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Exploding mods: the feedback thread

Discussion in 'Forum How-To's' started by rolygate, Mar 9, 2010.

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  1. tribalmasters

    tribalmasters Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 19, 2008
    United Kingdom
    What about a mod running on Nimh cells?
  2. MastiffMike

    MastiffMike The Spotted Tongue! Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 9, 2009
    Dogville Estate
    Maybe a silly thought but....

    In addition to a lot of the previous suggestions (i.e. Approved Supplier changed, Warnings, Different TOS, etc.) why not change what's required to become a Supplier?

    Manufacturers/Suppliers are ultimately liable for their products, why not require THEM to have agreements and/or warnings on their site? Maybe even require them to have their customers sign an agreement before purchasing?

    It seems to me that it's reasonable to expect Suppliers that want to post on the forum to meet a set of minimum consumer educational requirements prior to approval. ECF could even "spot check" already approved suppliers to ensure continued compliance.

    I imagine that some suppliers might not like it, but then maybe their interests aren't inline with ECF. Safety is very important and most suppliers would agree.

    I come to ECF to educate myself (and for a little fun some times!). I don't want anything censored (other than grossly unacceptable, indecent human behavior). For me, it's the free flow of ideas, viewpoints, and opinions that makes this (and other forums) valuble. If that freedom is regulated in any way then it starts to lose value.

    Just my $.01 (it's late so maybe it's worth even less!)
  3. ZambucaLu

    ZambucaLu ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Nov 23, 2008
    Central NY, USA many great responses! Thanks folks! :)

    I don't know how many modders or suppliers are reading here but I wonder something. Aren't THEY concerned about the legal ramifications of a possible lawsuit due to an exploding device? I mean, if a user is ever seriously hurt, the first thing an attorney is going to ask is 'Who made it and where did you buy it?' I would think the majority of modders and those suppliers that sell them could not stand up to the possibility of such financial cost/loss, if it ever went that way.

  4. Fruits

    Fruits Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2009
    United Kingdom
    I think modders should move away from the, no wires, no solder etc that people think is a good idea. I would have thought devices should be made with features that shut down the device if an atty shorts. Like a certain device is designed for the spring to fail which cuts off the circuit so the battery doesn't keep going. You may have to send the device in for repair but at least it has some sort of protection for the user. Its not happened to me or most others but it could. I've heard of a few cases where users try out all there old atties they have stashed away in a drawer, mostly 801's I believe and faulty atties short and the device cuts out.
    If the ecig doesn't cut out like this you could be in all sorts of trouble. Im no expert obviously but it seems the way to go for me. Start with the ecig and spend less time talking about protected vs unprotected batts. People who buy mods should first have a pretty good idea about batteries, its there responsibility to learn the risks instead of just going out and buying the latest HV device, so its a good idea to have a few links and info. Any battery can have problems if its used incorrectly and it will still be used incorrectly, there a bit more to it than just linking to the chargers and batts that are recommended by the makers or forum people.
    Forums are just a load of people giving there opinions, not all will be correct no matter how long you've been a member, or moderator. I see people giving out wrong advice all the time here and its picked up by people and handed down to the next lot who join and so on. Who wants to class themselves as an expert? certainly not me, im far from it. Must they be right? of course not, many of the mod makers would probably say they were not experts. Just use a bit of common sense and take time to learn about mods and batteries before buying them, dont just believe what you read on a forum.
    Stacking 2 batts in a device with an atomizer that is being overworked by 75-100% is bound to create issues.
    Nothing will ever be idiot proof, but people selling mods have an obligation to make the device as idiot proof as possible if they are selling to the mass market.
    Im still looking for a HV device that has some decent safety features. If a mod maker comes up with this it would sell very very well.
  5. SudokuGal

    SudokuGal Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2009
    See the text in bold: when I first read Roly's "proposal" this is what alarmed me the most. You're quite right that some readers, especially newbies, will consider reviewers with a following, ECF staff and moderators, vendors, or frequent posters as EXPERTS!!! Seriously, what makes any of those people especially qualified?

    This is the "slippery slope" I referred to in an earlier post on this topic. What would be the qualifications for "said" expert? If a group from here wants to spearhead such an effort that results in an INDEPENDENT group of verifiable authorities go for it! That would be quite welcomed.

    Somehow ECF's concern about their own liability and the safety of the mods have become entwined, when they should be treated as separate but related issues. I am glad to see this kind of debate going on though.

  6. hifistud

    hifistud Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 25, 2009
    Sunderland, UK
    What this thread highlights is exactly why regulators want to get involved, what they see as "abuse" of e-cigs (6v systems with 150mg juice, anybody??) and the whole legal tangle that ECF may have unleashed upon itself.

    Firstly, if ECF is "approving" suppliers, they are tacitly adopting a regulatory and promotional stance all in one little word - the significance is that ECF "approves" not only the vendor, but also his wares - and by corollary, does not approve of certain other vendors or their wares. It is, therefore, rather difficult for ECF to claim common carrier status, and thereby disclaim any liability.

    I really think it's well past high time ECF bit the bullet and sprung some money on a top class legal team to get themselves sorted out - I have never liked the "approved" thing at all - to me it's always been a revenue generation thing and intrinsically unfair on "unapproved" suppliers who are honest and decent but whose faces appear not to fit.
  7. PlanetScribbles

    PlanetScribbles Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 3, 2009
    Londinium, Brittania
    I've wondered this myself. Any problem with a mod that runs 3x AAA cells for example? What is with the preference for lithium ion anyway?
    I guess, convenience?
  8. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    Just a quick note on the "approved" nomenclature - it was always meant to indicate that we were happy that the suppliers had taken steps to ensure that their promotional material was not misleading or contained any health/cessation claims, and thus we were happy for them to have a forum here.

    It was not meant to imply any guarantee as to the safety or quality of any suppliers products.

    What the legal standing is here, I don't know. Like Roly said, it's being checked out.

    My primary concern is that we figure out a way, together, to make sure that anyone using a mod is aware of the possible dangers, and can take steps to avoid them.
  9. The Wiz

    The Wiz ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Whiskeyville USA
    Lu....If I were a supplier who made and sold Mods that had the possibility of exploding I would be terrified right now!! I seriously believe it's them who would be under-fire with any legal responsibility. Whats nice to see is that several of the Modders here are making adjustments to their devices to improve saftey and prevent further incidents.Big props to those who are already reacting!

    :)The Wiz!
  10. Lightgeoduck

    Lightgeoduck Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 7, 2009
    jp(APO)Camp Z us
    Well I can say one thing for sure if people weren't aware they ought to be now.... since there are 3+ threads discussing the same thing

    Imagine how slow information would travel with out the interwebs
  11. anim8r

    anim8r Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 11, 2009
    In the same manner that hammer manufacturers aren't sued for people constantly crushing their thumbs. Hammer manufacturers need only prove that they have minimized the risks to their consumers by using the best materials possible (splinter-less handles, shatterproof steel, etc.) and the use of proper instructions and warnings as needed.

    The "mod" device would have to be proven to be defective. This in itself could be very difficult.

    Lawsuits aren't automatically awarded to people because they were injured.

    Also, it would be very difficult to prove it was the device and not the atomizer or battery that failed.

    My bet would be on the battery first, and then either the atomizer or the mod itself. Since batteries are known to explode in their own chargers and other electrical devices, modders are almost guaranteed a position where they can point to a bigger (and proven) villian in this fight.

    Also, money would be awarded based on several factors, for example; were the makers of mods negligent in the design and testing phase, etc.

    And then there's the money factor. Probably the biggest protection for mod makers is undoubtedly the fact that they are still mom and pop shops. Lawyers are in it for the money. They aren't about to chase after a company whose net worth wouldn't buy them their next lunch.

    When modder's start bringing in tens of million$, well, then they would definitely become a target and need to be prepared to prove to judge and jury that they did everything possible with their products to minimize risks to consumers.
  12. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    Hey, Lu's back!


    Your safety feature list is good. it's the sort of thing industry members should be discussing. A reverse polarity diode is a good idea as well, hadn't thought of that. It will result in a lot of returns for repair but I guess that's better than the alternative. Maybe there's a protection circuit for that now instead of a diode, I'm a bit out of date.

    Right. A reasonable approach is best and I'm beginning to see that gentle persuasion combined with some sort of 'carrot' / benefit would be the right way to go.

    Unfortunately you are both right I think. Sorry 'Duck!

    Yes, this is an interesting point.

    The fact is that ECF is very different from almost all other forums - we have two main usergroups instead of the more usual single group: the Members and the Suppliers. Because of the unusual integration of the Suppliers into the forum, it could be argued that ECF has a closer relationship with them than the normal website / advertiser arrangement. Statements that ECF is simply a normal site with normal advertisers are not necessarily correct. It might be said we are closer to product vendors than other sites may be. Indeed, one group might be seen as our commercial partners, and this is certainly a source of concern in the current climate.

    I think it fair to say that we will not be considering offering extended facilities in the future to Suppliers who do not take safety concerns seriously. Industry standards need raising and we look to responsible Suppliers to take the lead here.

    This is a good point but it seems the mod failure incidents were more serious.

    Yes, it would be nice to do that but that is not allowed in any other arena, so it is unlikely to be acceptable in the ecigarette field. Products need to have basic safety standards and not be intrinsically unsafe, and there is a duty to inform buyers. We do the informing and the manufacturers do the safety - or have government do it for them.

    I hope so too. The debate will ultimately determine the outcome because if we knew exactly what was needed we wouldn't debate it. Already we have seen that blanket bans or whatever would be unacceptable and that persuasion is a better option, combined perhaps with better facilities for the better-performing.

    Thank you for your support. Right now we're fine, in the future we hope to start raising funds for industry research and safety projects so your help will be much appreciated then.

    Yes, something along these lines is needed perhaps. Certainly, in the future we won't be allocating a sub-forum to Suppliers with poor safety standards. A compliance procedure is being looked at for that. Only trouble is that enforcing reasonable standards on existing Suppliers is a tough call - but we might have to go there.

    Exactly. Selling a mod with no safety features seems to me like selling a car with all-round drum brakes and no seatbelts. That was OK twenty years back but this is the 21st century. You should build a product that as far as is reasonably possible protects the user from operator error, as that is the socially responsible thing to do apart from anything else. If it costs $20 more, then that is the price of doing business in a civilized society.

    Yeah, know the feeling. I just had a custom 5-volt Altoid box mod made because of this. The guy who builds them knows what he's doing and it has a kill switch, 801 atty, 5v regulator etc. But there will be major commercial players in this market soon and they will probably start out right. With luck, safety features will be a top selling point, not rock-bottom price or shiny looks.

    I believe you are right, the mod industry (and perhaps the whole ecig industry) appears to need a group to look at these kinds of issues. As you say, it needs to be independent or nothing would be achieved. As far as mods go, modders / electrical engineers / safety engineers / product safety advisers look to be the right materials for that group. For an industry manufacturers and suppliers group, the requirements would be different.

    ECF wants no representation on either, our viewpoint is that we are simply tired of the ongoing cottage industry mentality of commercial participants. When will they learn that to survive they need to work together?

    It's a complex situation that will eventually get worked out. To me it is unexplainable how some manufacturers seem completely unaware of product safety issues. Hopefully things will improve.

    We'll sort it out. As regards revenue generation, that's a criticism levelled at us regularly by the envious and just as often refuted with the facts. We turn down as much money as we make because its origins or terms aren't acceptable. Every business has its own moral compass and we're more than happy with ours. When you start to see commercial pressures here that are not acceptable, then you'll know we lost it. Until then, be glad we know the right way to do things.

    As you may know, the facilities afforded to suppliers here are completely free and therefore we have no pressure on us in any way to comply with their requirements instead of what we feel to be right. Advertisers and a small group with extra facilities afforded them are the people who pay for your site.

    The 'faces that don't fit' here are probably those who, on the day, appeared not to comply with our requirements. We try and get suppliers to agree with our policies on what is or is not acceptable in the marketing, safety and conduct areas, if they can't agree then we are probably not a good match.

  13. The Wiz

    The Wiz ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Whiskeyville USA
    Unfortunatly lightgeoduck when you put Exploding and Chuck together you are going to make some headlines.As CaSHMeRE posted previously in this thread,I personally am more concerned about what's in the e-liquid I vape daily and what the long term results of inhaling it may be.

    :)The Wiz!
  14. Lightgeoduck

    Lightgeoduck Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 7, 2009
    jp(APO)Camp Z us
    @Roly thanks for the correction on understanding... but there are alot of posts to quote and reply so I give you an A for effort

    That is a valid concern as well... and we know the discovery of that information is in the works by both ends of the spectrum... I would like to believe that it is the least of two "evils" and so far I have personal results that defend my belief

    Of course there are precautions set on claims with out data here as well

    of course that is another topic of its own.
  15. The Wiz

    The Wiz ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Whiskeyville USA
    I agree.....I call it being able to tie my shoes without huffing and puffing....and of course that's a topic for another day!!

    :)The Wiz!
  16. Katmar

    Katmar Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 19, 2009
    Pittsburgh, Pa
    I would just like to thank the wonderfully thoughtful and intelligent people posting in this thread. It is because of folks like you that people like myself have the advantages of knowing every aspect of this industry is being studied and worked on to improve safety for all. You are all to be applauded.
    Thank you for caring so much and working so hard.
  17. Hellen A. Handbasket

    Hellen A. Handbasket Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran


    These same issues are happening on flashlight forums. Like us, they also have two main usergroups (modded flashlights/makers/suppliers and the people who purchase and use them).

    I just read a thread on CandlePowerForum where a flashlight is designed to use EIGHT stacked in tandem 18650 batteries (yeah, 8!!). There was an explosion reported (with pictures) in that unit was pretty incredible. There are other threads that talk about people having house fires while charging batteries, flashlights that turn on in people's pockets or on their car seat, etc...

    They have an area in their forums where battery info and "Poofs" are reported to educate people. Something like that would be good on ECF. The title is an attention getter: Smoke and Fire, Hot Cells and Close Calls - The dangerous side of batteries - CandlePowerForums

    This is the sticky that sits in that forum area Welcome. Before posting, READ THIS!!! - CandlePowerForums

    RC forums also have these same issues: Batteries and Chargers - RC Groups

    Their sticky: Complete Guide to Lithium Polymer Batteries and LiPo Failure Reports - RC Groups (which keeps account of incidents/user error/links to posts)

    I'd think there might be some good information at CPF and RCGroups for ECF Admin. to read to see how they handle their issues to inform and help protect members?

    And, a last note... ALL Battery companies should be doing this:
    Info on Lithium Ion batteries clearly on their site - Rechargeable batteries & Chargers - Li-ion Battery

    Perhaps those that make/sell mods can do something similar, requiring customers to read and agree before placing an order and/or ECF can provide a pop up that requires membership to read it before access to the supplier's forum?

    Vape safely!!
  18. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    Now that is interesting! Will look...
  19. asidrave

    asidrave Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 21, 2009
    New Jersey
    @ Hellen


    that is exactly what is needed. noone here should think that we, members and suppliersof ECF, are the pioneers in mods or modifications of existing products. i say that because im sure many dont know or even heard of flashlight mods or RC mods.

    anyone who has any concerns should visit those forums and get better educated on what goes into a mod and what modders do to get the results they want. i say that so noone thinks that issues such as this only exist here.
  20. RjG

    RjG Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 16, 2008
    Edmonton AB Canada
    As a modder, I'll post a different point of view...

    If ECF has "approved" and "non-approved" mods, and an "approved" mod blows up, then you've assigned yourself even MORE responsibility for the incident.

    There have been several factory e-cigs that have gone nuclear as well, not just mods. There is an inherent danger in using lithium technology, period. It's a necessary evil, to get a fast charging battery with a lot of capacity in a small package.

    Mods SHOULD be vented, and batteries SHOULD be protected with a overcharge/over-discharge/short circuit PCB.
    This doesn't guarantee they won't go nuclear at all, the cells can still fail... but it certainly cuts the odds down of it happening to you.

    Put up a disclaimer, with recommendations if you want... but that's as far as it needs to go.

    <edit> ( I like Hellen's suggestion as well)
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