/903 without taking the mouse apart. Many gaming mice are the same.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

That is great and all. But Logitech Gaming LGS won't detect my G903. So all of the great features of the G903 (150 bucks worth) are totally useless. Not only won't it work with my Lenovo laptops, but neither with my HP, Gateway, Alienware, etc. machines. All I can do with it is use it as a standard 3 button mouse. Big deal!

Yeah that is one explanation on why the Logitech G903 drains batteries within 24 hours. But I believe there is also another nefarious reason. As Logitech figures if you are silly enough to spend 150 bucks for a mouse. Then you are probably crazy enough to spend 120 bucks extra on a wireless charging mousepad if they make the battery capacity small enough.

So you are saying the mouse along with Gaming software will not work across multiple machines? Sounds like a defective mouse to me, or something has gone wrong with the installation. If memory serves me correctly, the software must be installed prior to plugging in the mouse. Have you installed other mice software on these machines? Driver conflict perhaps? Why are you having these issues and not the thousands of other users, myself included?

The G900 was revolutionary in how it dealt with typical wireless latency. Other companies, Razer, Corsair, Asus etc, all followed suit. Some of these mice are also expensive, some much cheaper. All display a very similar runtime in terms of battery life. And this was pre wireless charging mouse pads.

The G903 is identical to the 900 but incorporates the wireless charging. The suggested retail price did not change between the 2. Expensive, yes – but you are paying for performance. There are more expensive gaming mice on the market and without wireless charging.

Wireless gaming mice have evolved since the introduction of the G900, and with that evolution, battery runtime has improved but still pales in comparison to standard wireless mice.

 

[BillW50]

Do not own a K400 keyboard, but looking at pictures, the function keys serve multiple purposes vs a standard QWERTY keyboard. The Logitech driver and software will be needed in order for these keys to function. The remaining keyboard will be HID compliant.

I get that. But if you have function keys, they must be function keys by default. It has been this way since day one. If you want to add extra functions to them, then fine. As long as pressing F2 alone means F2. Just imagine all of the people out there trying to get into the BIOS Setup by pressing the corresponding key for hours and it never happens. The reason being all other keyboards in the world this would work, but only on a K400 you have to press Fn+corresponding key instead. This is a design by a madman!

The double click problem is common among many gaming mice and not just Logitech. If you look at how the switch operates, a button press pushes down a leaf spring type contact (best I can describe). Over time this leaf spring loses some of it’s springiness (for lack of better words), and does not fall back to it’s original position but instead hits the contact twice for a single button push. Reforming the spring is a temporary fix for those who many have the patience dealing with such small parts. The problem is sporadic and annoying as hell.

I know, I read this too. Some also say the button's tab that rubs the spring wears down which causes the switch to only make intermittent connections. So they say building up the tab will fix it.

It is not static buildup or capacitors not discharging for it only happens to leaf spring type switches. Leaf spring type switches are said to be more responsive, hence being used for gaming specific mice. Budget mice do not use these types of switches.

I know, I didn't believe it either when I heard some claiming static electricity and/or caps not discharging either. But then again, blowing very humid air, or removing the batteries, etc. actually temporary fixes it. And I can't explain why that would work with weak leaf springs. As this also works with my M510, Anywhere MX, T400, T620, etc.

You cannot remove the battery of the G900/903 without taking the mouse apart. Many gaming mice are the same.

Well true, but it only takes 24 hours or less to drain the battery low enough where the mouse won't fire up. That might be all that is needed.

 

[BillW50]

So you are saying the mouse along with Gaming software will not work across multiple machines? Sounds like a defective mouse to me, or something has gone wrong with the installation.

I agree. Another possibility is all of them were running Windows 10 build 1803 and Logitech Gaming LGS_8.85.215_x64. So maybe this combination doesn't play nice together.

If memory serves me correctly, the software must be installed prior to plugging in the mouse. Have you installed other mice software on these machines? Driver conflict perhaps?

Yes SetPoint was on some and the laptops have touchpad drivers on them.

Why are you having these issues and not the thousands of other users, myself included?

Actually if you Google this, there are thousands that are having this same issue.

Wireless gaming mice have evolved since the introduction of the G900, and with that evolution, battery runtime has improved but still pales in comparison to standard wireless mice.

Yeah I don't see the reason for all of this need for speed. I am using a cheap wireless M305 mouse at the moment and I don't detect any delay in any movements at all. So what does this $150 give you anyway? 5 microseconds of difference than a $10 mouse or what?

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Does the BIOS not acknowledge the F1 through F12 keys? I do not own the keyboard so can’t confirm. But the BIOS has to write an action to these key presses. If there is no action written within the BIOS, then the key does not function. Enter your BIOS and confirm that all “F” keys perform an action as depicted by the BIOS.

An intermittent connection is not a double click. To me, intermittent is no click. There is software, even web sites that confirms double click actions. Not sure I understand your “tab” reference.

The problem is sporadic enough to believe it maybe something else other than a dysfunctional spring which may behave poorly given the amount of pressure and or frequency of the click that is applied. What does blowing humid air give to an encased switch? The air pressure has to be great enough to not only pierce the enclosure of the mouse, but also pierce the enclosure of the encased switch. Anything that influences a non contact would register as a non click, not a double click.

And your removing of the batteries proves what? Wired mice are also plagued with the double click issue. The problem is the switch, not power delivery.

If you do not see the need for speed, then why did you purchase a $150 performance mouse? That’s like purchasing a Corvette only to realize you can’t take the wife and 2 kids plus the dog on a family road trip. Everyday computing does not exploit the G903 potentials. You may not detect the latency between the M705 and the G903 using Excel, or browsing the web. But enter a fast paced FPS, and remove your own human deficiencies along with any other hardware deficiencies such as monitor and or GPU and the differences are night and day.

 

[BillW50]

Does the BIOS not acknowledge the F1 through F12 keys?

The BIOS will acknowledge F1 through F12 if you hold down the Fn with them. That is insane.

An intermittent connection is not a double click. To me, intermittent is no click. There is software, even web sites that confirms double click actions.

If the switch is intermittent, it could register as more then one click.

Not sure I understand your “tab” reference.

Inside underneath the left and right button, there is a tab that sticks down and presses down on the leaf spring when you press down on the button.

The problem is sporadic enough to believe it maybe something else other than a dysfunctional spring which may behave poorly given the amount of pressure and or frequency of the click that is applied. What does blowing humid air give to an encased switch? The air pressure has to be great enough to not only pierce the enclosure of the mouse, but also pierce the enclosure of the encased switch. Anything that influences a non contact would register as a non click, not a double click.

You know, only messing up by double clicking doesn't sound like a mechanical switch problem to me. That sounds more like a digital logic behavior. Like it is registering a click when you press down and another click when you let up. Blowing humid air doesn't help the switch, but in theory, it gets the PCB damp enough to bleed off the build up of static charge.

I haven't done blowing humid air thing too much. But I have removed the batteries and tossed it in a drawer for awhile and also removing the batteries and repeatedly clicking the switch for awhile. Both methods temporary fixes the double clicking issue here.

I didn't know about it affects wired mice too. I haven't used wired mice in years. And why does something cheap like a $10 M305 mouse never experience this problem? The clicks always registers just fine. And how old are M305 mice, like 10 years old now? I have two of them and they never have given me any trouble.

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-M305-Wireless-Mouse-Silver/dp/B002Y6CJJ8

OMG! Amazon wants $128 for a M305. You used to find them for 10 bucks. This one on Amazon uses a nano receiver, but some used the Logitech Unifying receiver like mine.

If you do not see the need for speed, then why did you purchase a $150 performance mouse?

For gaming and for the extra buttons. Standard mice are ok, but slightly lacking.

But enter a fast paced FPS, and remove your own human deficiencies along with any other hardware deficiencies such as monitor and or GPU and the differences are night and day.

Well I bought the G903 back in June 2019 and I guess it has a 3 year warranty. Although Logitech service might be horrible and useless. And if I ever get it working with the Logitech Gaming software, I guess I could see it for myself.

 

[BillW50]

I found this for Logitech spring replacement.

5 spring fix double click for Logitech mouse M305 MX1100 M705 G700 G500 G1 MX300 | eBay

Even on eBay, M305 isn't cheap.

 

[stylemessiah]

The BIOS will acknowledge F1 through F12 if you hold down the Fn with them. That is insane.

The Function key behaviour change on laptops (largely) happened in the last 5-6 years kinda by stealth as manufacturers decided that with people largely now ignorant to the common usage for Function keys that it was preferable to make them active their toggle functions...Volume increase/decrease, Brightness increase/decrease etc, for multimedia controls. The advent of mice and trackpads didnt kill the usage of the Function keys as quickly as you would have thought, and it seemed to happen quite suddenly in the end

Its only old timers that remember that F1-F12 actually used to have useful functions in programs like Word and Excel. Ask even an old timer when they last used Alt + F4 to exit a program?

Its often possible to find an option, depending on manufacturer, to revert to the Function keys being actual Function keys, most often in the BIOS. Sometimes via a custom option in the Windows Mobile Options

Ive been into PC's since well, the 70's, working in IT since the late 80's, and i sometimes see the downsides of this switchover, most notably when someone i know buys a new laptop, that i set up for them, and having explained the Fn key choices they say, "no, leave it as it is", only to a day later get a frantic phone call when they cant get onto the internet because theyve hit F7 and its toggle their WiFi off I always recommend turning them back into function keys so that important settings like sound/screen brightness and WiFi take that extra step of holding down the Fn key to activate...but sometime sit takes people learning the hard way to see the point

A good little article on how to choose the Function keys functions

https://www.howtogeek.com/235351/ho...unction-keys-are-f1-f12-keys-or-special-keys/

 

[BillW50]

 

[tiburonfirst]