Fallout starting close to home

[DeAnna2112]

Why is there soo many aspects to the vaping industry that lacks common sense and seeks to sabotage itself by bringing on regs..it's just mind boggling. If you are going to sell certain devices that pose a danger to inexperienced users knowing it will likely result in accidents...and those accidents are going to lead to regs...why would any business person not go the extra mile to ensure that customers know the dangers before buying and guide them to something more fitting and safe to prevent these problems.

......Instead what i hear on this forum is it's the users fault for wanting to stop smoking, stops by a shop for the first time to see if vaping is a option for them, and then gets sold a device by store personnel who are fully aware that this person has no working knowledge on how to properly use it safely....and according to some that is ok and the users fault when they get harmed. That is just sick thinking for any industry to practice and be ok with...this is not going to end well for the vaping industry so let's just sit back and see how it works out for those who are ok with these types of practices and oppose common sense business practices to avoid regs.

 

[Bad Ninja]

If this is how the world of vaping is going to work... then i am ashamed to be apart of this aspect of it and see it's down fall coming. Any vaping business that does business this way shouldn't be in business and deserves to be sued and this why they are being sued and losing badly.
So let them continue to be rightfully sued...regs soon will follow thanks to them and those who support their way of doing business..but let's not forget who to point the finger at when it happens though and all the kicking and crying starts.

This is how the world works.

As an adult we have to take responsibility for our own choices.

Expecting other to be responsible For our safety isn't very mature.

 

[skoony]

If this is how the world of vaping is going to work... then i am ashamed to be apart of this aspect of it and see it's down fall coming. Any vaping business that does business this way shouldn't be in business and deserves to be sued and this why they are being sued and losing badly.
So let them continue to be rightfully sued...regs soon will follow thanks to them and those who support their way of doing business..but let's not forget who to point the finger at when it happens though and all the kicking and crying starts.

We are going to be regulated no mater what the vendors,you or, I do or, don't do. The law suites themselves
are sufficient to regulate the safety issues. The FDA doesn't give on hoot about our safety or the lack of
warnings nor a cloud chaser ambushing gramma in the cereal isle at Walmart. If the B&M's are starting to
pull these devices it won't be long before the online vendors do. That would still leave China. Perhaps that's
the best route at this point. All this with no regulations.
Pointing fingers at the vendors for our woe's isn't the answer. The vendors sell these items because their
customers want the products. 99% of these accidents are not caused by customers who didn't know the
dangers. They were caused by customers who thought they knew what they were doing.
You can warn the customers till the cows come home. All you'll get in return is shut up and take my
money.

Regards
Mike

 

[DeAnna2112]

This is how the world works.

As an adult we have to take responsibility for our own choices.

Expecting other to be responsible For our safety isn't very mature.

Well i guess we will see in time how well your way of thinking in how businesses should conducts themselves works out for the vaping industry.

 

[papergoblin]

Why is there soo many aspects to the vaping industry that lacks common sense and seeks to sabotage itself by bringing on regs..it's just mind boggling. If you are going to sell certain devices that pose a danger to inexperienced users knowing it will likely result in accidents...and those accidents are going to lead to regs...why would any business person not go the extra mile to ensure that customers know the dangers before buying and guide them to something more fitting and safe to prevent these problems.

......Instead what i hear on this forum is it's the users fault for wanting to stop smoking, stops by a shop for the first time to see if vaping is a option for them, and then gets sold a device by store personnel who are fully aware that this person has no working knowledge on how to properly use it safely....and according to some that is ok and the users fault when they get harmed. That is just sick thinking for any industry to practice and be ok with...this is not going to end well for the vaping industry so let's just sit back and see how it works out for those who are ok with these types of practices and oppose common sense business practices to avoid regs.

No I have advocated stores should be honest and safe in their practices but at the same time people need to check what they are being told is correct.
Look at ecigs like cars:
cigalikes- small entry cars low horsepower, think Suzuk and Kia
ego batteries- still entry level but a little higher up, think Honda and Mazda
VW devices- more advanced more features more horsepower, think top of line model Honda, Mazda or Cadillac, Chevrolet etc.
Mech. mods- brute power unrefined, think restored 1960's muscle cars, hotrods, race cars, etc.

Not every person is suited to handle certain things and that's okay but how many times have people jumped into more car than they could handle and killed someone. It's no different, while some people are taken advantage of by shops, there are many more that jump into the deep end of the pool before learning to swim. People get scammed all the time, usually though they play a part in their own downfall. People don't get second opinions or ask why they need this over that.

I've see clerks sell ego kits, explain all the ins and outs but some people still come back because they don't understand how to fill the tank. Just in a starter kit, there is a lot of new info thrown at someone but I have only rarely ever seen anyone ask a clerk to write down the instructions. People get overwhelmed by the experience and don't truly realized what is involved with even the most basic of setups. Then there is the other side where some people see all these big mods and think I don't want some newbie kit, they want to learn to play Van Halen and skip the twinkle little start. The fact is those understanding simple ecigs and how it works is the basic building block to learning VW and mech. devices. If you can't add 1+1, you can't do algebra, it's all relative. So while there are some shops/clerks that are horrible with customers, there are customers that are lazy/too cool for school as well, now knowing which is which when things happen is the big question.

 

[roxynoodle]

From what I saw of the draft, mech mods are most certainly not going to be available. Mods must have all the built in safety features: protection for shorts, reverse battery, overheating, etc.

And since I don't expect many mod makers of any type to go through the expensive, nearly impossible process of the application, I'm not expecting to see regulated mods either.

 

[skoony]

Why is there soo many aspects to the vaping industry that lacks common sense and seeks to sabotage itself by bringing on regs..it's just mind boggling.

The industry is not bringing on regulations. The FDA is for their own very different reasons.
Look at it this way. What do you think would happen if the industry was left alone for
just another 5 years? I have a pretty good idea things will be much different. Most if not
all of these sorts of issues would have sorted themselves out with out one single unnecessary
new regulation. We are seeing an industry as it starts to mature. The vendors can and do listen.
As of this date there is nothing concerning vaping that current regulations can't handle.
There is a reason the Tobacco company's have never been tried in a criminal case.
The government would actually have to prove the dangers of tobacco. Begging for
regulations when the problems are correcting themselves is not the answer.

Regards
Mike

 

[papergoblin]

From what I saw of the draft, mech mods are most certainly not going to be available. Mods must have all the built in safety features: protection for shorts, reverse battery, overheating, etc.

And since I don't expect many mod makers of any type to go through the expensive, nearly impossible process of the application, I'm not expecting to see regulated mods either.

Hard to outlaw flashlights though, lol. They can ban new production or importation of mechanical mods but can they ban the importation of all metal tubed flashlights? This is just one example of how broad of a reach they want to go and why it will be more like nothing but prefilled carto tanks for sale and a ban on anything you can rebuild or add liquid to.

 

[roxynoodle]

Hard to outlaw flashlights though, lol. They can ban new production or importation of mechanical mods but can they ban the importation of all metal tubed flashlights? This is just one example of how broad of a reach they want to go and why it will be more like nothing but prefilled carto tanks for sale and a ban on anything you can rebuild or add liquid to.

Yep,we can certainly make them

In fact I think it would be wise to keep any dead mod for spare parts. Or remove the board and wire up a mosfet.

 

[WillieB69]

Let's be honest here, and accept the
Responsibility.

You are an adult who carelessly purchased an item you did not fully understand.

Do you expect the doughnut shop employee to educate you about nutrition and a healthy diet?

People have tried to sue Apple for laptop batteries exploding on their crotches.
Take a guess how many were successful?

That is out and out BS.

It just makes logical business sense to be educated on the equipment you're selling and to educate the people who are buying it. Sure, people are responsible for their own decisions but as a business owner or a sales person, you're just as responsible to make sure your customers are aware of what they are getting into before you sell it to them. Anyone involved in sales should know what they're selling and who they are selling it to. You find the product that suits the customer. Happy customers come back. Customers who blow themselves up because you sold them a mech mod, ....ty batteries and whatever atomizer you happened to grab off the shelf generally don't come back. They sue you and with good reason. It doesn't take 30 seconds to ask a customer if they've used a particular type of device before and if they know how to operate it correctly. If they say yes and they don't, then it's on them.

One doughnut isn't going to kill or maim you if you eat it incorrectly. You might get jelly on your shirt though. If you're a diabetic and know it, chances are you already know a doughnut might be risky. Then it's on you.

Batteries exploding in a laptop are caused by either a design flaw or overheating due to poor ventilation. If it's a design flaw, Apple SHOULD pay up. And how many people knew the risks of a laptop overheating because it was on your lap and couldn't ventilate properly before a few of these made the news? Now it's fairly common knowledge. It doesn't seem like anything particularly dangerous to do but it is. But people still need to be told or likely won't think anything about it. Who's going to go online and Google, "can I put my laptop on my lap?"

Try going into a gun shop as a first time gun owner and see if the salesperson will hand over a .50 cal semi automatic rifle. If he does, it would probably be the last time I frequented that shop because the sales people don't know what they're selling, they don't understand their customer and they probably don't care. Not a happy ending for anyone involved.

 

[Ryedan]

From what I saw of the draft, mech mods are most certainly not going to be available. Mods must have all the built in safety features: protection for shorts, reverse battery, overheating, etc.

It's been a while since I've read some of the proposed FDA regulations and I didn't remember that. I just read a summary of the proposed regs and it is indeed in there, though they do not include actual requirements for anything so what will come out of it will be determined over time. Mech mods should though not make the cut IMO.

 

[roxynoodle]

It's been a while since I've read some of the proposed FDA regulations and I didn't remember that. I just read a summary of the proposed regs and it is indeed in there, though they do not include actual requirements for anything so what will come out of it will be determined over time. Mech mods should though not make the cut IMO.

Someone posted the page with their proposed regs for mods in the TVECA thread. Based on that, no mechs.

 

[skoony]

That is out and out BS.

It just makes logical business sense to be educated on the equipment you're selling and to educate the people who are buying it. Sure, people are responsible for their own decisions but as a business owner or a sales person, you're just as responsible to make sure your customers are aware of what they are getting into before you sell it to them. Anyone involved in sales should know what they're selling and who they are selling it to. You find the product that suits the customer. Happy customers come back. Customers who blow themselves up because you sold them a mech mod, ....ty batteries and whatever atomizer you happened to grab off the shelf generally don't come back. They sue you and with good reason. It doesn't take 30 seconds to ask a customer if they've used a particular type of device before and if they know how to operate it correctly. If they say yes and they don't, then it's on them.

One doughnut isn't going to kill or maim you if you eat it incorrectly. You might get jelly on your shirt though. If you're a diabetic and know it, chances are you already know a doughnut might be risky. Then it's on you.

Batteries exploding in a laptop are caused by either a design flaw or overheating due to poor ventilation. If it's a design flaw, Apple SHOULD pay up. And how many people knew the risks of a laptop overheating because it was on your lap and couldn't ventilate properly before a few of these made the news? Now it's fairly common knowledge. It doesn't seem like anything particularly dangerous to do but it is. But people still need to be told or likely won't think anything about it. Who's going to go online and Google, "can I put my laptop on my lap?"

Try going into a gun shop as a first time gun owner and see if the salesperson will hand over a .50 cal semi automatic rifle. If he does, it would probably be the last time I frequented that shop because the sales people don't know what they're selling, they don't understand their customer and they probably don't care. Not a happy ending for anyone involved.

You would be right if these were accidents. They are not. There is no indication
these were impulse purchases. Most if not all of these injuries are being caused
by unregulated mods. I do not buy the vendors are not telling their customers
of the danger nor that in these last two cases the victims claims of ignorance
are truthful.
Regards
Mike

 

[WillieB69]

You would be right if these were accidents. They are not. There is no indication
these were impulse purchases. Most if not all of these injuries are being caused
by unregulated mods. I do not buy the vendors are not telling their customers
of the danger nor that in these last two cases the victims claims of ignorance
are truthful.
Regards
Mike

I can tell you straight up one guy at the local B&M tried to sell me a mech with a Kanger Subtank mini the first time I went in there. Nothing about ohms law or any other safety precautions. Fortunately, I was just there for juice and didn't buy it.

It was two months after that when I found out that could be a dangerous combo on this forum but only AFTER I had tried it on another mech. I assumed it would be safe because that is what the guy tried to sell me. Fortuantely I didn't blow myself up in the process and was warned by forum members not to try it again.

Now how would that have played out if I had bought that setup from that vendor and it HAD blown up? You can bet your nether regions I would have sued them. They said it was safe so they would be liable for giving me incorrect info.

I'm not saying this would be the case with ALL vendors but it does happen. Vendors need to be sure their sales people know what they are doing and what they are selling. We're only giving the government more excuses to shut down the industry otherwise.

 

[skoony]

I can tell you straight up one guy at the local B&M tried to sell me a mech with a Kanger Subtank mini the first time I went in there. Nothing about ohms law or any other safety precautions. Fortunately, I was just there for juice and didn't buy it.

It was two months after that when I found out that could be a dangerous combo on this forum but only AFTER I had tried it on another mech. I assumed it would be safe because that is what the guy tried to sell me. Fortuantely I didn't blow myself up in the process and was warned by forum members not to try it again.

Now how would that have played out if I had bought that setup from that vendor and it HAD blown up? You can bet your nether regions I would have sued them. They said it was safe so they would be liable for giving me incorrect info.

I'm not saying this would be the case with ALL vendors but it does happen. Vendors need to be sure their sales people know what they are doing and what they are selling. We're only giving the government more excuses to shut down the industry otherwise.

Pictures?
Mike

 

[Ryedan]

Let's be honest here, and accept the
Responsibility.

You are an adult who carelessly purchased an item you did not fully understand.

Anyone who sells a product that has known safety concerns that are not obvious to everyone and does not include appropriate information about that safety concern and what is needed to be safe when using the product should be considered negligent and responsible for damages.

Your belief that this level of consumer protection should not be required is quite outdated. I'm not one to sue frivolously, but I don't consider lawsuits in cases like these frivolous. If manufacturers and retailers were more safety conscious and ethical this sort of thing wouldn't happen as often as it does and government regulation would not be needed as often either.

I doubt many people would enjoy it if society didn't hold this belief. Life in the 'wild west' makes for great TV, but I'm good with leaving those attitudes behind.

 

[papergoblin]

That is out and out BS.

It just makes logical business sense to be educated on the equipment you're selling and to educate the people who are buying it. Sure, people are responsible for their own decisions but as a business owner or a sales person, you're just as responsible to make sure your customers are aware of what they are getting into before you sell it to them. Anyone involved in sales should know what they're selling and who they are selling it to. You find the product that suits the customer. Happy customers come back. Customers who blow themselves up because you sold them a mech mod, ....ty batteries and whatever atomizer you happened to grab off the shelf generally don't come back. They sue you and with good reason. It doesn't take 30 seconds to ask a customer if they've used a particular type of device before and if they know how to operate it correctly. If they say yes and they don't, then it's on them.

One doughnut isn't going to kill or maim you if you eat it incorrectly. You might get jelly on your shirt though. If you're a diabetic and know it, chances are you already know a doughnut might be risky. Then it's on you.

Batteries exploding in a laptop are caused by either a design flaw or overheating due to poor ventilation. If it's a design flaw, Apple SHOULD pay up. And how many people knew the risks of a laptop overheating because it was on your lap and couldn't ventilate properly before a few of these made the news? Now it's fairly common knowledge. It doesn't seem like anything particularly dangerous to do but it is. But people still need to be told or likely won't think anything about it. Who's going to go online and Google, "can I put my laptop on my lap?"

Try going into a gun shop as a first time gun owner and see if the salesperson will hand over a .50 cal semi automatic rifle. If he does, it would probably be the last time I frequented that shop because the sales people don't know what they're selling, they don't understand their customer and they probably don't care. Not a happy ending for anyone involved.

First I have been in quite a few shops where clerks were not aware of what they were selling and not just in vape shops. I have been in shops where clerks have told people not to use this or that and suggest the customer buy a different device, some customers do and some buy what they want and cannot be told different.

Laptops, well if you can't put it in you lap, don't call it a laptop, lol.

I have worked in a gun shop, if the customer wants a .50 and has the cash, then the customer can get a .50. Now good people will explain what they customer is about to dive into but in the end, the customer can buy whatever they want, so long as it's legal.

You would be right if these were accidents. They are not. There is no indication
these were impulse purchases. Most if not all of these injuries are being caused
by unregulated mods. I do not buy the vendors are not telling their customers
of the danger nor that in these last two cases the victims claims of ignorance
are truthful.
Regards
Mike

I'm sure there are stores out there with less the stellar practices and/or employees but like you are stating, not ever single incident is because a consumer didn't know. I'm sure some didn't and some just pushed the limits for whatever reason. A clerk can explain a mod and battery but that doesn't mean someone isn't going online and buying the cheapest battery they can thinking they are all the same. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people that get hurt or have close calls, have purchased from an online auction site. Many of the sellers don't know what's real or fake and many don't care either. The whole thing is a double edged sword.

 

[WillieB69]

Pictures?
Mike

Pictures of what? The guy trying to sell me a mod and a Kanger Subtank??

 

[Rabbit Slayer]

Blame the mod makers for designing a dangerous product in the first place.

Do hybrid topcaps really add to the mod's conductivity that greatly or are they just way cheaper to make?

And the "vent" holes in a mech should be able to actually vent the expanding gasses of a battery w/out any restrictions or they are basically selling people pipe-bombs waiting to happen

 

[skoony]

Pictures of what? The guy trying to sell me a mod and a Kanger Subtank??

I decided to treat bad vendor stories the same as as the cloud blowers in
the cereal isles story's. Hundreds of reported encounters,zero pictures.
I see more evidence supporting Big Foot.
Mike