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Exploding mods: the feedback thread

Discussion in 'Forum How-To's' started by rolygate, Mar 9, 2010.

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  1. mace bewley

    mace bewley Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 11, 2009
    Rogers AR
    Wiz my old friend,

    You and Steve could not be more right about the liquid. I am not so worried about what is in it (due to the fact of after a year of vaping I feel better than I have in years), but the fact that we are seeing such HIGH mg of it being made avalible. IMHO 48mg should be just fine for most applications, but when you start seeing it in the 100's that is just asking for trouble.
     
  2. kristin

    kristin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Just my thoughts, but if you find yourself needing more than 36mg of nicotine, it's not the nicotine you're craving - it's the other tobacco alkaloids. If that is the case, you should suppliment the ecig with snus instead of upping the nicotine mgs. My husband was up to 36 mg and once he started using 2-3 snus a day, he easily got down to 12mg liquid in his ecig and was finally able to quit smoking.
     
  3. pianoguy

    pianoguy Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Nov 4, 2009
    Apple Valley, MN
    I hope the ECF can find a simple solution to remove itself from any question of liability. Some great suggestions have been made here with regard to methods for making members more aware of potential safety issues. That said, humans have the capacity to be arrogant, ignorant, lazy, careless, reckless or downright stupid at times, and there is no cure for that. I think members here have a significant influence on each other, in terms of opinion and shared experiences. I would hope that the membership takes that influence seriously when it comes to promoting safety with these devices.
     
  4. d4rk3

    d4rk3 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 29, 2009
    QFT. 10char
     
  5. raqball

    raqball Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 22, 2010
    California
    It appears to me that the ECF, for some reason, is attacking and singling out mods....

    Mass produced devices cause far more problems than mods... Mass produced devices, especially those with the microphone in them, have caused far more issues than mods have... They activate on their own causing burns, fires, ect but the ECF can care less about them even though IMHO they are far more dangerous...

    Next, if the ECF was really concerned with safety they should be putting pressure on the battery makers and sellers, not the modders... It's the batteries that explode, not the mod...

    Lastly, the real concern should really be juice.... Most juice comes from a communist county that really has no love for the USA or many western nations... In this era of terrorism, you have to ask yourself how easy it would be to poison juice and kill thousands with one swoop....

    If the ECF really cared about overall safety they would go after the root of the issues... The battery makers, the safety of the juice we inhale, and the microphoned batteries.... These are far more dangerous in my mind than a mod...

    You can make the safest device on the planet and it will not matter how safe it is if you put cheap, bad or poorly made products in it... There also is no cure for stupidity... If there is a way to cause the safest made thing on earth to blow up, some human will find a way to do it...

    It just appears to me that the ECF for some very, very odd reason is attacking mods when there are more very serious issues they should be addressing....

    My .02

    Kris
     
  6. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    raqball, the latest concern comes as a result of 3 separate reported incidents of mods combusting violently. In one case a user's jaw was broken - this just hasn't happened with regular e-cigs to my knowlege.

    It doesn't take a lot of thought to realise that the dangers of batteries exploding while contained withing a sealed metal tube are far greater than compared to regular e-cigs
     
  7. raqball

    raqball Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 22, 2010
    California
    I understand SJ.... But the incident with the Chuck was because the user charged non rechargeable batteries... I don't see how that is the mods fault... More of a knowledge issue as far as I can tell....

    I see e cigs / PV's having 4 parts... (Juice, Attomizers, Batteries, Battery Holders (mods or the actual battery casing in mass produced)

    In order of danger I think they fall as such...

    Most dangerous IMHO is juice
    2nd most dangerous is batteries
    3rd is Atomizers
    Last and probably the most safest of all the parts is the mod (it's only a tube) or the battery casing in mass produced..

    I do applaud the ECF wanting to make e cig use safer.... I am just under the opinion that juice and batteries should raise far more eyebrows than a tube...

    Also, there are many instances of PT buttons getting stuck and causing fires, auto batteries (with the microphones) staying on in pockets ect... and of manual battery switches getting stuck in the on position...

    Kris
     
  8. CellWho

    CellWho Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    Ontario, Canada
    I don't believe anyone is arguing about making the things we consume/use safer. The issue for me is ECFs desire to intervene and mandate a set of arbitrary rules (direct or via proxy).

    If you are so concerned about safety, than there are far more serious issues to be addressed than a few isolated cases of battery failures. How about high level nic juices, inhaling melted plastic from a cart, inhaling melted filler from a cart, burnt kr8 cartimizers, inhaling unknown chemicals from flavoring, standard battery issues discussed above, etc.

    Is ECF liable for all of those things as well? Are you worried about someone getting sick and suing you for anyone of those things? Why such an emphasis on mods? I appreciate the spectacular nature of a battery venting in a mod, but the liability is no greater. The forum does a great job of educating, and there can always be more. Let's focus on that instead of banning a device based on a set of rules outlined by people who have or could have a vested interest.

    "Yes, this is an interesting point.

    The fact is that ECF is very different from almost all other forums - we have two main usergroups instead of the more usual single group: the Members and the Suppliers. Because of the unusual integration of the Suppliers into the forum, it could be argued that ECF has a closer relationship with them than the normal website / advertiser arrangement. Statements that ECF is simply a normal site with normal advertisers are not necessarily correct. It might be said we are closer to product vendors than other sites may be. Indeed, one group might be seen as our commercial partners, and this is certainly a source of concern in the current climate. "


    RG you make a good point here. ECF has taken steps away from being just a forum that sells advertising space which makes a disclaimer more difficult. The strange thing is instead of pulling back from that position which would make a disclaimer easier, you are looking to dive deeper into it. I think this is your key issue. If ECF doesn't approve anything, then you are just a forum that sells advertising space and disclaiming liability has a simpler path.

    ECF has a commercial partner? Really, who is that?
     
  9. BuzzKill

    BuzzKill Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2009
    Central Coast Ca.
    By just making the staement that ECF has they have forced the hand of MFG's to improve their products ! , something that was not happening IMO ( well they got prettier ) .
    This is causing every modder to fix/improve/make safer their products , that is a good thing . As far as the ethics and what a forum should do that is not my area.

    The custom PV's WILL be better and safer in the future because of this move , maybe it was to just get their attention ?? who knows but IT WORKED !!
     
  10. The Wiz

    The Wiz ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Whiskeyville USA
    Mace....You and I are "Old School".....There was nothing higher than 36mg e-liquid when we started vaping.I had a urge due to curiosity to try 48mg awhile back....but never did.36mg has always been enough for me.I do balance it out with nasal snuff now so that curiosity never peaks again......100mg straight up....Forget it!!

    Right you are Kristin.....The nasal snuff I use off and on during the course of my day more than makes up for any alkaloids missing in my e-liquid.I can also balance out my e-liquid nicotine level.I generally range from 36mg to 0 nic depending on how much snuff I use.Suppliments such as snuff and snus have kept me clean from smoking for well over a year now!

    :)The Wiz!
     
  11. raqball

    raqball Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 22, 2010
    California
    Huh?

    I started vaping a year ago and there was higher than 36mg available then... It was scarce, but available...

    Kris
     
  12. martha1014

    martha1014 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2009
    Delhi, LA USA
    You need to make sure the ECF is incorporated. This will prevent the individual members especially the mod. from being sued personally. In this case only the corporation can be sued.
     
  13. Mac

    Mac Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    She never got any money and the case was thrown out on appeal. (it should have never got that far. if you spill hot coffee on yourself it's gonna burn)
     
  14. Lightgeoduck

    Lightgeoduck Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 7, 2009
    jp(APO)Camp Z us
    I would like to hope this thread is moving as forward as a community rather than backwards or in circles....

    I understand this is a touchy subject for most members here and as we all know there are alot of members....

    It looks like everything has been said that could be said... it looks like we are all responsible adults (well partial tongue in cheek :p ) and each side has legit concerns.

    I know how the govenment works especially while in the military.. if an incident occurs imediate knee jerk actions are taken to protect and to cover ones own ....

    yes the fear of liablity is understandable and the freedom of an open forum is understandable as well... as with everything a far right or far left approach will always fail one way or another....

    Lu way back (in forum time) mentioned "sue happy" and used a coffee reference,,, which by the way did not eliminate the sale of coffe.. but put warnings on the cups to let people know the coffee was hot...

    but that is beside the point.. I am sure Lu was just proving a point... anyway

    We could start listing everything in creation that has risks and we can list many logical concerns for concerning situations.... of course we can't protect all of the darwin awardees .BUT I think awareness is the only key concern.

    Education and Knowledge will make it right :D as long as it is properly absorbed.
     
  15. The Wiz

    The Wiz ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Whiskeyville USA
    raq....Might have been some 48mg available as early as last March....When I started vaping there were only a handfull of e-liquid suppliers at all...most only went as high as 36mg.....Forgot who had the 48mg first??

    :)The Wiz!(Sorry for the "off-topic" discussion)
     
  16. raqball

    raqball Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 22, 2010
    California
    Correct you may be Sir... Thats about when I started vaping and I do remember seeing some pretty strong stuff....

    Kris
     
  17. juicefreak

    juicefreak Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 15, 2009
    Oklahoma
    glad to hear it. that sounds a helluva lot more mature than 'don't tell us what to do on your forum'. that was nauseating bigtime. I would never throw my money at an arrogant vendor.

    i feel safer with commercial e-cigs because of the cut offs. yeah they fail, but they don't explode as far as i know.

    maybe require e-cig vendors to have their own liability insurance? i know i wouldn't hire anyone to work on my house without it, and i verify with their agent that it's been paid to date and in force. a little extreme, but you get the picture. why should the forum incur expenses that any manufacturer in this day and age should have as the cost of doing business.

    damn i didn't know someone's jaw was broken SJ? that's very sad. and without safeguards the e-cig industry just puts a huge bullseye on their head for government control. can't have your cake and eat it to.

    bottom line for me is product safety and testing.
     
  18. raqball

    raqball Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 22, 2010
    California
    A commercial e cig with a manual battery has no cut off and if the button gets activated or stuck in the on position......

    :evil:

    Kris
     
  19. JaYBoNeS

    JaYBoNeS Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 24, 2010
    Vancouver
    Liability?

    Should ECF be concerned about it? For sure. But just for mods? This whole site is made up of "approved suppliers" and the like, many of which I am sure don't even have a business licence, let alone high standards and rigorous testing of their products. And let's remember we're also talking also about trafficking of a poison in the mail from suppliers who, for the most part have no idea what their product is made up of.

    EDIT: I'd also like to add that, for the most part, the modders seem to have higher standards and better service than a lot of the more commercial stuff on here IMO.

    This issue is way bigger than a mod that exploded, and goes far deeper than that. If ECF had any real interest in making it's membership safer, they would have had higher standards to begin with, instead of merely reacting to some isolated cases which it believes may cause it to incur liability. Mods and members alike hand out medical advice that should come from a doctor as if they are qualified to do so, but this is not a liability concern. But, someone who has no experience in building electronic items happens to take some advice offered on this site and does themselves harm, then all of the sudden it's a liability issue.

    It's a double standard for sure. What does it take to be a supplier? Are there checks of business licenses and such? It doesn't seem so, based on the feedback in some threads. Some practices that would never be accepted by anyone buying anything online are accepted as okay on here. If I, as a consumer would have had to deal with some of the wait times and utter disregard for customer service that I have witnessed on some threads here, I would be screaming for the better business bureau. Yet ECF doesn't step in on this, even though it's more than likely one of their "approved suppliers."

    So ECF, if you are going to ban mods or make some steps here, you'd better be a lot better about being fair about it and look at the other things that could cause you to incur liability as well, if indeed that is what your concern really is. I seriously doubt that a mod exploding is the worst of any liability issue that may possibly arise from people taking any advice on this site and, on the contrary from what I have read, it's the advice that people chose not to take that actually caused the harm.


    Thanks

    JayBones
     
  20. Katattack

    Katattack Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 5, 2010
    FL
    Just a note JayBones most sole proprietorships or partnerships are not required to have business licenses.
     
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