External fuse for both overcurrent and reverse polarity protection with the DNA...

Status
Not open for further replies.

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
Not really sure, but don't think it's the trip time. Maybe the 4 terminals joined should be separated by an individual wire to each of the 2 terminal sets then a common wire to the dna + input.

When I was testing with a common fuse shared between the batts vs independent fuse wired to each batt, I had time to pull the batt before the dna fried when using a common fuse - the batt got hot instantly, but the dna didn't fry instantly. The independent fuse on each batt protected both the batts and the DNA.
 

kurtus

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 9, 2012
519
312
Nanaimo, BC
Not really sure, but don't think it's the trip time. Maybe the 4 terminals joined should be separated by an individual wire to each of the 2 terminal sets then a common wire to the DNA + input.

When I was testing with a common fuse shared between the batts vs independent fuse wired to each batt, I had time to pull the batt before the DNA fried when using a common fuse - the batt got hot instantly, but the DNA didn't fry instantly. The independent fuse on each batt protected both the batts and the DNA.
I think this is how I wired it mamu, can you have a look at my images and see if this is what you meant cause I know my discription wasnt great.


Single lead with all 4 sent to the dna + battery on the board


Thanks
 

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
With 4 fuses that close together, there is derating (see my About fuses thread) which may lead to unwanted results from each fuse. Because of the derating you never want more than 2 fuses that close to each other.

But the big concern for the DNA is that with all 4 fuse terminals soldered together there is a common fuse situation on the DNA + input side. A common fuse does not protect the DNA from the huge current dump with reverse polarity.

If it were me, I'd only use one 6A fuse (or 2x 3A fuses) per batt with dual parallel batts for the DNA30 and solder each fuse's free terminal end to an individual wire, then connect those free wire ends with a common wire leading to the DNA + input (see my Arlo thread for how I wire this). Although the fuses are connected down the line by the common wire, the fuse's terminals are independent of each other.

This is also how I wired my DNA30 flip-top mod. I also added a red LED that lights if the batt is in backwards... here I have both batts in backwards...

ft-rp1.jpg


now both batts in correctly... and as you can see, no harm to the DNA or batts from the reverse polarity.
ft-rp2.jpg
 
Last edited:

kurtus

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 9, 2012
519
312
Nanaimo, BC
Ok thx mamu, my only concern was that I needed 12amp protection on each battery because the chip can draw 12 amps so my thinking was that it would trip if I only used 6amp fuse protection on each battery and I was drawing 12amps from the battery. So strange the way this works cause in my head I was doing the same thing and I am but I missed the bit about derating. Appreciate the replies as always mamu. Thx
 

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
With parallel batts, the current is shared. If the DNA can pull up to a total of 12A, each batt in a dual parallel configuration is contributing up to 6A of the total.

If each batt is contributing up to 6A to the circuit, a 6A fuse per batt is good. The fuse won't actually trip though til it gets to the Itrip current.
 

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
update: when I did RP testing with the DNA, the fuses I used for testing did aok for RP protection. But evidently all fuses are not alike as I’m hearing that some fuses provide RP aok and some are not. And some fuses when tripped no longer provide protection even though they are resettable fuses.

I was asked to test Littelfuse smd 7A fuse. Have some interesting results with that.

The pics tell the story... and you know that the fuse is protecting if I have time to take a pic. :laugh:

checking RP for DNA20 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-1.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-2.jpg


checking RP for DNA30 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-3.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-4.jpg


BUT 2x 7A fuses in parallel as shown in setup below is NOT providing RP... I had to yank the batt positive wire immediately as the batt and DNA got hot...
rp-7a-5.jpg


If you're going to test to see if the fuse you have is providing RP, be prepared to remove the BATT immediately if it or the DNA heat up. No damage to the DNA if you're very quick with it. When I check for RP I have my fingers on the back of the DNA board and if it starts to get warm I immediately yank the batt. I do my testing on a breadboard so it is really easy just to yank the positive wire to the batt.

For absolute guaranteed RP protection a P-FET is required. The P-FET compatible with the DNA is SI4477DY. It is an smt part. The pins are fragile so I mount it on a piece of veroboard.

pfet-dna.jpg
 

AfterI

Full Member
Jun 8, 2014
11
2
Watermelon
For absolute guaranteed RP protection a P-FET is required. The P-FET compatible with the DNA is SI4477DY. It is an smt part. The pins are fragile so I mount it on a piece of veroboard.

Hey mamu!

I've changed my mind... I won't build the OKL2 but instead the DNA, I thought that it would be better for a beginner like me.

Does this P-FET suit the DNA 30D? (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-transistors/0415180/) Also would you recommend one or two fuses put together?
Sorry if I ask to much, I am very confused...

Thank you very much!
 
Last edited:

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
Hey mamu!

I've changed my mind... I won't build the OKL2 but instead the DNA, I thought that it would be better for a beginner like me.

Does this P-FET suit the DNA 30D? (Buy MOSFET Transistors TPC8114(TE12L,Q), P-channel MOSFET Transistor 18A 30V, 8-Pin SOP Toshiba TPC8114(TE12L,Q) online from RS for next day delivery.) Also would you recommend one or two fuses put together?
Sorry if I ask to much, I am very confused...

Thank you very much!

The FET you linked should be doable for the DNA30 for reverse polarity protection. You would wire it the same as I wired the Si4477.

For fuses, I like Littelfuse LoRho for smt type and for leaded fuses I like the RGEF series that TE Connectivity makes and the 16R series that Littelfuse makes.

You'll need a total Ihold of 12A. Just divide that total by the number of batts you're going to use and select a fuse with that Ihold.

For example, if you're using 1 batt - select a fuse with an Ihold of 6A and use 2x 6A fuses (parallel).

2x batts - 12A / 2 batts = 6A fuse per batt. Put either 1x 6A fuse per batt, or 2x 3A fuse (parallel) per batt - your option.
 

pfully

Full Member
Feb 20, 2014
10
0
Van Nuys, Ca, USA
The FET you linked should be doable for the DNA30 for reverse polarity protection. You would wire it the same as I wired the Si4477.

For fuses, I like Littelfuse LoRho for smt type and for leaded fuses I like the RGEF series that TE Connectivity makes and the 16R series that Littelfuse makes.

You'll need a total Ihold of 12A. Just divide that total by the number of batts you're going to use and select a fuse with that Ihold.

For example, if you're using 1 batt - select a fuse with an Ihold of 6A and use 2x 6A fuses (parallel).

2x batts - 12A / 2 batts = 6A fuse per batt. Put either 1x 6A fuse per batt, or 2x 3A fuse (parallel) per batt - your option.


Mamu ive been reading about fuses when i ran into this post i understand the Hold, Trip and Voltage but what type of fuse would you recommend on a single battery for a dna30 and would i need a P-FET SI4477DY as well? are this fuses any good Mouser Part #:576-16R600GU ?
 

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
Mamu ive been reading about fuses when i ran into this post i understand the Hold, Trip and Voltage but what type of fuse would you recommend on a single battery for a dna30 and would i need a P-FET SI4477DY as well? are this fuses any good Mouser Part #:576-16R600GU ?

Yes, those fuses are aok - use 2x in parallel for the DNA30.

As for if they also provide reverse polarity protection, I don't know as I haven't tested those.
 

ThreeDJ16

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 19, 2013
3,035
12,291
USA
Hey all! Wow, haven't read this thread in a while, but what a great thread. Tons of information. I have used Mamu's dual bat protection on a bunch of mods now. I have also seen the circuit using the mosfet for low v drop before too. Been wondering if a similar design to the way the dual battery protection works, could also work on a single battery....my thoughts below. Who knows, I could just be drain bramadged. :?:

Anyway, what I was thinking about trying is putting a an axial power diode between the positive and negative battery terminals, after the resettable fuse, but polarity reversed on the diode so no current flows through it when the battery is inserted correctly. But if the battery is put in backwards, the diode shorts the battery and trips the resettable fuse. Anyway, just thought about it last night and can't seem to find any proper diodes in my stash, so will have to try it when I get some in. Just curious if anyone had tried it or if this will even work. I do electrical work, but no electronics designer by any means. So could fry everything. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

Here is a very crappy drawing...sorry. :facepalm:

 

Taledus

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 2, 2014
156
91
Tennessee
I am doing the Arlo mod but saw this thread too. Can you post a link to fuses to use with the DNA 30 chip that will provide the needed protection? Also, right after the fuses on the original post you have red LED's. Is that something that would be good to have on the Arlo mod? If so, there are small transistors going from the battery's positive connector to the LED. Any chance you could provide some info on them (if they are needed).

Thanks for posting all this info on here!

update: when I did RP testing with the DNA, the fuses I used for testing did aok for RP protection. But evidently all fuses are not alike as I’m hearing that some fuses provide RP aok and some are not. And some fuses when tripped no longer provide protection even though they are resettable fuses.

I was asked to test Littelfuse smd 7A fuse. Have some interesting results with that.

The pics tell the story... and you know that the fuse is protecting if I have time to take a pic. :laugh:

checking RP for DNA20 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-1.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-2.jpg


checking RP for DNA30 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-3.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-4.jpg


BUT 2x 7A fuses in parallel as shown in setup below is NOT providing RP... I had to yank the batt positive wire immediately as the batt and DNA got hot...
rp-7a-5.jpg


If you're going to test to see if the fuse you have is providing RP, be prepared to remove the BATT immediately if it or the DNA heat up. No damage to the DNA if you're very quick with it. When I check for RP I have my fingers on the back of the DNA board and if it starts to get warm I immediately yank the batt. I do my testing on a breadboard so it is really easy just to yank the positive wire to the batt.

For absolute guaranteed RP protection a P-FET is required. The P-FET compatible with the DNA is SI4477DY. It is an smt part. The pins are fragile so I mount it on a piece of veroboard.

pfet-dna.jpg

Is there any way someone can put up something similar to this:

http://mamumods.com/pics/arlo-wiring.png

Using the SI4477DY?
 
Last edited:

mamu

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,551
1,523
IN USA
...Anyway, what I was thinking about trying is putting a an axial power diode between the positive and negative battery terminals, after the resettable fuse, but polarity reversed on the diode so no current flows through it when the battery is inserted correctly. But if the battery is put in backwards, the diode shorts the battery and trips the resettable fuse. Anyway, just thought about it last night and can't seem to find any proper diodes in my stash, so will have to try it when I get some in. Just curious if anyone had tried it or if this will even work. I do electrical work, but no electronics designer by any means. So could fry everything. Figured this would be a good place to ask.

Did you get around to testing this?

I am doing the Arlo mod but saw this thread too. Can you post a link to fuses to use with the DNA 30 chip that will provide the needed protection? Also, right after the fuses on the original post you have red LED's. Is that something that would be good to have on the Arlo mod? If so, there are small transistors going from the battery's positive connector to the LED. Any chance you could provide some info on them (if they are needed).

Thanks for posting all this info on here!



Is there any way someone can put up something similar to this:

http://mamumods.com/pics/arlo-wiring.png

Using the SI4477DY?

The fuses I used with the DNA 30 are listed in the Arlo tutorial. Also, the Littelfuse 7A smd fuses will work for both overcurrent and reverse polarity if using 1x on each batt for dual parallel batts (I believe bapgood tested this), but do not if using 2x in parallel on 1 batt (this I tested in this thread).

If you want to use fuses other than what I or bapgood have tested, then you will need to test yourself. Breadboard the works, then put the batts in backwards. Be prepared to immediately yank the batts if they or the DNA start to get hot.

For dual parallel batts, you have to have a P-FET for each batt to protect each batt from reverse polarity. A common P-FET will not work for parallel batts to protect from reverse polarity.

P-FET #1:
Source Pins 1,2,3 wired to DNA + input (solder a wire across all 3 pins then solder the wire to DNA +)
Gate Pin 4 wired to Batt -
Drain Pins 5,6,7,8 wired directly to #1 Batt + (solder a wire across all 4 pins then solder the wire to Batt +)

P-FET #2:
Source Pins 1,2,3 wired to DNA + input (solder a wire across all 3 pins then solder the wire to DNA +)
Gate Pin 4 wired to Batt -
Drain Pins 5,6,7,8 wired directly to #2 Batt + (solder a wire across all 4 pins then solder the wire to Batt +)

Because the P-FET is tiny, I mount it on a host board (a small piece of veroboard), then do the wire soldering to the pins, then use heat shrink tubing over the FET and wiring.

To make it easier to wire to the DNA + input, you can connect the Source pin wiring from each P-FET together with a common wire, then wire the DNA + input with the other end of the common wire.

fet1.png


fet2.png
 
Last edited:

Aal_

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 5, 2012
7,077
18,611
Toronto
update: when I did RP testing with the DNA, the fuses I used for testing did aok for RP protection. But evidently all fuses are not alike as I’m hearing that some fuses provide RP aok and some are not. And some fuses when tripped no longer provide protection even though they are resettable fuses.

I was asked to test Littelfuse smd 7A fuse. Have some interesting results with that.

The pics tell the story... and you know that the fuse is protecting if I have time to take a pic. :laugh:

checking RP for DNA20 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-1.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-2.jpg


checking RP for DNA30 with 1x 7A fuse...
rp-7a-3.jpg


aok after RP...
rp-7a-4.jpg


BUT 2x 7A fuses in parallel as shown in setup below is NOT providing RP... I had to yank the batt positive wire immediately as the batt and DNA got hot...
rp-7a-5.jpg


If you're going to test to see if the fuse you have is providing RP, be prepared to remove the BATT immediately if it or the DNA heat up. No damage to the DNA if you're very quick with it. When I check for RP I have my fingers on the back of the DNA board and if it starts to get warm I immediately yank the batt. I do my testing on a breadboard so it is really easy just to yank the positive wire to the batt.

For absolute guaranteed RP protection a P-FET is required. The P-FET compatible with the DNA is SI4477DY. It is an smt part. The pins are fragile so I mount it on a piece of veroboard.

pfet-dna.jpg

I don't get why this fuse did not work in parallel but the other did.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread