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Evolv-ing Thread

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by KTMRider, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. stylemessiah

    stylemessiah Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 16, 2015
    Sydney, Australia
    The Function key behaviour change on laptops (largely) happened in the last 5-6 years kinda by stealth as manufacturers decided that with people largely now ignorant to the common usage for Function keys that it was preferable to make them active their toggle functions...Volume increase/decrease, Brightness increase/decrease etc, for multimedia controls. The advent of mice and trackpads didnt kill the usage of the Function keys as quickly as you would have thought, and it seemed to happen quite suddenly in the end

    Its only old timers that remember that F1-F12 actually used to have useful functions in programs like Word and Excel. Ask even an old timer when they last used Alt + F4 to exit a program?

    Its often possible to find an option, depending on manufacturer, to revert to the Function keys being actual Function keys, most often in the BIOS. Sometimes via a custom option in the Windows Mobile Options

    Ive been into PC's since well, the 70's, working in IT since the late 80's, and i sometimes see the downsides of this switchover, most notably when someone i know buys a new laptop, that i set up for them, and having explained the Fn key choices they say, "no, leave it as it is", only to a day later get a frantic phone call when they cant get onto the internet because theyve hit F7 and its toggle their WiFi off :) I always recommend turning them back into function keys so that important settings like sound/screen brightness and WiFi take that extra step of holding down the Fn key to activate...but sometime sit takes people learning the hard way to see the point :)

    A good little article on how to choose the Function keys functions

    https://www.howtogeek.com/235351/how-to-choose-whether-your-function-keys-are-f1-f12-keys-or-special-keys/
     
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  2. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    Morning Coffee 497.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 12
  3. tiburonfirst

    tiburonfirst They call me 'Tibs" Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 23, 2010
    back home
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 10
  4. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    Odd that someone is selling replacement springs that is specifically described as a fix for double click issues, especially when you feel the problem is not related to the spring.

    There are reports of the M305 also being plagued by the double click problem. So will assume they also use similar leaf spring type switches (the actual name is miniature snap-action switch). The M305 is not a gaming mouse, so the likelihood of it being subjected to the same stresses over the same duration will be rare, thus the problem may not reveal itself until much later on. Or perhaps not happen at all. The conditions for the failure have to be met.

    Every mouse that uses miniature snap-action switches can develop the double click issue. Be it wired, wireless, gaming or just cheap run of the mill mice. Search Corsair, Razer, Steelseries, Asus, all have reports of double click issues.

    Video repairing the spring on a M705 due to double click issues.



    How you deal with problematic hardware is your choice. Me, if the mouse, especially a $150 mouse (they are $200 CAN), did not work as advertised out of the box, I would immediately request a replacement. And if that replacement also failed, I would immediately request a refund and buy something else.
     
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  5. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    No, I am opened minded. And I never said it isn't the spring. I just said what has worked temporary and some fixes doesn't sound like a switch problem. And when people disassemble the switch they are also discharging all of the static charge build up inside the mouse. There are lots of doors opened here and lots of possibilities. And there is a possibility that there are more than one cause that causes double clicking.

    My M510, Anywhere MX, etc are not gaming mice and they all developed the double click problem. Why my two M305 mice never developed the problem after many years of use, your guess is as good as mine. But I do know there is at least two versions of the M305. One uses a nano receiver and one uses the Unifying receiver. And perhaps there are more versions of the M305. One that uses that type of switch and one uses another type. They always worked for me and I never had a reason to take them apart.

    And before the M305 was the V220. Amazingly from the outside they look identical. Although the V220 uses one of those long receivers and were released about 16 years ago. I may have some of them around still. Heck eBay and Amazon still sells them. And those I never had double click issues with them either.

    I bought some cheap gaming mice from China that also developed the double clicking issue. Now why on Earth would Logitech and other manufacturers continue to use the same type of switch that fails for? Unless it is good for sales or something. There are plenty of switches currently being manufactured that would work in there that would last a lifetime.

    Speaking about problematic, how are you doing with your double clicking game mice? Did you request a refund yet? I can put up with many things, but suffering with double clicking is a big no-no with me.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  6. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    I do not know why your M305 has not developed a double click issue. Why are there reports on the internet of others experiencing double click issues with the M305? My M705 never had a double click issue, but I displayed a video above on someone attempting to fix the double click problem with the M705. I can’t go on the logic that if my M705 does not have issues, then all M705 must be the same.

    How did you conclude Logitech uses the same switches as the cheap gaming mice from China? You take them apart? Does Razer, who has developed their own switches in conjunction with Omron use the same switch as your cheap China gaming mice? They must if they fail as well.

    I do not deal with double click issues. If I suspect the switch is failing, I conduct a test to verify the problem ruling out me or any other factors. If I conclude the switch is failing, the mouse gets retired and I purchase a new one. I accept its fate and choose not to put forth any efforts toward temporary fixes for I do not feel it is worth the hassle.

    All my double click issues begun after years of use. If static was the culprit, it would happen at any time, regardless if the mouse was new or old. And once it’s discharged, static should no longer be a problem until it builds up again. But yet, the switch failure can happen very consecutively and consistently. Static would also affect all switches. All my failures have been the left button only – the right works perfectly fine. The gap between the 2 contact points of a micro switch is tiny – how come static is not discharged when the button isn’t pressed? Is the static that controlled? And if static build up was enough to effect the operation of a mechanical switch, what’s it doing to the other components inside the mouse? You would have all kinds of sporadic problems assuming the static was not powerful enough to destroy other sensitive components. And why do wired mice that are electrically grounded suffer the same double click issue? And how does static travel through the plastic casing of a mouse and only focus its discharge on 1 switch when there are hundreds of other conductive points?

    You want to believe static is the culprit, fair enough. I think this dead horse has been flogged enough
     
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  7. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    I know, I was shocked that some had double clicking issues. I also found those springs by searching for M305.

    So if your M705 works fine and my M305 works fine, but some others hasn't gone as well. So I got a theory. I've seen this happen all of the time. Engineering will provide purchasing with the list of parts that manufacturing will need to assemble the devices with the bare minimum specs that is acceptable. Purchasing will purchase parts from various sources. Maybe one source has switches that won't fail. While another source may supply a cheaper version of the switch. And bean counters tend to go with the cheaper ones. Also they may have to go with the cheaper ones if the other source is currently out of them.

    Actually I did take one of them apart and yes, same kind of switch. The two others I don't think I had taken apart yet.

    I don't have any Razer mice, so I don't know.

    I toss them in a drawer and one day I wonder how they are doing. Fire them up and they work perfectly for a time until they start double clicking once again.

    If the switch was always the issue, why does tossing them in a drawer for weeks make the problem go away? I also had some mice it was the left button and some were the right button. There are lots of unanswered questions here that people need answers to. So it seems to me that I should start putting in my own switches and see if that cures the problem for good. ;)
     
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  8. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    They looked the same or they are the same as in the same brand and model. Huana, Omron and Kailh switches, just to name a few, all look the same.

    What does tossing them into a drawer do and how are you validating that double clicks are no longer an issue (at least at that moment).

    Just tried an old Razer mouse that I haven’t used in probably 6 or 7 years. It was replaced due to a double click problem. No idea why I haven’t tossed it. Just plugged it in and conducted 5 separate double click tests as per this link https://codepen.io/blink172/pen/vERyxK

    Test 1: double click after 4 consecutive clicks.

    Test 2: 200 clicks. No double click.

    Test 3: 3 double clicks after 12 consecutive clicks.

    Test 4: Again, 200 clicks, no double click

    Test 5: 2 double clicks out of 15 consecutive clicks.

    So if not using the mouse for a selected duration temporarily fixes the problem, then surely 6 years should have resulted in a more successful test than above. The test also demonstrates how sporadic the problem can be (at least for this particular mouse), which could easily result in someone not immediately noticing the problem and writing off any abnormal incidents as human error.
     
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  9. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    It has been awhile since I had them apart. But I would say they they looked the same.

    I could only speculate what tossing them in the drawer does.

    Did you look at that script? It is biased against seasoned gamers! Look here with that Anywhere MX I just pulled out the drawer.

    2020-02-21_200508.png

    Out of 1001 clicks, it recorded 8 double clicks. And that list of numbers is the seconds between clicks. And looking at the script, any click within 80ms from another one is flagged as a double click. But we are gamers and are used to multi-clicking very fast. And apparently I can click faster than 80ms 8 out of 1001 times.

    Knowing this, I changed my clicking speed to just 4 times per second. Same mouse that has been sitting in the drawer and now watch.

    2020-02-21_201059.png

    1001 clicks and every click was greater than 80ms between clicks. It records zero double clicks. Now if I use this mouse for a few weeks or maybe a few months, it will start double clicking on me once again.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  10. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    The switch can only act so fast from its “off” position to its “on” position – the developer felt 80 milliseconds was the appropriate number to detect a double click. Using a lever, I cannot click faster than ~140 milliseconds. Using my finger, I am roughly 160 to 170 milliseconds on average.

    Below is clicking in roughly 2 second durations. 2 double clicks registered at 51 milliseconds and 40 milliseconds. The click counter says 9 clicks, but I only pressed the button 7 times.

    2 second duration between clicks is far from being a seasoned gamer

    double click.jpg
     
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  11. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    Interesting Punk In Drublic that we get different results. I just pulled out one of those cheap Chinese gaming mice (Zerodate X70) from the drawer that has an internal battery. I clicked that one 1001 times and that one recorded zero double clicks too. But I know if I use it for a few months, it will start double clicking once again.
     
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  12. BillW50

    BillW50 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2014
    US
    Morning Coffee 498.jpg
     
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  13. tiburonfirst

    tiburonfirst They call me 'Tibs" Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 23, 2010
    back home
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 11
  14. dwcraig1

    dwcraig1 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    The below diagram shows how the switch operates. Regardless of the amount of external force, as long as it meets the minimal amount required to activate the switch, the rest of the operation relies on the proper tension between the two springs. This results in a very consistent action in a very inconsistent environment (mashing the mouse button) and removes many human variances from the equation, hard click, soft click, finger position etc.

    It is a known fact that metal can fatigue when stressed. In this case the fatigue causes a tension mismatch between the 2 springs where one can cause the other to behave erratically, thus cause a double click. The external force is still part of the equation thus still influences how the switch behaves. Which displays why the problem can be sporadic

    The below video shows this in action. With the faulty switch, as external force varies, the switch makes multiple contacts with the on position. With the working switch, as the external force varies, the switch remains on until the external force meets the minimal requirement to allow the springs to snap the contact back to the off position.

    A mouse sitting in a drawer cannot apply any kind of temporary fix to this problem. It is impossible.

    expla_5.jpg
     
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  16. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    No explanation to your tests. I cannot see what has taken place, nor do I know if your external force has influenced the outcome. The program should register 1 time for 1 click. If a double click takes place, the program will register 2+ times per single human input. From what I have seen, these additional times have always been <80 ms. Open to the possibility you exceeded this time threshold with a single click, but did you confirm this as a super human rapid click or a double click that registered more than 1 time for a single click?

    Given external force is still an influence I am also open to achieving 1001 clicks and not experiencing a single double click. Above I achieved 200 consecutive clicks without a double click mishap. And did so twice. So it is obvious the conditions for a failure can be quite unique.

    Instead of trying to achieve 1001 clicks rapidly, use the program with random duration's, frequency and applied force all while taking note that your human input matches the click counter. Should you experience a double click, the program will register 2 or more times for that single human input, and the click counter will reflect this.
     
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  17. TrollDragon

    TrollDragon ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Dec 3, 2014
    NS, Canada
    Clicky clicky boom boom.... :lol:
    Holy Clicky.jpg
     
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  18. TrollDragon

    TrollDragon ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Dec 3, 2014
    NS, Canada
    A few minutes with the solder sucker and these fix up your clickies...
    s-l500.jpg
     
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    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    The Japanese Omron seems to be a popular choice for those who wish to put forth the efforts to replace a faulty switch. But they too fall victim to premature switch failure. The Asus Gladius uses Japanese Omron switches, but has employed a socket for easy replacement. No solder sucker required.
     
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  20. TrollDragon

    TrollDragon ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Dec 3, 2014
    NS, Canada
    All switches eventually have issues, cool feature on the Gladius.
     
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