there is paranoia out there on both sides; cops will see guns where there aren't any and shoot way too fast. sure wish there were a way to get ALL guns off the streets, including those of the police force, but it is what it is
there is paranoia out there on both sides; cops will see guns where there aren't any and shoot way too fast. sure wish there were a way to get ALL guns off the streets, including those of the police force, but it is what it is
If you follow the rules I gaurentee you won't get shot by a honest cop doing his job. Reaching for stuff in your car before the cop arrives at the window hiding your hands not turning on the dome light at night. Does nothing but turn up the Rut Ro factor for the police officer. Add to that a confrontational attitude and not complying doesn't help either. Keep your hands on top of the stearing wheel fingers open and politely let the officer know exactly what pocket your license is in. Let them know the registration and insurance paper work is at. By all means I'd you have a ccwp let them know where the gun is and don't do anything fast and without being told to. Pretty simple actually. Oh yeah turn the radio off.
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take another look at your post, iceman! do you really believe that deviating from your above-described protocol is enough justification to kill somebody? i can't wrap my head around that - maybe it's my european background.
people do stupid things under stress all the time but why should that lead to a death sentence? that's worse than living in a police state, imo
people do stupid things under stress all the time but why should that lead to a death sentence? that's worse than living in a police state, imo
No, it doesnt "justify" shooting anyone, its just called self-preservation, a human instinct. If I am a cop, I have a right to get scared when someone reaches quickly into their pocket, and I have a right to defend myself. Hell, even in private life, if I feel my life is being threatened, the other guy better look the hell out. Fight or flight, and cops are trained not to go the "flight" route.take another look at your post, iceman! do you really believe that deviating from your above-described protocol is enough justification to kill somebody? i can't wrap my head around that - maybe it's my european background.
people do stupid things under stress all the time but why should that lead to a death sentence? that's worse than living in a police state, imo
Now, it is sad as hell that someone got shot over a Vamo. But remember BJ, he used to joke about his Vamo scaring off crooks because they thought it was a gun. From the photo I saw, the guy standing the way he was, holding a Vamo like device, in the split seconds you have to make a decision, I cannot honestly say I would not have pulled the trigger myself.
I can only imagine the grief on both sides of the coin.
Tibs, I understand your viewpoint, but (there's always a but) unless and until you've been there and done that it is very difficult to understand the risks and dangers that even a "simple" traffic stop can present, let alone one when there is a combative or obstinate attitude involved. I never was a cop, but I have worked with many and performed many of the functions, including ccw and open carry, and it is a whole different world that is hard to understand unless you've been in it. Some of my cop friend got injured seriously during "routine" traffic stops.
That one in California was unfortunate, but the person who was shot was showing all the classic behavior that he was about to shoot the cops. They had no choice, even if someone said to them "he doesn't have a gun", how can they take that as true? It sure looked like he did. He was probably irrational when he did that, but it is not fair to expect a cop to be able to make that kind of instant diagnosis. What if he did have a gun?
Given the sheer number of interactions between police and the public, most of them criminal, it amazes me that there aren't more shootings by police. No training can ever eliminate the instinct of self preservation that every person, cops included, have. The need for stories by the media is another factor. A shooting is much more dramatic than the cop that saves someone. The breakdown of values in society (me-ism) is another problem. Blaming it on the police is taking a shortcut. They do make mistakes, but they are human and adrenalin is very powerful, and there are a few bad apples.
That one in California was unfortunate, but the person who was shot was showing all the classic behavior that he was about to shoot the cops. They had no choice, even if someone said to them "he doesn't have a gun", how can they take that as true? It sure looked like he did. He was probably irrational when he did that, but it is not fair to expect a cop to be able to make that kind of instant diagnosis. What if he did have a gun?
Given the sheer number of interactions between police and the public, most of them criminal, it amazes me that there aren't more shootings by police. No training can ever eliminate the instinct of self preservation that every person, cops included, have. The need for stories by the media is another factor. A shooting is much more dramatic than the cop that saves someone. The breakdown of values in society (me-ism) is another problem. Blaming it on the police is taking a shortcut. They do make mistakes, but they are human and adrenalin is very powerful, and there are a few bad apples.
i had to make a detour to google i imagine that the statistics are pretty accurate
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
so why do cops in other countries apparently lack a sense of self-preservation?
i imagine that the statistics are pretty accuratePolice in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
so why do cops in other countries apparently lack a sense of self-preservation?
What ever happened to shooting some one in the leg or shoulder?
Why is it all most all ways a fatal shot?
Why is it all most all ways a fatal shot?
and one country i'm familiar with
and i'm a little disappointed in germany's numbers
and i'm a little disappointed in germany's numbers
I dont have the answer for that, all I can say is that in this particular case, given what has been released publicly so far, I cant say I wouldnt have pulled the trigger myself.i had to make a detour to google
Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations
so why do cops in other countries apparently lack a sense of self-preservation?
Just a thought, Tibs, but maybe attitudes, on both sides, could be the problem. I'm not saying that cops are always right, I'm just saying until you've actually been there it's impossible to understand.
oh, i understand
i made the ill-informed decision years and years ago to drive an ice cream truck in harlem i know about adrenalin and self-preservation! and while cops are human they seem to be ill-equipped to handle situations over here
That can also indicate better behaved citizens.
Those statistics look pretty damning, I admit. I cant help but wonder how they stack up against violent crime per capita, could there be a similar correlation? I have no clue, just wondering if there is more than meets the eye.
I grew up in LA. When I was in my teens there was a string of cop killings there. The cops got VERY jumpy. Smart folks learned real quick to say "I am reaching for the glove compartment to get my registration" and move slowly when they did so. Not saying that it is right, but I cant say that I blame the cops for being jumpy either when their co-workers start getting offed.
I went through Harlem once back in the 80s, that was enough, I would not have gone back there a second time unarmed.
Self preservation is a strong instinct in a healthy person........
I went through Harlem once back in the 80s, that was enough, I would not have gone back there a second time unarmed.
Self preservation is a strong instinct in a healthy person........
I have a buddy who is a cop in Poland, I can honestly agree he is much better trained than the average officer here.
Looking at that photo, said to have been taken before the police fired, they held back from firing and fired well after it was justified. As soon as that barrel is pointed at you it takes a fraction of a second to fire a shot. I'm surprised they waited until he was pointing at the officer, usually they won't wait until a gun is pointed at them because they know from past experience that could be too late to defend yourself.
Search "the 21 foot rule", look at the videos on youtube of how fast a person with a knife can attack at the distance of 21 feet and how low the chances are to even draw and get off just one shot, if they are lucky enough to fire one shot. Even if they get a shot off most likely it's not going to stop them in their tracks because they have momentum, so even if hit they will likely still make contact. It takes the average person just 1.5 seconds to close a 21 foot gap from standing still, an officer has to recognize the treat and react in less time. Often an officer has to make a decision in just one or two seconds, that's why the yell repeated commands, it's a warning to obey or face the consequences. Just obey what an officer tells you, that's it, not complicated. If you look at all of these shooting that make the news, what they all have in common, the "victim" didn't obey commands, every damn one.
Instead of obeying the commands from the officers this guy pulled a vamo or what ever it was from his pocket, put both hands on it and took a shooting stance. It's sad, but I'm sorry, his death is not the fault of anyone but himself.
Search "the 21 foot rule", look at the videos on youtube of how fast a person with a knife can attack at the distance of 21 feet and how low the chances are to even draw and get off just one shot, if they are lucky enough to fire one shot. Even if they get a shot off most likely it's not going to stop them in their tracks because they have momentum, so even if hit they will likely still make contact. It takes the average person just 1.5 seconds to close a 21 foot gap from standing still, an officer has to recognize the treat and react in less time. Often an officer has to make a decision in just one or two seconds, that's why the yell repeated commands, it's a warning to obey or face the consequences. Just obey what an officer tells you, that's it, not complicated. If you look at all of these shooting that make the news, what they all have in common, the "victim" didn't obey commands, every damn one.
Instead of obeying the commands from the officers this guy pulled a vamo or what ever it was from his pocket, put both hands on it and took a shooting stance. It's sad, but I'm sorry, his death is not the fault of anyone but himself.
lol, willy! guess england hasn't heard about that rule!
''Knife violence is a big problem in England, yet British police have fatally shot only one person wielding a knife since 2008 – a hostage-taker. By comparison, my calculations based on data compiled by fatalencounters.org and the Washington Post show that US police have fatally shot more than 575 people allegedly wielding blades and other such weapons just in the years since 2013.''
Why do American cops kill so many compared to European cops?
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