Hey, Lu's back!
@BuzzKill
Your safety feature list is good. it's the sort of thing industry members should be discussing. A reverse polarity diode is a good idea as well, hadn't thought of that. It will result in a lot of returns for repair but I guess that's better than the alternative. Maybe there's a protection circuit for that now instead of a diode, I'm a bit out of date.
@SheerLuckHolmes
There is a reason that ECF has become the largest and fastest growing e-cig forum. Keep doing what you are and have been doing, it doesn't seem to be broke, don't fix it to death.
Right. A reasonable approach is best and I'm beginning to see that gentle persuasion combined with some sort of 'carrot' / benefit would be the right way to go.
@anim8r
[re. lightgeoduck] I don't think that was the implication at all. I think he was stating that this forum is a great source of safety information concerning e-cigs. I also would not have known there were exploding batteries if it wasn't for this forum.
@kristin
[re. lightgeoduck]
I really think the warning is already out.. and no liability should be held.... If it wasn't for the forum... no one would have heard about the incident and got educated on the matter
A valid point and completely misunderstood by Roly.
Unfortunately you are both right I think. Sorry 'Duck!
Roly said that they cannot "disclaim liability" yet there is so far no evidence that ECF actually HAS any liability in the event of an accident.
Yes, this is an interesting point.
The fact is that ECF is very different from almost all other forums - we have two main usergroups instead of the more usual single group: the Members and the Suppliers. Because of the unusual integration of the Suppliers into the forum, it could be argued that ECF has a closer relationship with them than the normal website / advertiser arrangement. Statements that ECF is simply a normal site with normal advertisers are not necessarily correct. It might be said we are closer to product vendors than other sites may be. Indeed, one group might be seen as our commercial partners, and this is certainly a source of concern in the current climate.
I think it fair to say that we will not be considering offering extended facilities in the future to Suppliers who do not take safety concerns seriously. Industry standards need raising and we look to responsible Suppliers to take the lead here.
@dk2
I posted in another thread that an e-cigarette of a coworker which was manufactured by a major company and not modded overheated and discharged, so I don't see how ECF can hold modders at fault when there are cases of regular ecigs being just as dangerous.
This is a good point but it seems the mod failure incidents were more serious.
Let the manufacturers and users be held accountable for their own actions.
Yes, it would be nice to do that but that is not allowed in any other arena, so it is unlikely to be acceptable in the ecigarette field. Products need to have basic safety standards and not be intrinsically unsafe, and there is a duty to inform buyers. We do the informing and the manufacturers do the safety - or have government do it for them.
@DonDaBoomVape
I hope that the tactics used by ECF will be rooted primarily in persuasion rather than censorship or prohibition.
I hope so too. The debate will ultimately determine the outcome because if we knew exactly what was needed we wouldn't debate it. Already we have seen that blanket bans or whatever would be unacceptable and that persuasion is a better option, combined perhaps with better facilities for the better-performing.
@Katattack
I for one would be more than willing to not only purchase a normal "support ecf" membership but also make a donation in addition towards speaking with legal counsel. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Thank you for your support. Right now we're fine, in the future we hope to start raising funds for industry research and safety projects so your help will be much appreciated then.
@MastiffMike
Manufacturers/Suppliers are ultimately liable for their products, why not require THEM to have agreements and/or warnings on their site? Maybe even require them to have their customers sign an agreement before purchasing?
It seems to me that it's reasonable to expect Suppliers that want to post on the forum to meet a set of minimum consumer educational requirements prior to approval. ECF could even "spot check" already approved suppliers to ensure continued compliance.
Yes, something along these lines is needed perhaps. Certainly, in the future we won't be allocating a sub-forum to Suppliers with poor safety standards. A compliance procedure is being looked at for that. Only trouble is that enforcing reasonable standards on existing Suppliers is a tough call - but we might have to go there.
Nothing will ever be idiot proof, but people selling mods have an obligation to make the device as idiot proof as possible if they are selling to the mass market.
Exactly. Selling a mod with no safety features seems to me like selling a car with all-round drum brakes and no seatbelts. That was OK twenty years back but this is the 21st century. You should build a product that as far as is reasonably possible protects the user from operator error, as that is the socially responsible thing to do apart from anything else. If it costs $20 more, then that is the price of doing business in a civilized society.
I'm still looking for a HV device that has some decent safety features. If a mod maker comes up with this it would sell very very well.
Yeah, know the feeling. I just had a custom 5-volt Altoid box mod made because of this. The guy who builds them knows what he's doing and it has a kill switch, 801 atty, 5v regulator etc. But there will be major commercial players in this market soon and they will probably start out right. With luck, safety features will be a top selling point, not rock-bottom price or shiny looks.
@SudokuGal
This is the "slippery slope" I referred to in an earlier post on this topic. What would be the qualifications for "said" expert? If a group from here wants to spearhead such an effort that results in an INDEPENDENT group of verifiable authorities go for it! That would be quite welcomed.
I believe you are right, the mod industry (and perhaps the whole ecig industry) appears to need a group to look at these kinds of issues. As you say, it needs to be independent or nothing would be achieved. As far as mods go, modders / electrical engineers / safety engineers / product safety advisers look to be the right materials for that group. For an industry manufacturers and suppliers group, the requirements would be different.
ECF wants no representation on either, our viewpoint is that we are simply tired of the ongoing cottage industry mentality of commercial participants. When will they learn that to survive they need to work together?
Somehow ECF's concern about their own liability and the safety of the mods have become entwined, when they should be treated as separate but related issues. I am glad to see this kind of debate going on though.
It's a complex situation that will eventually get worked out. To me it is unexplainable how some manufacturers seem completely unaware of product safety issues. Hopefully things will improve.
@hifistud
I really think it's well past high time ECF bit the bullet and sprung some money on a top class legal team to get themselves sorted out - I have never liked the "approved" thing at all - to me it's always been a revenue generation thing and intrinsically unfair on "unapproved" suppliers who are honest and decent but whose faces appear not to fit.
We'll sort it out. As regards revenue generation, that's a criticism levelled at us regularly by the envious and just as often refuted with the facts. We turn down as much money as we make because its origins or terms aren't acceptable. Every business has its own moral compass and we're more than happy with ours. When you start to see commercial pressures here that are not acceptable, then you'll know we lost it. Until then, be glad we know the right way to do things.
As you may know, the facilities afforded to suppliers here are completely free and therefore we have no pressure on us in any way to comply with their requirements instead of what we feel to be right. Advertisers and a small group with extra facilities afforded them are the people who pay for your site.
The 'faces that don't fit' here are probably those who, on the day, appeared not to comply with our requirements. We try and get suppliers to agree with our policies on what is or is not acceptable in the marketing, safety and conduct areas, if they can't agree then we are probably not a good match.
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